[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

No offence or anything, but way to be narrow headed. There are plenty of reasons to run red over white, and white over red. It all comes down to your playstyle, and your preference. With red you can burn your opponent out, red also has fledging dragon. Which will ALWAYS swing for more than an enforcer. Because of it requiring RR it will always atleast be a 7/5. Not to mention Red Elelental Blast out of the sideboard with Flametongue Kavu. Which is bomb in the mirror match by the way. Not to mention if you're looking to beat goblins red's removal is much greater against aggro decks. White has swords to plowshares and enforcer which are huge. Then things like tivadar's crusades SB if you wish. For the goblins match-up, Opps I forgot meddling mage... Mr. Pikula he just happens to be bomb in a combo metagame. Like I said it all comes down to your play style there are pros and cons to each side but don't be soo thick headed on the boards. One sided opinions may change new users opinions without knowing everything about each side.

Fledgling swings for less when there's a Pithing Needle in play :wink:

We have most certainly not all agreed that the White splash is better than the Red (although I think most people have agreed they're both better than the black.) The red splash has a faster clock and deals better with Aggro, the White splash has a better finisher (I don't care how many times you tell me Fledgling swings for more, he's harder to cast, and requires a mana investment after being cast; plus the pro-black can come in handy) a better combo/control matchup with Meddling Mage, and is able to handle larger threats better with Swords.

A lot of times when I'm taking Thresh to a local tournament, I sleeve up the core of the deck, and then I sleeve up the Red splash/sideboard and the White splash/sideboard, and when I get there I ask all my friends what they're playing, I scout around with the other kids, and I shuffle up one of them. This obviously doesn't work at a larger tournament, but I recommend testing with both versions, and playing them based on metagaming or play style, not because you think one is better than the other. There are reasons to play both.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the "let's stick with the variant that hasn't proven itself in a major tournament" plan. The white and red builds posted at the beginning of this thread placed in Top 8 at one of the two largest Legacy tournaments in history. If I'm going to "just stick" to any variant, it will be one of those two.

As for the differences between red and white, it's mostly a metgame call. Their finishers each have their pros and cons, but they're relatively even in terms of power level. Their draw and smaller beaters are comparable as well, as are their mana disruption tools (Winter Orb is roughly equal to Geddon in terms of effectiveness.)

There are two places they differ singificantly: removal and combo matchup. White has the better combo matchup (thanks to Mage), and has an easier time against fat creatures (StP). Red has a better matchup against weenie aggro, and Goblins, thanks to the 4 extra spot removal spells and Pyroclasm. While White has Tivadar's Crusade for Goblins, it is generally less effective than Pyroclasm because it's slower and it's easy for Goblins to keep the Thresh player off WW. Crusade also sucks against everything besides Goblins, which Pyroclasm does not.

White also tends to have a slight advantage in the mirror matchup, because StP is more efficient removal for threshed Werebears and Dragons, but this advantage tends to be relatively minor, in my experience.

The long and short of it is that if you're in an aggro heavy metagame, red will probably be the better choice, and if you're in a combo heavy metagame, white will likely be the better choice. They're roughly even against control.

What about the build that won GP: Lille? He was playing both red and white with the better aspects of both colors. There were some things about the deck I don't like though. The mana base seems a little shakey, especialy against wasteland. Also it seems like he didn't put in much for the goblins matchup except for maybe chill in the board, and focused more on the threshold mirror.

Ok i havent looked at the whole thread, but i have been playing NQG for a while and i have had lots of success in my area and our weekly tournaments.

My NQG list

Land 18

4 trops
4 tundras
4 poluted deltas
3 flodded strands
1 island
1 plains
1 forest

Draw

4 brainstorms
3 serums visions
4 predicts (ill explain )
2 fact or fiction

counter spells

4 force of will
4 counter spell

removal

4 swords to plowshares
3 echoing truth

creatures

4 meddling mage
4 mystic enforcer
4 werebear

unexpected surprize

2 cunning wish

Side board

1 bezerk
1 echoing truth
1 gaea's blessing
1 naturlize
1 stifle
10 meta killers, I use 4 chills 4 BeB's 2 hydro blasts because of my metta but would change 2 chills and 2 hydro blasts for 4 seal of clensing or 4 disenchants or 4 daze, again depending on your meta

I promiced to explain predicts, well here goes. EOT you have 3 lands so you brain storm ( one draw ) then place 2 cards back top being one you dont mind in grave yard, then predict naming top card and boom you get 2 card draw and 2 cards in graveyard for your bears and or enforcer. not to mention the one draw from brainstorm and one in graveyard.

I know i have less counters than other decks but i got more removal for what i wasnt able to counter or for blockers.

With regards to the UGRW build that won Lille, it was a solid build, but in many respects it was a highly metagamed deck. It was tuned specifically to beat other Thresh. If that's what you're looking for, then the 4c build is a good way to go. In most instances, I'd prefer the stability offered by one of the 3c manabases, though.

@dazed and confused:

What's up with the basic Forest and no way to fetch it?

