Turnabout still allows you to move to the next phase, which empties their mana. Not saying it's better than Mana Short for that particular scenario, but it's functionally similar enough that the narrow Wish target seems unnecessary.
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Turnabout still allows you to move to the next phase, which empties their mana. Not saying it's better than Mana Short for that particular scenario, but it's functionally similar enough that the narrow Wish target seems unnecessary.
But the thing is, it costs 4 mana, so without Tide in play, it's going to be both of you tapped out. With Tide in play, they have the goods to go off around it. I think Mana Short is a fair bit too slow, as it does actually cost 4UU, and you could actually win the game in response.
-Slay
how does it cost 4UU?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
Here are the specs for reference:
Mana Short-2U
Instant
Tap all lands target player controls and empty his or her mana pool.
You have to cast Cunning Wish to get it.
Cunning Wish, as well as Mana Short, costs 2U.
2U + 2U = 4UU
Um...I'm not saying you cast Turnabout mid-combo. You cast it at the exact same time you would be casting Mana Short.
Would you be casting it at the end of yuor opponents turn? That seems doable but still fairly lame. And they can go off in response.
-Slay
They can go off in response to a Mana Short, too.
Yeah, exactly. I don't really know why were're talking about this, because there's almost no significant difference between Turnabout and Mana Short...
I agree, Turnabout does the same thing as Mana Short, whether it resolves or not.
One thing I've been thinking about lately is replacing Echoing Truth with Hurkyl's Recall. One of the main reasons for having two different bounce spells in the sideboard is Chalice. Barring a double Chalice situation, I think Recall is a better option, since it allows some protection against the various Stax decks. Having Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, and Rebuild is too much when there are so many other options you want to have there. Also, is Evacuation really necessary? Because of the Wizards articles, Philly might have a lot of White Weenie, but are situations like True Believer/Mother of Runes all that common? What other times will the card help? Seeing as how the main deck is pretty solid I want to begin optimizing the sideboard for Philly.
I think Rebuild is better than Recall, because Recall doesn't work if there's a Chalice set for two. Whereas a Chalice for three is very unlikely. I would go with the Chain of Vapors, Echoing Truth, Rebuild sideboard if I was expecting a lot of Stax.
Well, I suppose they're as common as double Chalice. Both don't usually happen but can make you lose games if you're not prepared.Quote:
but are situations like True Believer/Mother of Runes all that common?
Anyone have any clue what the savage Rabid Wombat tech is, and/or how to get around it? I'm assuming it's some combination of Abeyance, Orim's Chant, Chalice, Gilded Light and I don't know what else. We have been targeted by them, so they will have something. Game 1 should still be solid, but is there anything we can sideboard for the match?
The biggest problem is probably Gilded Light. It's really the only card you have to worry about; the other stuff is beatable by itself. Unfortunately, your answers are beatable by Gilded Light in most cases. What solutions are there to a prepared MWC player?
edit: IBA has listed an SB in the Wombat thread, and it looks like he's currently suggesting Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance and Rule of Law. Thoughts?
MWC is almost a bye. The purpose of a SB is to improve your worst matches. It makes little sense to SB cards for one of your best matchups just because they might fill their SB with hate.
Also, you win in response to Gilded Light, much like you would against any other hate. It's sort of like Goblins or Burn casting Sirocco, except MWC has no clock, so it should be very easy to win in response.
Edited By T is for TOOL on 1130889157
The way Wombat lays down land every turn like it's going outta style, Sphere seems like an excellent way to slow down Solidarity until Wombat plays Rule of Law or Glowrider, then an Angel, then beat face. Very interesting.
Preboard, you need to fight through up to 8 "counters"-Abeyance and possibly Gilded Light. When you have until turn 20, this isn't too hard, and you should win pretty much every game 1. However, when a Glowrider or Sphere of Resistance is coming down every turn 2/3 (and Rabit Wombat can afford to hate on this deck that much-we're the only tier 1 bad matchup they have), followed by a morphed Angel, AND they can screw you over with 2-mana "counters" when you try to be cute and find bounce, the matchup becomes a lot more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by T is for TOOL
Look in the Rabid Wombat thread, at IBA's sideboard. There's a discussion in that thread on how there are bad and good anti-combo cards, and they pretty much nail it. By running 7-8 2 and 3-mana threats that effectively stop you from winning, they are proactive, and you really can't play reactively and hope to control them. Honestly, if they run Gilded Light and 8-10 SB cards, I really don't think that you can win a sideboarded game without one of the following happening:
them being mana screwed, them playing badly, you having Force AND the turn 4 win (which is only good enough some of the time), or you going off in response to Glowrider on turn 3. If they play correctly, it will be REALLY hard to win, because you HAVE to care about what they're playing, and that is really bad for you.
