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Here we go again... Aether Vial arguments.
I honestly think it's time to get it out of your lists. IIRC, it was a knee-jerk reaction to all the Fish decks running around when Flash reared its ugly head. Now that Flash is gone, Fish decks have gone back to hiding. I think what the deck needs now is more removal (Oblivion Ring? :tongue:), rather than Vials.
And? Thresh is about as popular now as Fish was at GP Columbus. And Thresh is running MORE countermagic than Fish did. Not only that, Aether Vial is simply strong in Slivers anyway... Slivers is a mana hungry deck, with the mana hunger coming from the fact that it wants to play 3-4 2cc creatures to feel "full." Think BK Commercial, and you'll understand.Quote:
Aether Vial arguments... it was a knee-jerk reaction to all the Fish decks running around when Flash reared its ugly head.
At least 3 Aether Vial seems pretty mandatory in this deck IMO, if the archtype is to survive in this Thresh dominated era.
On top of being uncounterable it gives you instant speed Slivers, I really see no reason why you wouldn't run it. The ability to throw in combat tricks with +1/+1 or First strike at instant speed is awesome.
And as stated it gives you way better game when facing counters or land destruction.
I mentioned I'd be running hooks in a tourney this weekend, but it turns out I got into town in time for another tourney tonight. Practice is good! 4 Swiss rounds with 18 people, I went 3-1 and finished 6th. I ran Volt's suggested Harmonic build with an entirely nonsensical sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage (I actually had 4, why didn't I use 4? Stupidity is fun)
1 Chill (heh, this is from when I played in the last tourney)
3 Aether Vial (conversion card)
3 Pithing Needle (This card might be beyond my current ability... I forgot to use it and often wouldn't know what to name anyway)
1 Harmonic Sliver (Dodges most Chalices, so I guess we'll not use Krosan Grip)
1 Essence Sliver (In hindsight, this singleton won a LOT of games. Seems better than Worship and depending on meta, maybe even a maindeck choice.)
4 Spell Snare (Didn't see a single Confidant or Goyf all night. Wacky...)
Round 1: Newbie deck, huge (80+ cards) GW life gain deck. Not sure what the win condition is. Most surprising was Heroes Remembered, Suspend for W and gain 20 life 10 turns later, but the games were over well before then.
Result 2-0
Round 2: Aggro elves. Wow, this was annoying. First game we went back and forth but eventually he gained the upper hand. I stupidly StPed an Elf with Symbiote out. Seriously, read your own damn guides. In general, I think Needling key cards like Timberwatch Elf and Symbiote, and Maging/StPing/countering Elvish Vanguard could be really good. Engineered Explosives for 1 would also kill a lot of utility elves while saving your 2-cost Slivers. Second game, Essence Sliver hit the board, and I won at 32 life (Essence Sliver seems to win games whenever it resolves). Third game, he stalled the board with some early pump/bounce tricks, so I couldn't make an effective attack. Lacking Winged, I was forced to put up a wall of First Striking Slivers rather than suicide attack into his army. Of course, stalling helps them more than you, and he won the third game. Winged+Essence+anything seems to just beat elves, period. Are Needles/Mages better, or should we just beat down?
Sided in: +4 Spell Snare (hits a lot of good elves), +1 Essence, -3 Daze, -2 Harmonic
Should have tried: Mages, Needles
Result 1-2
Round 3: Newbie deck, red/green with huge beaters and little acceleration. Some countermagic for his very few, very big threats sealed the deal. Chill was cast game 2 for extra annoyance.
Sided in: +1 Chill, -1 Harmonic
Result 2-0
Round 4: Reanimator deck. This was totally unexpected, and ran a bunch of huge white and red guys with Reanimate, Exhume, Living Death, and other tricks. Sensei's Divining Top helped a bit with card quality but it seemed that more library manipulation might have helped him. The first game, he was simply too quick. Though he brought himself to 1 with a combination of fetchlands, Reanimate, and Ancient Tomb, there was even more hurt directed my way. In three attacks I was gone. I forgot what exactly happened the second game, but I only took one damage from my fetchland. Third time I actually cast my singleton Essence Sliver, which let me race with his biggies for the win. Never got to cast Mage to nullify some of his Reanimators.
