[Deck] CounterSliver

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Originally Posted by Volt

A build without Plated is going to get raped by 1st turn Lackey a lot more often; that is a stone cold fact.

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I'm not so sure of that. I mean, we have Force for Lackey if we absolutely need to, and we also run Stifle and Swords to Plowshares as a 4-of. Even without Plated Sliver, we can proably still answer a Lackey on the draw consistently. Sure, it might soften our position against Lackey a little, but probably not as much as you're suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Volt

I had a situation last night in my Gro match, where I had a Crystalline, Muscle, and Plated in play, while my opponent had a Nimble Mongoose. I was able to get in a couple swings with the Crystalline because of those XL pants.

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I'll admit, fat asses against other creatures of similar size is pretty great, but you know what else is? First strike. If you replace that Plated Sliver with a Talon Sliver (perhaps we should push it up to 4) in tha situation, you can still swing unabated.

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Originally Posted by Volt

Keep in mind that Mav was also 3-0 in that tournament last night, and it sounds to me like he lost that 4th match primarily due to play mistakes (no offense, Mav. I make plenty.). Mav probably should have won, simply because he was playing more slivers. I honestly think we may be taking a step backwards here. However, in the spirit of fairness, let's playtest whatever new version you guys want to try out.

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I'll admit, this deck is really good as is, and you could probably run Plated Sliver with relatively spectacular results, but I'm really just trying new ideas to see what it is that pushes it from 'really good' to 'Tier 1'.

[quote = Hanni]It takes time for a deck to become considered Tier 1, regardless of whether or not the deck is simply amazing. It's also largely dependant on its popularity throughout the entire Legacy community as a whole.
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Well, okay. Tier 1 after a while :rolleyes:.

U/W/g Slivers

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (15)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard (15)
2 Talon Sliver
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle (can be Stifle)

This is what I would do with the deck if I were to begin playtesting. I've done alot of work with other aggro/control builds so I do come with a little bit of experience, though I've never actually played Slivers so I may be wrong with some of the card choices.

I'll start with the land base first. The deck is primarliy blue, so I went with a heavier blue manabase. White is the next predominant splash, so I gave it a basic Plains to tutor for with the 7 fetchlands. I also added a basic Island for that reason. This deck is fundamentally better with 6-8 fetchlands, so I ran 7. 17 lands is sufficient with such a low cc.

Obviously, the core of the deck is 4 Muscle Sliver and 4 Crystalline Sliver. 4 Plated Sliver gives this deck 4 1cc creatures, which works well with the manabase (especially considering the cantrip/draw), and it's a 1/2 that blocks Lackey. The extra toughness helps draw creatures out of Bolt range when Crystaline Sliver is not in play, and it's an all-around great Sliver for the deck. 2 Talon Slivers give the deck a better game against most aggro, with 2 in the sideboard for games where additional is necessary. Running more than 2 maindeck seems iffy to me, especially since they are 1/1 for 2cc when Muscle Sliver isn't in play. A 1/1 Flyer for 1U hardly seems worth it, even if it does get boosted by your Muscle Slivers, and even if it does grant everything else flying. The deck runs a lone Eladmri's Call to act as the 2nd Winged Sliver... or the 3rd Talon Sliver (5th after sideboard). It also acts as the 5th Crystaline Sliver or a 5th Muscle Sliver. 15 creatures should be sufficient, especially with the solid draw engine (this is aggro/control after all).

One card that I would like to fit into this deck is Dark Confidant. The card draw he provides is amazing, plus he's a beatstick at the same time. However, this deck can use Accumulated Knowledge instead, since it is a very solid card for card advantage. 12 card draw spells sounds sufficient for an aggro/control deck, 8 cantrips + 4 CA. They are all pitchable to FoW, which make them great, and they also work well with Jotun Grunts after sideboarding. The deck also has 1 Eladmri's Call to further the draw engine, acting as a tutor for necessary creatures.

