Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I would not play the deck without Burning Wish. It adds WAY to much consistency, especially when you have to mull to 5 or lower to get the cards you need against a specific deck.
First thing, I took my build to my local tournament last wednesday and got REALLY bad matchups and had serious bad luck. I swear, everytime I bring the deck up there, out of 25ish people there are maybe 4 playing mono-colored decks and I get to play against 2-3 everytime, not Dreadstill, not Landstill, basically nothing blue with non-basics. I play against fucking Death and Taxes with 3 or 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain in the MAIN and Suicide Black with Extirpates in the main! Oh well, here is how the tournament went:
Round 1: Death and Taxes (unreg)
g1: Turn 2 Samurai followed by Stone Cloaker saving his threats ...
g2: Devastating Deams on turn ..... 18 seals it.
g3: We go to time, I would have won had he not had 3 consecutive StP on Factory, Treetop, Factory. I get him down to 2 life and have him stalled on 1 land in turns (Ghost Quarter). Given 1 more fucking turn I would have won this hideous matchup.
Round 2: Belcher (unreg)
Another hideous matchup, I manage to WIN!!!!
g1: I mull to 6 trying to find Crop Rotation and hope he goes for the Empty the Warrens kill. He does and I Crop Rotate into Tabernacle and win shortly after.
g2: I keep a hand based on the idea that he is going to mull into the Belcher kill because Empty sucks ... he doesn't and Empties for 12 on turn 1. I am forced to Burning Wish for Gamble, then Gamble for Tabernacle and with 6 cards in hand he picks the fucking Tabernacle .. next game.
g3: For fifth game in a row I get to mulligan, WOOT! I get turn 1 Exploration with Crop Rotation in hand (ready for Belcher), drop another land and get ready. He drops Belcher but isn't able to activate it. On his next turn he can't activate it either and I Burning Wish into Shattering Spree and destroy Belcher. Then the beatdown starts. He draws into enough acceleration and kill sources and while at 2 life he is able to double Seething Song into Belcher but I just put the activation on the stack and Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm. When the deck is good .... its really good!
Round 3: Suicide Black (mono) with Extirpate in the main (braves)
g1: Within the first 5 turns Exploration and Loam are Extirpated. I end up winning with EE recursion, Maze of Ith on Tombstalker, and random Glacial Chasm stalls.
g2: Mull to 5 trying to find a hand that is not all lands. Keep a hideous hand and lose to Leyline.
g3: Goes something like this: mull to 5 trying to find spells, keep an awful hand of something like Mox Diamond, Burning Wish, EE, land, land and see turn 1 double Dark Ritual into Hippie and Dark Confidant which is followed up by another Confidant after I kill the first. Yep I lose quickly.
Round 4: Goyf Sligh (unreg)
This is fucking ridiculous, I am not sure if I could have gotten worse pairings but whatever.
g1: I lose to burn spells ...
g2: I side in my secret tech of Circle of Protection: Red and WIN WIN WIN!!!!!
g3: I make a SAVAGE misplay and most likely lose because of it. I mull to 6 trying to find COP Red and keep the hand. Around turn 9 or so he plays a Magus of the Moon, which is fine I don't really care as the deck is just laughing at me (as it has been the whole tournament) and I can't draw relevant cards anyway. I am at 10 and he has a Seal of Fire on the board, all his lands are tapped but he does have 2 Mountains when he plays Quirion Dryad and then Chain Lightnings me. I immediately look to see how much damage he can deal to me and it is 6 if I decide to take Chain Lighting (so I can Chain it back since I have mountains) assuming he has Fireblast in hand and Seals me putting me to 1 life. So I take the Chain Lightning and with my 2 open mountains I Chain it back into the Dryad!! I had a Maze of Ith in play but I was over-analyzing the situation because I was at such low life I was thinking about the Dryad being green and how I would not be able to prevent the damage, especially if Goyf joined the fight so I kill the green creature. I should have killed the Magus but ..... oh well. I will chalk that one up to immense frustration. I ended up 1-2-1 but assuming I would the last round I could have been 2-1-1 and I don't think that owuld have been good enough for top 8. Bad times.