Sided in: +2 Meddling Mage, +1 Essence, -2 Harmonic, -1 [something]
Should have used: more mages
Result 2-1
Summary: The most Harmonics ever blew up were Wild Growths in round 3. Of course, tonight's players didn't represent the usual powered Legacy meta at all. Some good decks, but some type 2/casual decks. The Elf match was the most interesting. You really do need sweepers or many-for-1 cards (Mage/Needle) against elves.
Every time I've lost a round of 3 games, it seems clear that it's my own mistakes that caused the loss. This gives me hope that the deck still provides plenty of learning opportunity, but I realize (1) I haven't fully fleshed out the board and (2) I haven't tested it against many truly tough matchups.
The most important skills I need to learn are how to sideboard and when to mulligan. My notes weren't detailed enough to include initial hand quality, so some of the game reports are a little out of context. I've basically learned to not keep a single-land hand unless I have all of (1) pump slivers, (2) cantrips, (3) maybe an StP, and (4) a way to get UW from that one land.
After the tourney
Finally got a chance to test the Goblin matchup, and then the same guy played Rock (?). Goblins seemed like a pretty standard build, but using Port instead of Wasteland, and maindecking two Grenades. First game, I Swordsed a first turn Lackey (he seemed to pull that first-turn lackey crap every game), and a total of 4 pump slivers and 4 Brainstorms out-aggroed and outdrew him for the win. Second game, Goblins did its normal thing and exploded all over me. When Gobs can hard-cast Siege Gang with Chill in play and you're out of answers, it's pretty much game. Third game I lucksacked into my singleton Chill in my initial hand. Since I went first, I StPed his first-turn Lackey on his turn and dropped Chill on the second turn, effectively for the win. He was forced to cast things once they became possible to cast, and the important spells ran into a wall of Dazes. With slivers swinging for upwards of 9 a turn, the game was soon over.
Sided in: +1 Essence Sliver, +1 Chill, -2 something
Haven't heard much of Rock, but apparently it's a B/G board control deck. Not sure if The Source has a primer thread on it, but it's a pretty nasty build with a bit of discard, destruction, Extirpate to kill strategies (from combo to pump slivers), Deed to blow everything up, Wall of Blossoms (!) to stall the ground war, and recursion to keep on doing it. First game took about ten hours, and he Extirpated my pump slivers, Brainstorm, Counters, and started going after my lands. Stalled by manlands and Walls of Blossoms on the ground, I needed a Winged Sliver to swing the game. When I managed to put one on top, he cast Extirpate again to make me reshuffle. Though I managed to get him down to 5 relatively quickly, I couldn't push the last points through without pump slivers. Second game, he didn't seem to draw much of interest, and though he Extirpated some blue instants, my slivers beat down for the win. It's a little unfortunate I got as much serious playtesting in these 5 games as in the tourney beforehand.
Sided in: nothing because we played 1-ofs, but I'm not sure what would help. Spell Snares would kill some stuff like Edict, Needles would kill Deed. Seems that Rock runs too many must-counter spells and others like Extirpate can't be countered.
This guy recommended that Plated Slivers be taken out or reduced now that Goblins are in decline. We still have StP, FoW, and Daze on the play to kill a Lackey. We still have cantrips and possibly Vial as first turn plays. In the absence of sweepers, creature hate such as Quilled Sliver may swing a battle, and Essence in the main further improves all manner of aggro matchups, and maybe even some combo matchups. It sounds a bit crazy since Plated has been a staple since the deck was first proposed, but remember that was when Goblins were more popular. Of course, Quilled makes Vial even more nutty (possibly replacing Talon), but makes the deck even more susceptible to Explosives (while Essence Sliver helps here).