I've tested with aggro/control alot and the 4/3/2 split of FoW/Daze/Counterspell is beautiful. You want to see Daze early, so you need to run at least 3, but you don't want to see it late, so running 4 can sometimes be a dead draw. 3 makes the most sense to me. The deck still wants some form of hard counter for mid-late game sweep spells or other important spells, so 2 Counterspell works well (less chance of early game draws but more probable to draw mid-late game than 0). 4 FoW shouldn't need explanation.

For maindeck removal, the deck should be sufficient with 4 Swords to Plowshares. The deck has enough dig for it, and the fact that it runs untargetable First Strike creatures that can be pumped up to large sizes, should require less removal maindeck. 2 Disenchant comes in as solid utility against cards like Umezawa's Jitte.

I don't think Chain of Vapors is what this deck wants at all... 1 turn tempo can be helpful but it doesn't compare to an actual answer. Let me compare with Swords to Plowshares. Swords to Plowshares is still tempo too, the opponent spends their turn playing a creature that you end up removing (wasting that turn). However, they lose that resource rather than getting it back. Chain of Vapors creates tempo at the cost of card advantage, something that this deck desperately wants to avoid. Actual answers are far more worthwhile.

I don't run Stifle in my version simply because I feel that it doesn't do enough. It's good against Solidarity, I suppose, but it's still pretty narrow in usage outside of that. Combo is supposed to be a good matchup for aggro/control anyways, so the deck should at least leave combo answers in the sideboard. My aggro/control decks run no answers to combo in the sideboard, though it has Meddling Mage maindeck. For your deck, I'd consider combo answers in the sideboard. Stifle has other uses as well, I agree with that, but nothing that I feel isn't worth simply using Counterspell, Daze, Disenchant, or something else on. It's amazing against Pernicious Deeds, although countermagic does the same thing but broader. Against a card like Jitte though, it's better to just Disenchant it. I see it being more useful against activated abilities, where Pithing Needle seems to be a much better sideboard answer. Of course the deck could always turn the Pithing Needles into Stifles, though I think Stifle is better used as tempo against fetchlands rather than concrete answers to most problems.

The sideboard has 2 Talon Slivers for Goblins and other aggro (dropping 2 Counterspells probably), as well as Engineered Explosives to remove creatures in Zoo, Angel Stompy, etc while removing cards like SoFI, Chalice of the Void, Phrexian Negator, and Hypnotic Specter. It's just randomly versatile all around and is your best answer the Chalice of the Void. It might hurt you sometimes, but your the aggro/control player... you run 15 creatures and alot of control elements.

Jotun Grunt is a great hoser to Threshold because its a 4/4 beatstick for 2cc at the same time. Graveyard hate works well against many different decks in the format, and with Jotun Grunt, you get it in a 2-for-1 package since he's also aggro.

Meddling Mage is my favorite answer to combo because it still puts on a clock against the combo player. It requres that the opponent uses Echoing Truths, Evacuation, or something similar to remove him. This in itself can often cause them to fizzle. If they do try to remove him, you support him with counter backup. Otherwise, your golden. I always name the win conditions with Meddling Mage (Tendrils or Brainfreeze), and protect them. They are also useful against control, where naming off key spells can be very helpful... and he's a 2-for-1, like Jotun Grunt, because he's a 2cc 2/2 at the same time.

Pithing Needle is extremely versatile and hurts/hoses alot of decks (Tog, Survival, Landstill, Land.dec, etc). It can be switched to Stifle, though I've had great success with Pithing Needle and never felt I needed the reach of triggered abilities with Stifle.

Please remember that most of my experience from putting this list together comes from my experience with my UWb Fish deck, since they are both blue based aggro/control decks. Some important ideas for both decks may differ since they are slightly different. I still believe that the list I presented is pretty solid. I haven't really looked at the most recent decklists lately so if I'm ripping off of someone's list, I'm not. I'll go skim through the 17 pages of content when I get the time to see if I am or not.