Anyway, this whole mishap got me thinking, this deck has horrid Burn and Suicide Black matchups so I tried to think what the best answer to this was. COP Red is SPECTACULAR, OMG, I was SOOO wrong about it being effective, it just shuts them down. Highly recommended! So then I started thinking about COP Black against Suicide variants but the problem is that the SB can't be occupied by 6x COPs. But it could be occupied by 2 of each with a single Enlightened Tutor in the main, so its like playing 3! On its own Enlightened fetches Exploration, Crucible, EE, and Mox Diamond if needed so it is pretty good anyway! Here is my new list and SB:
3x Life From the Loam
4x Burning Wish
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Gamble
3x Crop Rotation
4x Exploration
1x Intuition
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Barbarian Ring
3x Taiga
3x Wasteland (I'm trying 3 for now but I still think 4 is the right number)
4x Mishra's Factory
3 Maze of Ith
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Treetop Village
1x Tabernacle
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tropical Island
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Savannah
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Ghost Quarter
SB
1x Loam
1x Flame Jab
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Gamble
1x Regrowth
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Circle of Protection: Black
3x Krosan Grip
I don't think the combo hate is really necessary. This deck has no clock at all so while they find a quick answer to Trinisphere you can't put enough pressure on them for it to really matter. But, either way, when I build a SB I like to make semi-bad to decent matchups even better, and unless there is one card that will just totally own a certain matchup I will never dedicate more than 4x slots towards a matchup that, even after SB, is still hideous at best.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I'm now playing with this deck after a few modifications...
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [5E] Armageddon
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [US] Smokestack
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
1 [DIS] Research/Development
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 [SOK] Kagemaro, First to Suffer
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
I still don't think Burning Wish is necessary, Research/Development can do half the job Burning Wish was supposed to do (and a lot less but also a lot more with the Development side not being totally dead as well as tutoring for cards Burning Wish can't and then tutor them up with Intuition or Crop Rotation or just draw them with Horizon Canopy)
Glacial Chasm: After our discussion I realized Glacial Chasm was actually quite a bad card, never doing what we really wanted it to do. I swaped it for the last Maze of Ith, a card that definitely does what it's meant for!
Urborg: I wanted to compensate the number of non-mana land we play and with Volrath Main Deck and Kagemaro in the SB another black source of mana was welcome too.
Wasteland: I agreee that I'd like to play 4 as well, but if I have to cut one land it's Wasteland... I'd like to compensate with the 4th Crop Rotation but the only card I could see going is one Armageddon or the Smokestack and in the end I think they're stronger than Crop Rotation in their own right (it's important to be able to Intuition for Witness and 2 'Geddon when needed)
Intuition: This deck definitely needs 4 Intuition! Or at least Gifts Ungiven or even Gamble but it's crazy not to use more tutor in this deck... And I don't think Burning Wish replaces Intuition. (Speaking of which, I also think it's crazyness not to play 4 Krosan Grip in the board)
Research/Development: A weird choice but it is very good against graveyard-hate in a deck full of tutor... Earwig Squad, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Extirpate and Leyline of the Void are all cards widely played sometimes even MD and I feel like having a way to put these card back in the deck is often enough if we can slow down the game to the point we can tutor them back when needed. It is also good to throw 4 Krosan Grip in your deck Game 1 against many decks (or other SB cards). The development side of the card is very rarely played but it's nice way to make the card never dead.
(SB) Chalice of the Void: I didn't like Chalice of the Void in the Sideboard because even if we can tiem it the way we want a CotV set at 1 will slow us down a lot, usually as much as the opponent.
(SB) Trinisphere vs. Sphere of Resistance: I realized most combo decks in Legacy are stopped as much by Sphere as by 3sphere, if not more (Aluren, Belcher)... And having 3 mana on the first turn is very difficult whereas 2 is quite common. As we're most often going to have to win a game on the draw against combo if we want to win (lose the first one, win the second one, third game on the draw) it's more realistic to play Sphere of Resistance over Trinisphere.
(SB) Ethersworn Canonist: Dropping the number of Trinisphere I wanted another good 2-drop against combo. I hesitated between Thorn of Amethyst, Pyrostatic Pillar and Ethersworn Canonist but in the end opted for the Alara Rare... We have two ways to recur it and it's good to have a clock against combo as it is difficult to really hardlock them out of the game and if we have to win game 3 we might have some time issues as well! I even think about having 3 Ethersworn Canonist and no Trinisphere in the board... This is also why I play Plateau over Taiga.