This is pretty rough, but it's almost 5 am and i gotta sleep. More tomorrow!
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Would Gadog Teeg be worth playing in this deck(for crystaline
It does pretty much the same as crystaline but also more.The problem is that its not a sliver
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How odd, that the actual tourney turned out smaller than last night's practice tourney. 3 Swiss rounds with 8 people. This was an "official" tourney, so I finally have a DCI number. I went 2-1 and finished 4th. Like last night, I was last among the people who lost one round.
I went back to the 3-Vial build, subbing out a Plated for an Essence. In the board, I ran:
1x Aether Vial
3x Pithing Needle (one's in the mail... grr)
4x Meddling Mage
4x Spell Snare
3x Harmonic Sliver
Round 1: Type 2 Sligh Deck with splashed black for Confidant. First game I decided to keep a hand with 4 land and a Vial. I probably should have mulled this, but decided to keep it. I held him off and got him to 10, but he overran me in the end. I stupidly played out a single Muscle with a Seal of fire on the board... I should have waited for another or a Crystalline to Vial in response to saccing Seal. Second game, I returned the favor with a strong hand. I played out slivers more aggressively, guessing that he didn't run sweepers. Third game was just horrendous. Two landless mulls yielded a 5-card hand with a single Plains. I decided to try it, and never drew another land for the rest of the game.
Sided: Nothing... didn't know what would help
Result: 1-2
Round 2: Blue/White Board Control. Isochron Scepters, Wrath of God, man lands, Mobilization, Faith's Fetters, Martyr of Sands. He seemed to play quite well, which was annoying and led to long games. :tongue: First game, I played around an Isochron Scepter with Counterspell Imprint. I finished at over 30 life. Second game, I got him down to 11 before a Wrath hit the board. Fortunately only 3 slivers were on the board, and I still had a Sinew+something (Winged or Talon) in my hand. However, his point removal kicked in and by the time I died (which took a while due to him only having 1/1 tokens), he was at 23 life from Martyr and Fetters. By the way, I once again had to mull to 5 in game 2, but at least the resulting hand was playable. As the third game started, we were already short on time. Thankfully I had a rather explosive hand and could play first. Just before he got 4 land I dropped a Mage naming Wrath of God, as I was going all out with Crystalline + Pumpers. Time was called, and I won on turn 4 of 5 with a Force of Will and cantrip in hand for security.
Sided, 2nd game: +3 Harmonic, +4 Spell Snare, -1 Essence, -2 Plated, -4 StP
Sided, 3rd game: +4 Meddling Mage, +3 Pithing Needle, -1 Winged, -2 Talon, -4 [something]
Result: 2-1
Round 3: Black control with various splashes. Some discard, some creature kill, some land destruction, Nevinyrral's Disk, Smokestack, a singleton Juzam Djinn, etc. Seemed like a janky but annoying effective board controller. Not nearly as consistent or scary as last night's BG Rock deck. First game, Sliver army swung for the win. Second game, he was able to Disk my armies, point-remove my stragglers, and swing with double Mishra's Factory for a slow kill. Third game, Mages and Needles went in again to deal with the nasty Artifacts and Enchantments, along with Harmonics for added security. My opponent got exactly what happened to me during the first match, and after mulling to 5, kept a Workshop-only hand. As he got no further land, the two Mages that I drew stayed hidden, and the hive went nuts on him. Having experienced the same thing in round 1, I actually felt rather bad for him; I would have rather seen a more evenly matched game 3 to see how the decks interact.