The cool thing about this deck, for me, is that after buying all the cards for my UWb Fish deck, the only cards I would need to buy to assemble this would be the Slivers, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, 1 Eladamri's Call (which none of these are very expensive), and 4 Tropical Islands (I purchased an extra set of Tundra's which could easily trade for these). It's cool how blue based control (especially with white) can fit into alot of different decks. Hell, I can assemble Threshold for pretty cheap too. Only problem with all of this is that my UWb Fish deck was far more expensive than both Slivers and Threshold are... oh well.
:(

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Originally Posted by Djelmo

I'm playing this casual/budget sliver control:

MUC SLIVER?

Lands (24):
20x Island
4 x Saprazzan Skerry
Creatures (23):
3 x Screeching Sliver
3 x Winged Sliver
3 x Mnemonic Sliver
4 x Telekinetic Sliver
2 x Psionic Sliver
4 x Synapse Sliver
Enchantments (4):
3 x Faces of the Past
Other:
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
2 x Wash Out

It still needs testing, but what do you guys think? I like the Faces of the Past + Psionix Sliver + Telekinetic Sliver combo, as it turns all my Slivers into bigger Mogg Fanatics, not to mention Vitalizing all my slivers. Also Telekinetic Sliver so far seems to be quite the force, making a virtual Opposition. Also, Pisonic Sliver replaces Acidic Sliver for me, so there's not much besides Muscle/Might/Hibernation sliver outside of blue, so I think I'll keep the stable mana base and save my money for mono blue.

Then again, my meta isn't very competetive, so I'm not sure.

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You dirty a beautiful thread...
Although telekinetic sliver is very sexy in play. the casting cost on the other hand is not. Try to remember that this thread is about COMPETITIVE counter slivers, and while i enjoy looking through casual forums occasionally, when i'm trying to look through for tips and styles of competitive decks like these, people throwing out their casual deck with a make it better sign doesn't help. I'm not trying to flame you, I just hate seeing people post lists that they admit are strictly casual in this forum page. If only because it's the one with the improve sign on it. You're missing test results, card choices, etc... for the most part. Redo it with these and then post it.

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Originally Posted by Togit460

You dirty a beautiful thread...
Although telekinetic sliver is very sexy in play. the casting cost on the other hand is not. Try to remember that this thread is about COMPETITIVE counter slivers, and while i enjoy looking through casual forums occasionally, when i'm trying to look through for tips and styles of competitive decks like these, people throwing out their casual deck with a make it better sign doesn't help. I'm not trying to flame you, I just hate seeing people post lists that they admit are strictly casual in this forum page. If only because it's the one with the improve sign on it. You're missing test results, card choices, etc... for the most part. Redo it with these and then post it.

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Good point. A thousand apologies.

I've tested one game, and Telekinetic Sliver was bomb.com, being able lock half your opponents lands is incredibly useful, and I swung untouched for 9 turn 8 I beleive. Worked pretty well. But it needs more testing.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I'm not so sure of that. I mean, we have Force for Lackey if we absolutely need to, and we also run Stifle and Swords to Plowshares as a 4-of. Even without Plated Sliver, we can proably still answer a Lackey on the draw consistently. Sure, it might soften our position against Lackey a little, but probably not as much as you're suggesting.

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Between Force of Will, Stifle, and Swords to Plowshares, only the latter qualifies as a good answer to turn 1 Lackey. The others are desperate measures that equate to card disadvantage.

Sorry if I'm being a party-pooper, but I'm 99% sure that removing Plated Sliver will not improve the deck. I'm open to being proven wrong, though. Let me know how the play-testing goes.

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4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (15)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard (15)
2 Talon Sliver
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle (can be Stifle)

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Hanni don't take this personally but this list looks like a butchered version of our deck.

The problems I see:

No windswept heath? you want to be able to fetch a basic forest.

Only 1 winged and 2 talon? these guys win games.

Accumulated Knowledge without intuition is a terrible draw engine.

Main deck disenchants? So unnesscessary (at least in my meta).

The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.

Lack of maindeck stifles and engineered explosives. Stifle is one of the main strengths of this deck. It's great in the current meta, and rapes goblins hardcore. Explosives is just so versatile.