You say that they might fill their SB with hate. What else do they have to SB against? They already completely serve the other "tier 1" decks, and random creature-based strategies will also get hosed. Their SB doesn't just hit us; it also hits the other Storm combo decks. Decree of Justice gives them strategy superiority over every counter-based deck that gives them the time to abuse Eternal Dragon. The only other real danger is Stax, but I think that that will be even less played than Solidarity, AND Sacred Ground solves the issue of Smokestack as well as Flashfires and other traditional hate. But even if they devote 4 slots to Sacred Ground and 3 slots to junk like Seal of Cleansing, they have half their sideboard, just for us.
Game 1, MWC is a joke. Against MWC players who think that Solidarity is a joke, you will get the bye. But you will get walloped by prepared Wombat players if you think that they can't SB for you.
Many players consider it cheating to have an 8 counter hand all game, and even if you play by the rules and discard down to 7 at the end of your turn, it’s awfully hard to make your land drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by DI419
When the opponent has Glowrider/Sphere of Resistance + Exalted Angel + 2-Mana counter every game, I would once again suspect that there was game afoot. Though it my just be personal preference, I only consider games when my opponent isn’t cheating. Out of curiosity, how exactly do their 2-mana counters stop you from bouncing a Sphere or a Glowrider?Quote:
Originally Posted by DI419
… Control??? High Tide is a combo deck. Also, of the cards you listed, only Glowrider and Exalted Angel are threats. Exalted Angel does nothing to stop you from winning, and Glowrider neutralizes a High Tide. There’s absolutely no reason to play proactively against MWC. You try and win when you are comfortable, or are forced to, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by DI419
So... you haven’t tested this? The MWC SB just looks that damn good on paper?Quote:
Originally Posted by DI419
Mana short is significantly better than turnabout when needing a spell to stop your opponent in the mirror. They can't let it resolve so if played in response to a spell they have to have resolve it stops them essentially the way Orim's Chant is used against Solidarity. Now Turnabout isn't really effective they just tap out float mana and thank you for the storm count. Maybe I'm not seeing when else you would be casting these spells so I may have missed the point.
Tool, you act as if Solidarity is invincible. Are you ignoring the anti Solidarity tech? If so, go right ahead and keep believing that there's nothing Wombat can do. If you're playing Solidarity and you're not prepared for Glowrider, Sphere, AND/OR Gilded Light, expect the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by T is for TOOL
As oposed to Turnabout, where they can let it resolve, but still have to go off because they'll lose if you move to the next phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhough
What it comes down to is; there's no effective way to prepare. Solidarity simply doesn't have a way to deal with 10+ permanents in a deck that come down turn 2-3 and hurt it that much. Not when they're all different permanent types, and on top of Abeyance. Any deck that devotes that much hate to Solidarity is going to give it a rough time games 2-3. The good news is, if they hate you that much, you must've won game 1 hardcore. Something can easily go wrong games 2-3, or you could just go to time. The new Wombat sideboard is good against Solidarity, no doubt, but Solidarity starts out with a handicap of +1 game.Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
"Sometimes Silver Knights kill Mischievous Quanars."
- Froggish expression, meaning, "Shit happens".
Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1130942480
Ok, a couple of things to note here. One, Jack's sideboard is actually very, very impressive. He's also right, that games 2-3 are guaranteed to be an uphill battle. However, there are a couple of things that could happen to nuke Jack's plan. 1) The nuts turn 3 win backed by force. 2) Jack being mana screwed. 3) Punching Jack in the face and running away. Now, I'm not so sure about number 3 but you still have two options games 2-3 that at least give you a fighting chance. It's also important to remember that NEITHER player wants to play this matchup. It's frustrating and irritating. The MWC player has to hope that his hate comes online before you do all while remembering that mulliganing into the hate may fuck him over. The solidarity player needs to analyze all of the possible situations and mulligan accordingly.
Just one more thing, the mana short and turnabout in the mirror match are terrible. I really don't think it's worthwhile to discuss it. It's been tried and failed so I'd recommend that we move to a new discussion about other things of note. Something like, discussion about the re-inclusion of Rebuild for GP: Philadelphia.