Sided, 2nd game (roughly): +Spell Snare, +Aether Vial (his land destruction scared me)
Sided, 3rd game (roughly): +4 Mages, +3 Needles, +1 Essence, -2 Talon, -2 Plated, -3 StP, -1 Winged
Result: 2-1
Summary: All matches went to game 3, last two matches went really long. Unfortunately, two of three matches were decided based on horrific initial hands. I would rather lose due to a stupid mistake (which allows for learning) than lose due to pure blind luck. Arguably, I should have mulled that hand in round 1, game 3 down to 4. Anyway, the second match seemed the most interesting, pitting aggro-control against UW control in three well-played games. Mages and Needles should have been awesome, but it seems I would have won the games in which they were sided in anyway.
Against UW control and to some extent Black Control, both Spell Snares and Dazes seemed dead a lot of the time. UW control was playing land nearly every turn, which allowed it to shrug off Daze. (After the first time, he seemed to be extra cautious with regards to keeping some mana free.) While both the UW and mono black decks used a lot of 2-cost spells, Snare just didn't seem to do the trick often enough. I'm considering using straight Counterspells, which the heavy use of Vial makes possible.
My meta is really screwy... one of the guys who plays sanctioned tourneys at both tonight's and last night's venues says there're pretty much no combo decks at all. Goblins still rear their heads from time to time, and there's some Thresh and a lot of rogue builds. I wonder what to do in a Landstill-free, combo-free meta?
One problem I've noticed is that a fast game 1 win shows you little of their deck, while any Sliver pretty much makes your deck's strategy clear. This allows them to side effectively in game 2, whereas you're in the dark. While being ahead by a game allows some amount of safety, often a prepared opponent will come back in game 2 leaving the record pretty much even at 1-1. This probably happens with most heavily themed decks like Slivers, Goblins, etc. though.
Errors: Not remembering to add a counter to Vial. Naming/showing the Vialed critter before allowing Vial's ability to resolve. Not immediately going to Mages+Needle against the UW control deck. Non-optimal use of fetch+cantrip interaction (still, grrr what a noob). Not mulling to 4 with a stupid 1-Plains-only hand (only obvious in hindsight?).
Shout out: a friend piloted my 9-land stompy and won against the UW control guy. Yeay stompy! =)
Well, I ran Counterslivers last sunday in a 35-people tournament, not very much people. We played 5 rounds of Swiss before Top 8. I had a terrible day, I lost the first 3 rounds 2-1, smashed a random deck and got a 2-0 in the fifth round because my opponent didn't wanted to play... any way, you can always learn something. This is the list I runned (now I think I should have made some changes):
4 Tundra
3 Tropical
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Islands (I only own 3 Tropicals)
1 Plains
3 Aether Vial
3 Plated sliver
4 Crystalline sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB (quite janky, cause I didn't have Armageddons):
4 Meddling Mage (Never faced combo, so never sided in)
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
3 Mind Harness
1 Plated Sliver (free slot)
Round 1 against MUC with Mishra's Factories: 1-2
Game 1. With a decent starting hand I can play enough slivers and Forced/Dazed his control tools to finish him.
+2 Pithing needle
+3 Krosan Grip
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Portent??
Game 2. He counters my Crystalline Sliver, plays Vedalken Shakles (wich I Krosan Grip'ed in his upkeep), plays a Nevynirral's Disk, I Daze it, and then, plays a second Disk in the next turn, wich blows my guys up. Afterwards, he drops a Morphling for the win.
Game 3. I resolve a Crystaline and a Muscle, but he buys some time with a lonely Mishra. We are inthe last 5 turns and then he plays an early Morphling, wich was followed next turn by a second Morphling (!!!). He beats me up and got my last lives in the last turn...
Round 2 against R/g Vial Goblins: 1-2
Game 1: I didn't know he was playing goblins, so I kept a decent but slow hand, I manage to stop some lackeys, but with double Vial he chains several Ringleaders producing that well-known large swarm you can't do much againt.
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Stifle
+3 Krosan Grip
-3 Spell snare
-4 Daze
Game 2: He mulligands and kept a slow hand while a got a load of pumping slivers wich finish him up without needing Crystalline or Winged.