Also I've done more testing with counterspell, and I just don't like it. It's slow and requires mana to be open. Honestly I can not see this card ever being run in this deck.

What I do like is jotun grunt in the board. This card seems like a house against thresh and solidarity.

Again I'm just trying to share my insights I've learned from all my previous playtesting with the deck. I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.

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Let me ask you this... Would you run 5 Crystalline Slivers if you could? Of course you would. Now, why is it that we should cut Eladamri's Call again?

Seriously, the card repeatedly comes in handy for me. I'm not going to cut it from my build.

Here's some possible sideboard tech for the mirror match: Spell Snare. It's also very good against Deadguy & Pox, which are problem matchups for us.

Again, my decklist was built from my knowledge of blue based aggro/control builds and not actual testing with the Slivers deck.

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No windswept heath? you want to be able to fetch a basic forest

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With only 4 Muscle Sliver and 1 Eladmri's Call as the only green spells, I don't see the need to fetch a basic forest. If your going against a deck with Wastelands, leave fetchlands uncracked so you can crack them for a Tropical Island when you need to cast one of the 5 spells of 60 cards in the deck.

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Only 1 winged and 2 talon? these guys win games.

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Winged comes down as a 2cc 1/1 flyer on its lonesome and doesn't really do it for me. It can give evasion, though the deck shouldn't need it often since the creatures should be buffed up nicely from Plated Sliver and Muscle Sliver and get first strike from Talon Sliver. Plus more than 1 doesn't add any additional benefit to the rest of your Slivers. The deck may only have 1, but it actually sees it much more often than the number looks on paper due to the lone 1-of Eladamri's Call and the other 12 card draw spells.

Talon, again, comes down as a 2cc 1/1 first strike on its lonesome. It's ability is only useful once, and the rest of the Talon Slivers are just 2cc 1/1's unless pumped by Muscle or Plated. If it was a 2/2, I could understand running more than 2 maindeck, but with the Eladamri's Call and card draw, 2 maindeck 2 sideboard should be more than sufficient, in my opinion.

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Accumulated Knowledge without intuition is a terrible draw engine.

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I don't think they should be too bad, they only suck the first time you cast them. After that, 2cc to draw 2 cards is great. With the other 8 cantrips, fetchlands, etc in this deck, drawing 3 cards for 2cc should happen more often than it looks on paper. It's the only card advantage that I could think of for this deck that doesn't have too high of a cc aside from Dark Confidant, and this deck really needs card advantage in supplement to the cantrip.

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Main deck disenchants? So unnesscessary (at least in my meta).

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Well, these could be sideboarded I suppose, but it deals with cards that can be game wrecking for you if they go uncountered. Umezawa's Jitte was the example that I presented, though you can always cut these for creature removal if you don't need them. I like having answers maindeck without relying purely on Force of Will and Daze (especially Daze) to stop stuff.

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The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.

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Because it adds to the card draw engine. It's a tutor for your Slivers. It's the 5th Crystalline Sliver and Crystalline Sliver is something you want in play every game, the earlier the better. It's also your 5th Muscle Sliver. It fetches the lone Winged Sliver or one of the Talon Slivers. It's a great late game topdeck because, by then, having 4 mana to play it and the Sliver you fetch shouldn't be a problem and it's versitility is unmatched.

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Lack of maindeck stifles and engineered explosives. Stifle is one of the main strengths of this deck. It's great in the current meta, and rapes goblins hardcore. Explosives is just so versatile.

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Stifle just doesn't do it for me. It can be a great answer against combo but I'd rather maindeck Meddling Mage in its place for maindeck combo answers. It's solid in the current meta, but against alot of things it is just a 1 time answer to something reusable. I thought that the Goblin matchup was already in your favor anyway? Simply hard countering (Counterspell or FoW) most targets for Stifle is much better (aside from Cycling, but Pithing Needle can stop that if the target is important). The greatest strengths of Stifle, for me, are: destroying early game fetchlands for a tempo increase with the supplement of Wasteland to color screw or land screw an opponent, and stopping Pernicious Deeds. Cards like Deeds are better answered by Pithing Needle because it is a permanent answer to the card (like Meddling Mage sorta). I'm just not a big fan of Stifle outside of the mana denial theme.