(SB) Spore Frog: This is a try at countering one of our worst matchup: Aggro-Loam... Recurring Volrath's Stronghold and then Spore Frog can be a way to stop them, mostly post-SB as most build wouldn't run much creature hate post-SB against us... I would like to play Pithing Needle set on Wasteland together with the Fog Frog against Aggro-Loam but SB space is lacking... Spore Frog recursion is also randomly good against most aggro-deck even if almost all of them play Wasteland in Legacy.
(SB) Kagemaro, First to Suffer: He is very very strong against most aggro deck in Legacy. He can kill most creatures short of some Goyfs', Terravore, Countryside Crusher and Phyrexian Dreadnought. It is easy to have a full grip with the deck using Life from the Loam or recuring Horizon Canopy. Of course he is recuring himself as well thanks to Volrath's Stronghold and in a pinch he can be an alternate win condition. So far he has been very good.
(SB) Zuran Orb: Against Burn I'd definitely rather have CoP: Red but Zorb is easier to tutor for and can be randomly good against decks where CoP: Red is dead... I still don't like the card and I could swap it for Pithing Needle depending on the metagame...
My next tournament is on January 11th, I'll tell you how I did.
I hope I won't have to face Aggro-Loam or Solidarity/Belcher/ANT, they are the decks I fear the most and actually the only deck I fear!...
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Laurent Fleury
He can kill most creatures short of some Goyfs', Terravore, Countryside Crusher and Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Are there really any other creatures that you want to kill? I don't know if Kagemaro is worth the card slot... it just seems like something like Damnation would be better, since even though it can't be recurred with Stronghold, it can be recurred with Eternal Witness, which can be recurred with Stronghold. Hell, I think I would even rather play Reiver Demon in that slot, since the only widely played creatures that it doesn't kill are Dreadnought and Confidant... and it doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it.
It pains me to say it, because I love Kagemaro... but I don't think there is a place for him in Legacy.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Laurent Fleury
(SB) Spore Frog: This is a try at countering one of our worst matchup: Aggro-Loam... Recurring Volrath's Stronghold and then Spore Frog can be a way to stop them, mostly post-SB as most build wouldn't run much creature hate post-SB against us... I would like to play Pithing Needle set on Wasteland together with the Fog Frog against Aggro-Loam but SB space is lacking... Spore Frog recursion is also randomly good against most aggro-deck even if almost all of them play Wasteland in Legacy.
(SB) Zuran Orb: Against Burn I'd definitely rather have CoP: Red but Zorb is easier to tutor for and can be randomly good against decks where CoP: Red is dead... I still don't like the card and I could swap it for Pithing Needle depending on the metagame...
Both of these cards are also relevant against the ichorid MU, as Z Orb can eat activated factories and vills to RFG bridges and spore frog stops a wave of ichorids as well as RFGing the bridges. OBV better cards just for ichorid, but I suppose you have some game vs ichorid G2 and G3 since you dropped chasm.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roman Candle
Are there really any other creatures that you want to kill? I don't know if Kagemaro is worth the card slot... it just seems like something like Damnation would be better, since even though it can't be recurred with Stronghold, it can be recurred with Eternal Witness, which can be recurred with Stronghold. Hell, I think I would even rather play Reiver Demon in that slot, since the only widely played creatures that it doesn't kill are Dreadnought and Confidant... and it doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it.
It pains me to say it, because I love Kagemaro... but I don't think there is a place for him in Legacy.
Well of course! It kills Dark Confidant, Kird Ape, all Goblins, all Elves, all Faeries, Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Nimble Mongoose, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, Birds of Paradise and so many other widely played creature.
On defense he can also easily kill Tarmogoyf or Phyrexian Dreadnought.
And 3BB is still more realistic than 4BBBB... And I feel the advantage of being a creature (aka alternate win condition and easy to recur with Stronghold) makes it better than Damnation as well...
As for the Dredge matchup, it sounds a little bit too optimistic to me to think one spore frog can make the difference but that's a nice plus... To be honest, we don't have any good regular Dredge player in Nagoya so I didn't put too much thougtht in the matchup... It mustn't be great even if I can see many ways for Eternal Garden to win (Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Manlands, Crypt, Engineered Explosives, ...)