Game 3: I manage to control him a bit, I attack with Crystalline, Muscle and Plated, leaving a Winged as a blocker, putting him at 6 life wile I have 12. Then, he uses Kiki-Jiki´s ability to copy a Ringleader, and drops everything he can, incluiding two fanatics, so he can swing for 12, deal 10 and sac the fanatics to end with my life...
Round 3 against B/w Confidant:
Game 1: He gets a 2nd turn Dark Ritual-Hymn to Tourach(wich I Spell Snare) and then a second Hymn. Hmanages to play a Confidant wich feeds his hand and buries me through card-advantage.
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Portent
-1 Aether Vial
Game 2: I chain Plated-Crystalline and some pumping slivers as I sword his first Confidant. I win.
Game 3: We have good hands, playing a lot of creatures and disruption. He plays a Nantuko and then I play Needle on it. He has a Confidant and a needled Nantuko, and I have Plated+Crystalline+Sinew, then he resolves 2 Hypnotics. I have awful draws and can't cantrip into any winged or swords. He kills me slowly.
Round 4 against BU Random Aggrocontrol:
I win 2-1 without sideboarding. He wins second game by stealing me a sliver without an unexpected Shackles and me making awful draws. Rest of matchups I play a lot of slivers and counter/sword all his overcosted guys.
Round 5:
As I explained, i didn't play, my opponent didn't fancied as he hasn't any options to get into the top 8.
It wasn't a great day, I didn't like to loose this way, 2-1, in the last turn, with a very short advantage, but that's the game. Any way I have some thoughts.
-I have still got a strange feeling about Vial, because its ans AWFUL topdeck, and we can play againt control decks without it. It was only realy useful againt Goblins, with all his wastelands and rishadan ports.
-I think this deck is sometimes too dependant on a god starting hand or good draws, I have lost the chance to win some decks when they run out of gas because I had awful draws. This deck needs some kind of engine more than counters or Aether Vial.
-I sometimes hope I had a goyf, specially against this Mishra-Wall, but I have still got hope in slivers, Crystalline Sliver wins me matches and this deck can still be god.
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Watch out for the mana curve. You're cutting a free spell for a 1cc spell, and a 1cc Sliver for a 2cc one.
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Hey guys I'm kinda new to the Source (been reading for a couple months) and finally got off my lazy ass to register and start discussing. I'm actually really interesting in splashing black too. Here's a list a cooked up just now that I'll test tonight-
the dudes- 18
4 crystalline
8 pump
3 winged
3 hibernation
the spells - 24
3 vial
4 force
4 brainstorm
3 daze
3 portent (soon ponder)
3 duress (soon thoughtseize)
4 STP
land - 18
1 Island
1 plains
7 fetches
2 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 tundra
SB- Honestly I don't really know but I was really liking that Morningtide idea it might just be crazy enough to work.
3-4 morningtide
4 stifle
3-4 extirpate (hey if we're running black now let's take full advantage of it shall we?)
4 meddling mage
I'm also thinking of adding leyline of the void instead of extirpate since it's such an awesome hoser these days.
I don't know about cutting daze completely it's helped me out so much in the past. It's helped me win many counter wars against thresh and whatnot. If I did I guess I'd add the 4th ponder and thoughtseize and then either 1 more hibernation or land since the manabase is a bit shakier now.
As for the whole Vial argument I think it's E-FUCKIN-SSENTIAL! I would never leave home without it! It's saved my sorry hide many many times against targeted removal (surprise crystalline), surprise pumping, and against land hate. And we all know how it flips the bird to counters. Bascially whenever I resolved an early vial I won that game. Sure it's pretty much dead late game but it's absolutely worth it. No deck is perfect, I mean topdecking multiple crystallines late game ain't exactly awesome either.
I don't mind taking out plated since goblins are on the decline (I rarely face it anymore at my tourney) I don't really need a first turn threat so much.