I agree with you that Explosives is versatile, but more often than not the number it's going to be set to is 2. That's going to hurt you as well. If you notice, I have them in the sideboard. I realize that they are a great card, my UWb Fish deck also sideboards 3 of them. I'm just not sure that I would want to run them in the maindeck.

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Also I've done more testing with counterspell, and I just don't like it. It's slow and requires mana to be open. Honestly I can not see this card ever being run in this deck.

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That's why I run a 4/3/2 split, so that I typically draw into Counterspell when I am able to cast it, stopping late game topdecks like Exalted Angel or something.

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What I do like is jotun grunt in the board. This card seems like a house against thresh and solidarity.

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What I like is 3 Jotun Grunts maindeck. :smile: Not for this deck though (for my UWb Fish).

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Again I'm just trying to share my insights I've learned from all my previous playtesting with the deck. I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

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I didn't take any of it as an insult, I haven't tested the deck. I was just tossing my ideas out. You can either disregard it or test it, I'm just trying to help the development of the deck. If my ideas are a step backwards, then I appologize beforehand.

Hanni: Thanks very much for your input. I like your uwb fish deck.

I'm totally backing Mav on running 2x Winged + 3x Talon. They're simply too important to the deck to run fewer of them. This is where play-testing comes in. Once you play the deck for a while, you'll understand.

Regarding Stifle... It's really good, but I'm once again leaning back toward maindecking Pithing Needle instead. I've always been on the fence about which of those is better. One of the reasons Mav & Pinder like Stifle so much is because of the all the nifty tricks you can play against Goblins (i.e. stifle your wasteland, stifle your ringleader effect, etc). However, imo, Needle naming Aether Vial trumps all of those other tricks put together.

Regarding maindeck disenchants... Really not necessary. Even in the case of Umezawa's Jitte, our first striking creatures usually make the Jitte a moot point. This is one of the reasons Talon Sliver is so important. Also, if we maindeck Pithing Needles, that's another weapon against stuff like Jitte and SoFI.

Well, I suggested Disenchant simply for the additional utility of removing artifacts/enchantments. It's not something that is necessary, especially in metagames void of artifacts/enchantments. Pithing Needle would be a great replacement for it maindeck.

I cannot disagree with running 2 Winged Slivers and 3 Talon Slivers because I've never played the deck, although it seems like the deck really only needs 1 in play at a time for the effect. Otherwise, they are 2cc 1/1's before pump. I suppose running extra aggro never hurts though. I think the lone Eladamri's Call would alleviate the need for the 2nd Winged Sliver though, and I did have 2 Talon Sliver sideboard for aggro heavy matchups (like Goblins and Affinity). Either way, I've never tested the deck so you are probably right.

I just wanna say this again: the deck can actually run lower numbers on certain cards (like 2 Counterspell instead of 3 or 4) because the cantrip + card draw actually increases the probability of drawing into such cards, making the deck draw into 2 Counterspells as if they were 3, etc. This also goes back to Wingeds and Talons, because the Eladamri's Call makes the deck have 3 Talons with cantrip + card draw to make it like it actually has 4 in the deck. This logic may seem a little confusing because it's a bit difficult to word it and I would be happy to explain it in further detail if you guys want me to.

As far as helping development though, I think that maindecking at least 2 Pithing Needles (in replace of maindeck Stifles) is a really good idea. I also think that the lone Eladamri's Call is a really good idea. I also think that Chain of Vapors is not the best option for this deck.

Here is the decklist I am trying right now:

17 lands

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

3 Pithing Needle

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Eladamri's Call

Out: Stifle
In: Pithing Needle, Sleight of Hand

This build is geared for an aggro-heavy environment. Game 1 against combo is not favorable. However, bringing 7 cards out of the sideboard (4x Meddling Mage + 3x Arcane Lab/Stifle) will swing that matchup solidly in our favor.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

4 Plated Sliver gives this deck 4 1cc creatures, which works well with the manabase (especially considering the cantrip/draw), and it's a 1/2 that blocks Lackey. The extra toughness helps draw creatures out of Bolt range when Crystaline Sliver is not in play, and it's an all-around great Sliver for the deck.