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Laurent Fleury
Well of course! It kills Dark Confidant, Kird Ape, all Goblins, all Elves, all Faeries, Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Nimble Mongoose, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, Birds of Paradise and so many other widely played creature.
But Damnation hits all of them, and doesn't need a full mitt of cards to do it. Damnation is pretty easy to recur with Stronghold, too, if you have Witness. It also costs one less, and can't be Stifled.
And I have a hard time believing that Kagemaro has won you a relevant amount of games in the red zone.
I think Kagemaro falls under Danger of Cool Things.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
If it works, play it. Kagemaro seems inferior to Devastating Dreams, or just simply Burning Wish targets in general. But if it works in your meta, run it.
As long as you know how to play against Dredge the matchup is easy as hell. They have no answers at all for Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm. THe land destruction in particular hurts them. Just mulligan into a hand with Crop Rotation and/or EE in it and you will have no problems with the matchup. Especially a turn 1 Tabernacle, it is devastating since thye can't keep their zombies EVER. But, the key to the matchup, kill their lands ASAP and save Crop Rotation until things start looking bad. The whole time you are just setting up for a Chasm lock, and once you have it just tell them and they will most likely quit and go to the next game since they have no answers for this (even after SB since no one plays Leyline anymore). But the matchup is nearly unwinnable for Dredge, expect to win around 85-95% of the time, it is that bad for them.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pulp_Fiction
But the matchup is nearly unwinnable for Dredge, expect to win around 85-95% of the time, it is that bad for them.
Do you playtest against your little sister or what?
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Do you? Does your build run Crop Rotation? Tabernacle? Wasteland? EE? Chasm?
I have played against Dredge no fewer than 4 times in a tournament setting and never lost a game with Eternal Garden. In playtesting I have rarely ever lost a match to Dredge. The only way they have a chance is you mulligan into garbage or decide to keep a hand reliant on Gamble and they pick the card then go nuts the next turn. Instead of posting ignorant comments like this maybe it would be good to actually post a question that people want to answer or is actually phrased in a way as to provide information to people who read the thread.
Never played against Dredge/Ichorid in a tournament setting? OK, please comment when you have played against the deck, how the matches went, how you won/lost, what you could do differently. This is helpful, asking ignorant questions is not.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Hey guys,
Well, I recently picked up a $50 Italian Tabernacle at my local card store so I now feel obligated to play any deck that runs one. :tongue: I already play and do fairly well with Mono W Stax and I feel that the next step is Eternal Garden as Stax and Garden share many of the same cards. Now I'm new to this deck and I have a few questions.
Whats the difference between this and 43land.dec?
Now, i believe that the difference is less reliance on LftL and more of a focus on CoW? Is this the case? I noticed that this deck is much more resilient than 43 land as it has a back plan if LftL gets Extirpated, Crypted, Relic'd, etc.
Upon little testing, I feel that burning wish is %100 must. I believe Research/Development is an inferior substitute. Just shuffling the cards that you need into your deck does not get the job done when there's a Chalice at one eating you alive. Wish is an excellent backup plan against GY hate and I think that it is a great game plan to have that kindof backup in a deck so susceptible to GY hate.
What man lands should I play?
I noticed that there are many possible man lands. Treetop Village, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monastery, etc. I noticed that in some lists, people tend to leave out Monastery. I feel as if this is a mistake as Monestery is a complete powerhouse. What are people's thoughts on Mutavault? Whats the best man lands configuration?
And finally, how the hell does this deck beat combo?
I tested this against Gobbos (which I destroyed), UWb Landstill (I won after I Wished for an Extirpated LftL) and ANT (destroyed). How do I beat ANT? Unless I'm missing something, I do believe that Chasm does not stop Tendrils. What's our game plan? Do we SB in 3spheres and CotV? Or do we know it's a loss cause and we don't even SB at all? Or am I just missing something and we actually destroy combo?
Thanks for the help guys,
G59
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guevera59
Whats the difference between this and 43land.dec?
Now, i believe that the difference is less reliance on LftL and more of a focus on CoW? Is this the case? I noticed that this deck is much more resilient than 43 land as it has a back plan if LftL gets Extirpated, Crypted, Relic'd, etc.
Correct. Most Eternal Garden lists play 4 CoW and 1 LftL. 43Lands is more focussed on dropping your hand with Manabond, drawing cards with Cycle Lands and Loam and attack with many manlands. (This is my understanding of 43lands, sorry, i never played it myself).