I've been doing pretty well at my SNL tourneys lately except for yesterday. I usually top 4 it (there's only like 8-12 people who usually show, 14-16 if we're lucky). I'm kinda 50/50 on both builds of thresh but I think the UGW seems to be harder for me especially when a mystic enforcer gets resolved late game after I've wasted my counters/removal on goyfs and other shenanigans. Goblins seems 50/50 too, I usually can counter their early vial/lackey but if I don't I'm screwed. I haven't faced much combo really, just dredge but we were only playtesting. The only other deck I've faced is landstill which is a friggin nightmare. It's the only deck I lose both games too otherwise my matches always go to game 3.
Ok I'm tired of writing for now, I'll get back to everyone on my testing results.
IMO Daze needs to stay in the deck, and probably as a 4 of. This deck really isn't anything without the counters, and I think that 4x Force, 4x Daze are completely necessary. Here is a 62 card list that we need to cut 2 from:
Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
3 Aether Vial
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
If that only added up to 60... I would be a happy Info-Ninja, but unfortunately, it doesn't. There are lots of options of what to cut, but here are the ones I think we should be deciding from:
1x Winged
1x Hibernation
1x Ponder
1x Thoughtseize
It is very possible that this may end up being personal preference (or you may all think my list is crap), but let's debate it for now. I'll post my opinion once I actually decide on it.
Kronicler
Hello ladies and gentlemen, it's about time we tied it up a bit again.
I took counter-sliver to the Pastimes legacy tournament this weekend and I would like to say that I would have done EXTREMELY well had I not promised my brother a scoop into top8. Here is my list...
Lands:
4 Delta
2 Strand
4 Tundra
3 Tropicals
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial
Creatures:
4 Crystaline
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
2 Winged
2 Talon
4 Plated
Spells:
4 Force
4 Daze
3 Portent
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Spell Snare
4 Morningtide
4 Stifle
There were about 30 people in attendance, playing for a set of Antiquities and a Bazaar to second... Here we go...
Round 1 - 43 (36 I hear) Land.dec
Game1 - He wins the roll and doesn't know what I am playing although we have played many times in the past because I always pick different decks. He leads with a fairly slow opening of Manabond, and no cycle lands. I open with a plated sliver, followed by Sinew and Muscle which he can't answer so game one goes to me quickly.
SB: +3 Harmonic, +4 Morningtide, -3 Vial, -4 Daze
Game 2 - He leads out with double Exploration and a loam. Damn.... I come back with land Plated, Land Morningtide which removes all his cycle lands and his loam. Very nice. Unfortunately I draw like 6.02x10^23 lands over the next 5 turns and he is able to gamble for another Loam to shut me out of that game.
Game 3 we start with a little time left in the round. I am able to get an offensive going but I can't find a winged to finish the game out. He kills me on turn 4 in turns with a Barb Ring played many times.
0-1 1-2
Round 2 - R/g Goblins
Game 1 - He leads out with Lackey. Nice deck. I answer with Plated sliver. He plays a Piledriver. I play a crystaline. He sighs. He plays a Warchief, I swords it, He plays another, I sword the Piledriver, He plays a Matron, I sword his tutor'd gobo. I kill him with a combination of Crystaline, Sinew, and Plated when a winged hits the board.
Sideboard - +4 Stifle, -4 Vial
Game 2 - He leads out with a metric ton of goblins and I get stuck with one land after a portent and a brainstorm. Gawd I'm dumb.
Game 3 - I once again remember how to draw my Swords and I have him dead on turn 5 with an onslaught of slivers and STP.
1-1, 3-3
Round 3 - Deadguy BW
Game 1 - He wins the die roll and leads out with Swamp - Duress. He sees.. "3 Land, Winged, Sinew, Crystaline, Brainstorm". I guess the play is brainstorm he remarks. I draw Force and play my land. He drops bob which I Force and he goes on tilt. The next 3 turns I play Crystaline, Sinew, Sinew, Winged and win the game. He plays nothing relevant.