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Alright, alright, keep Plated Sliver in the main =/. I'm still going to test a build without it, but for now I'll concede that any list we'll be actively discussing will include Plated Sliver. I won't bother you with my crazy ideas until I can back them up with more testing :tongue:.

You know what else keeps your Slivers out of Bolt range, though? Crystalline Sliver. Just saying.

As for AK in the main, I don't like it. I do, however, think it's our best bet for actual CA. It costs 2, and it's only great after you've casted 2 of them, but we don't actually have much more of a choice, do we? And don't go around suggesting Predict, either. With 8 MD cantrips we should be able to find one early, and after that each one is 2 mana for 2 cards, at least. After AK number two, numbers three and four are downright spectacular. How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back? Until they print someting better, I agree that AK is our best bet, if a little slow. I'll start testing it.

As far as Stifle, I'm still really mixed on the subject. From what I can tell during testing, it's either absolutely fantastic, or incredibly dead in your hand. So far it's fantasicality (is that word?) has been enough to keep it in the main, but maybe it deserves a place in the board, or perhaps we could only cut a couple for the more versatile utility that is Pithing Needle. I mean, come on, it's Pithing Neelde. Having 2-3 maindeck can't ever be bad. And I'll admit that as long as we have a Needle on Vial, we can just counter what we would normally need to Stifle anyway.

As for counterspell, I think that 2 is probably more than enough. We only want to see it late game, and by then I'm usually sitting behind a wall of Slivers with mana left to spare. Another hard counter would be nice.

And I think that EE might be an okay choice for the main, as a 2-of. Sure, we don't really want to pop it at 2 most of the time, but it's mostly there to pop at 1 to clear half of Goblins' board and against Mongoose. Not only that, but it's also fairly great at 3 to clear the other half of Goblins' board and problem enchantments like Engineered Plague, and random stuff like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere. And if we're in a matchup where we might have to pop it for 2 for it to be useful, we can always board it out games 2 and 3 and play around it during Game 1. If you know you'll have to set EE at 2 to clear the board, hold Slivers in your hand and only play enough to either hold them off or create a clock. Wait till the opportune moment, pop it, and then drop Slivers from your hand as your opponent is still recovering.

And to the 1 Call, Volt (and now Hanni too) has been fairly adamant about keeping it in. Maybe Crystalline/Muscle Sliver #5 or Talon/Winged #3 is worth it.

EDIT: After some thought, a list:

//Lands (17)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (15)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze


//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Utility (3)
3 Pithing Needle

And as far as Disenchant in the main or side, I think that Harmonic Sliver is probably a better choice. I saw a few at the Prerelease, and it's actually worded so that Harmonic Sliver kills an artifact or enchantment when it hits the table, not just when another Sliver hits. It costs 3, but it turns all of your other Slivers into Disenchants too. I think it's honestly the only Sliver from Time Spiral that's worth looking at here.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Alright, alright, keep Plated Sliver in the main =/. I'm still going to test a build without it, but for now I'll concede that any list we'll be actively discussing will include Plated Sliver. I won't bother you with my crazy ideas until I can back them up with more testing :tongue:.

You know what else keeps your Slivers out of Bolt range, though? Crystalline Sliver. Just saying.

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The Plated Slivers serve as a sort of redundancy with Crystalline Sliver and Talon Sliver in that they help protect our slivers from harm. You can't always rely on having Crystalline and/or Talon in play. Plus, they're more slivers, and they only cost 1! Just saying. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Pinder

As for AK in the main, I don't like it. I do, however, think it's our best bet for actual CA. It costs 2, and it's only great after you've casted 2 of them, but we don't actually have much more of a choice, do we? And don't go around suggesting Predict, either. With 8 MD cantrips we should be able to find one early, and after that each one is 2 mana for 2 cards, at least. After AK number two, numbers three and four are downright spectacular. How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back? Until they print someting better, I agree that AK is our best bet, if a little slow. I'll start testing it.