Eternal Garden is more a toolbox deck with Intuition and Crop Rotation, recurring Engineered Explosives, lockdown with Smokestack, recurring Barbarian Ring and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guevera59
Upon little testing, I feel that burning wish is %100 must. I believe Research/Development is an inferior substitute. Just shuffling the cards that you need into your deck does not get the job done when there's a Chalice at one eating you alive. Wish is an excellent backup plan against GY hate and I think that it is a great game plan to have that kindof backup in a deck so susceptible to GY hate.
People are still arguing about Burning Wish. If you have it, you have hardly no room for Trinisphere and Chalice anymore, which you need against fast combo. The question is, if 4 Krosan Grip against Leyline and Crypt aren't sufficient against GY hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guevera59
What man lands should I play?
I noticed that there are many possible man lands. Treetop Village, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monastery, etc. I noticed that in some lists, people tend to leave out Monastery. I feel as if this is a mistake as Monestery is a complete powerhouse. What are people's thoughts on Mutavault? Whats the best man lands configuration?
Mishra's Factory are obviously better than Mutavault. The best configuration depends on how your game plan is and how your deck is built. If you must support many colors or plan to control the early game, rather than attack, I'd recommend to play 1 Treetop/1 Factory and 1 Monastery.
If you play with less colors, 4 Factory would be better.
In fact I think no one can really tell you, which and how many man lands you should play. It comes down to personal preference in the end I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guevera59
And finally, how the hell does this deck beat combo?
I tested this against Gobbos (which I destroyed), UWb Landstill (I won after I Wished for an Extirpated LftL) and ANT (destroyed). How do I beat ANT? Unless I'm missing something, I do believe that Chasm does not stop Tendrils. What's our game plan? Do we SB in 3spheres and CotV? Or do we know it's a loss cause and we don't even SB at all? Or am I just missing something and we actually destroy combo?
Yes, Chasm does not stop Tendrils. Trinisphere and Chalice should do their job quite well here.
But then again: If you have a Wishboard, there's not much room for 7-8 cards (chalice + 3sphere).
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I do not play this deck, but thought this could be useful:
Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
[TAP], Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Too slow and too much a creature.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maveric78f
Too slow and too much a creature.
Haha. I thought that was funny, it's super true tho, this deck is powerful because it plays no creatures, it makes decks with alot of creature hate, have alot of dead cards.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
With the spoiling of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, I immediately thought of this deck as a place where cards in that cycle could be profitably placed.
Given the number of lands this deck runs, and the numerous ways which it has to sacrifice and recur them, this land and the others presumably like it seem like natural fits. I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of others on this, although meaningful discussion will likely have to wait until more of these types of cards are spoiled.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
The problem is, that you need 5 other Mountains (and likely 5 others of each basic land type for each land of the cycle, if any) and try to get 5 mountains with Eternal Garden...
Getting 5 Forests is most likely with this deck, but even that is hard considering the high amount of nondual-nonbasic lands like Maze.
It might be possible to make those lands work in that deck, but it would need another land base. (more basic land types) I don't think it is worth it. Barbarian Ring should be good enough if you have board control.
Maybe the black land (with Urborg, ToY) would work.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
So there was no love for this deck before the spoiling of the new land card?
A land.dec made top8 at gencon so it can do something! I searched up a thread for 43lands.dec aswell and that is completely dead. Too bad i say! It's a fun deck.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
It is fun, and VERY hard to play right which makes me like them even more. But the problem with the decks is there genuinely is no reason to play them over other decks. Unless you meta is 100% goblins and Dredge ... no reason to play the deck. With decks playing maindeck Relics and Leyline and Crypt all over the place, the deck really just isn't as good. All the Lands! decks are incredibly bad ass, but why play one when you could play Aggro Loam? They are fun ... HELL YEAH, but that is basically it.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Argh, don't say that.
Maybe it's been reviewed before, but what are the pro's and con's between a land.dec and aggroloam?
I like playing a deck with no creatures for starters.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I've been playing a deck LIKE this, but it's more like Stax, 43 Land, and this formed into one, and I've been kicking ass and taking names. I'll post the list as it's own thing when I get the chance. Don't worry all, the land-deck is not dead.