SB: +3 Harmonic, +4 SpellSnare, -4 Vial, -1 Portent, -2 Talon
Game 2 - He goes first again and has a turn two top. I play turn 2 Crystaline sliver after a Plated sliver. I'm good at that. EoT he tops, I see him smirk and he draws and plays an engineered plague. I ask him if he is naming goblins, he chuckles and names Sliver. That's all good as I already have a harmonic in hand to blow it up next turn. He trys to drop a bob next turn which gets snared and he scoops it up.
2-1 , 5-3
Round 4 - GW Terrageddon
At this point I am paired against my little brother who is also 2-1 but is playing a deck that is much better against the current field of Thresh and whatnot. We sit down and watch the other matches around us for a bit and then I scoop to him because he has a better chance of winning in the top8.
2-2 Drop
The final standings go up and we realize that it would have been possible to draw our game in round 4 and win round 5 and we would both make top8. Oh well. Hindsight is always 20/20. Anyways here is the top8 as I remember it.
43 Land
UGr Threshold/Gro
Gw Terrageddon
No-Stick/Scepter Chant
Boros
Agro Loam
Agro Loam
Can't Remember
The finals were won by boros beating 43 land with three maindeck Price of Progress... Nice deck.
Good job, Boomchild, and I feel your pain about standings in Swiss rounds. Anyways, I guess I will be the 1st person to answer my own question, and say that I would probably cut 1x Ponder and 1x Hibernation Sliver from that 62 card list. I don't have a particularly convincing reason why those 2 should go, but rather that the other 2 should not. Winged is incredibly essential, we all know this. Being able to just sit behind your huge untargetable army and wait to draw winged dependably is frickin amazing. Though perhaps this is no longer as essential with the death of Gobos, and the 3rd Hibernation would be more important. Wow, that argument didn't get me anywhere. Finally, the 4th Thoughtseize should stay because it is just that frickin amazing. It can nab any problem before we even have to counter it! God I just can't get over the power of this card.
Kronicler
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By cutting Dazes, the only pieces of "control" left in the deck (for a UWgb version) would be 4 Thoughtseize and 4 FoW... I kinda like that idea... :tongue:
Also, now that Wastelands are on a decline (according to what I'm seeing), I guess now's the time to bust out those UWgb lists... Where I think Vial would be worthwhile, at the very least...
EDIT: I'm going to try this list out....
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains (hey, I'm a sucker for basics...)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
3 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Smother
4 Meddling Mage
3 Essence Sliver
Looks nice to me.
Hum it's true that it's time to go to 4-color, I would have loved to play Hibernation against control matchups. The metagame breakdown was pretty weird:
Landstill - 5
Goblins - 4
Fish - 3
Pikula - 3
Psychatog - 2
Madness - 2
Threshold - 1
BBS - 1
RGB Aggro - 1
White Stax - 1
5 Color Zoo - 1
Boros - 1
Belcher - 1
UB Control - 1
CounterSlivers - 1
IGGy Pop - 1
Aluren - 1
White Weenie - 1
MonoBlack - 1
Aggro Loam - 1
Elves - 1
At least I'm happy to know that the Goblins player that defeated me won the Tournament, he was very skilly and get to win Red Threshold in the final.
Well, black splash, that seems good, Daze may be the weakest card in the deck after Plated so it's ok to me. Thoughtseize seems very strong and, well Crystalline+Hibernation let us allow opponents resolve many things, I mean they dramatically reduce the number of opponents threats.
PS:That sounded very nerd...:cool:Quote:
I draw like 6.02x10^23 lands
With 8 fetchlands, 4 Thoughtseize, and 4 Hibernation Slivers, the life loss is just too much... So maybe I'll be going back to good ol' Duress for a while and see if it makes any difference. I'll be bringing in Smothers out of the board anyway for Tarmo.
I haven't faced Breakfast yet though, but I'm thinking that that's where Thoughtseize would shine the most over Duress.