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There is that new blue draw spell that costs 1U, draws one card, and flashes back for 2U. That might be worth a look.

Howdy,
I have read a lot of what you guys have posted here and I will be happy to playtest for you guys anytime.

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There is that new blue draw spell that costs 1U, draws one card, and flashes back for 2U. That might be worth a look.

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I played this in the construct this weekend and I know it's a totally different meta or whatever but it did'nt seem to help much unless i had nothing else to play, partially because i have other card-getty creatures but I would like to suggest sleight of hand or something.

-Billey The Kid, Honorary Info-Ninja :smile:

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How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back?

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Whenever I do this I want to jump off a bridge

Erm, okay. So, it's not that cool. But either way, AK is the best we've got.

As for Think Twice (the card draw with Flashback that Volt mentioned), I don't really think it would work that well. Sure, it has flashback, but it only draws you one card at a time, and doesn't really provide any actual card advantage. I think that AK is a better choice here.

EDIT: But AK might not be the best choice. In order for it to be really good, it has to be a 4-of. I'm thinking that it might take up too much room and push out more utility. Maybe it might be alright as a 3 of, but we might want to start looking for other sources of card advantage that don't take up so much room in the main.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Erm, okay. So, it's not that cool. But either way, AK is the best we've got.

As for Think Twice (the card draw with Flashback that Volt mentioned), I don't really think it would work that well. Sure, it has flashback, but it only draws you one card at a time, and doesn't really provide any actual card advantage. I think that AK is a better choice here.

EDIT: But AK might not be the best choice. In order for it to be really good, it has to be a 4-of. I'm thinking that it might take up too much room and push out more utility. Maybe it might be alright as a 3 of, but we might want to start looking for other sources of card advantage that don't take up so much room in the main.

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Ancestral Vision?

Beyond that, I don't really know what kind of card draw we can fit into the deck. We might just be stuck with trying to avoid card disadvantage (i.e. Chain of Vapor) as much as possible, and concentrate on what we can do, which is play cantrips to improve our card quality.

I was beginning to think the same thing. This deck just doesn't have the room to fit in strict card advantage. We'll just have to avoid card disadvantage for the time being.

I was looking at the list on the first post, and I think we should go back to something like that. If we cut the 4 Stifles for 3 Pithing Needles, that will leave us four open slots in the main, perhaps for 3 EE and one Call. What does everyone think? The only problem I can see there is that Pithing Needle in the main makes EE for 1 a little bit worse. But we can always play around that.

Or if we wanted to move EE to the board, we can always run some more permission or cantripping in the main.

EDIT: Actually, Ancestral Vision might not be that bad....being aggro control, our games go decently long anyway. It's a horrible topdeck, but if we suspend it early, it might fill our hand later when we need it. And who in the hell has answers for suspend in Legacy? What exactly is the suspend on that, anyway? 3 or 4?

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I was beginning to think the same thing. This deck just doesn't have the room to fit in strict card advantage. We'll just have to avoid card disadvantage for the time being.

I was looking at the list on the first post, and I think we should go back to something like that. If we cut the 4 Stifles for 3 Pithing Needles, that will leave us four open slots in the main, perhaps for 3 EE and one Call. What does everyone think? The only problem I can see there is that Pithing Needle in the main makes EE for 1 a little bit worse. But we can always play around that.

Or if we wanted to move EE to the board, we can always run some more permission or cantripping in the main.

EDIT: Actually, Ancestral Vision might not be that bad....being aggro control, our games go decently long anyway. If we suspend in early, it might fill our hand later when we need it. And who in the hell has answers for suspend in Legacy? What exactly is the suspend on that, anyway? 3 or 4?

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4. And it might not be bad at all. Our games do tend to go fairly long. It certainly warrants play-testing.