@ dazed and confused: -1 Polluted Delta, +1 Flooded Strand (you're running a plains, and no swamp). And do something about that forest.

Only 3 Serum Visions? In my experience, this is the best cantrip you play. Fact or Fiction? Some games I don't even *HIT* the 4th land. How does this play for you?

4 Counterspell, no Daze? What do you do against early rushes, combo, etc.? I've even considered upping Daze from 3 to 4.

Consider Nimble Mongoose. He's perhaps the most important card in the mirror, and is great in so many situations. And do you find 4 Mystic Enforcer are needed? I'm running 3, and several times I've considered dropping to 2 for other things.

I like the Echoing Truth, but Cunning Wish? How have you found this? Seems to slow to make much of a change in any matchups.

No need to explain Predict, as it has been run for a while in several builds, but I would recommend testing Mental Note, as it speeds you up by a turn. But there is a need to explain Gaea's Blessing, what are these for?

I recently started playing NQG(UGw), and the list I came up with (based on the form for the deck in the origonal post) is almost exactly the same as the list bardo posted a few pages back, only I was using AK, and for some reason disenchant. I think I'll switch to bardo's list, EE and all. (thanks bardo!)

I've read the whole thread, and I find it interesting that nobody has suggested Opt as an alternative to Sleight of Hand. Clearly the effect is not quite as good, but there's alot to be said for it being an instant.

Another question: if gobbos can keep you off double white for tiv's crusade, would Hail Storm be a viable alternative? I believe it was mentioned in passing, but it was in referance to the UGr version.

Also, would someone who knows more about it than me be interested in posting an updated breakdown of matchups? It would be greatly appreciated.

peace

What do you guys think of using Strategic Planning in place of Mental Note? For 1U, Strategic Planning dumps three cards into the graveyard and digs three deep. SP also helps avoid losing a useful card to the graveyard that MT would.

@ BlindMage: I've considered Opt many times, and it's not a bad choice over the Sleight of Hands. I definitely wouldn't put it in for anything else, but if you find the instant speed being enough of an issue, try it out. I've usually found that I never want to leave UU open in the first few turns when I'm using the Sleight of Hand anyway, that's why I run the slight.

@ PTBNL: The 1 before the U is the reason I don't run it. That's it, simply. At first glance the Planning looks better, but Strategic Planning is a Sorcery that costs more (and therefore can never be used as a combat trick, like Mental Note).

Sorry for the double post, but it's a new subject.

Assume, hypothetically, that you are taking Threshold with a white splash to a tournament on Friday. You don't expect a highly competitive metagame, you know there will be some 3 Deuce, maybe some Solidarity, and some Relic Barrier/Winter Orb lock combo-ness (you've seen the one, right?). Probably not too much Goblins (you expect 0), and not likely to see a mirror, but you still want to come prepared for good stuff just in case, and you don't want to lose to any scrub decks.

Now the first problem that arises is this. You're playing the White splash, and can't expect to find Meddling Mages before game day (you only have one) so you've got to replace that slot. Other than that, you're basically going to play Bardo's list (except you also can't find Engineered Explosive, so you'll probably play a Pithing Needle or two).

Questions: What do you replace the Meddling Mages with, and what do you board? Maybe go with maindeck Worship for jank, try to play some catch alls in the board, or just prepare for the harder matchups and hope to clean up the jank with the maindeck?

You can get Needles but not Explosives? Wtf?

I know, I suck. I've got more than 60 duals, and I just had to trade for Peeks :)

I honestly have no idea what I would run in the Meddling Mage slot. More cantrips or perhaps a couple of Ischron Sceptar and Counterspells.

Here's a breif Threshold primer I wrote up. Tell me what you think.

Threshold is a deck that wins by playing a large amount of disruption, low casting cost creatures that get very large thanks to threshold, and a number of cantrips that draw you more cards and feed threshold. It is perhaps the most effective strategy in Legacy today. It's a rather easy deck to learn, and the best way to understand it is to simply put together the list below on a free program like Apprentice or Magic Workstation and test it out.

This is, in my opinion, the optimal threshold build.

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures:
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

Disruption:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
2 Repeal - This is your toolbox slot. Other possibilites for this slot include Misdirection, Pithing Needle, Isochron Scepter, Umezawa’s Jitte, and Engineered Explosives.

Cantrips:
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm


Explanation of Tool Box Choices:

When this list was first posted, Repeal was unknown. Now that it is, Repeal is endorsed in the toolbox slot for a number of reasons. There seems to be very little hype about the card despite the Guildpact prerelease being less than a week away. But the card is actually extremely effective in formats like Legacy where casting costs are so low. It can bounce back your own creatures in response to a Swords or Wrath while also drawing you an additional card. It can also bounce back critical cards like Meddling Mage, Survival of the Fittest or a blocker. You can often hold back on having to discard a Meddling Mage to use your Force of Will knowing that you can always bounce the card back to your opponent's hand with Repeal. In addition, running it as the answer to resolved spells over cards like Pithing Needle or Engineered Explosives means that all of your opponent's artifact and enchantment hate is now dead. This also means that they will likely not board in any artifact or enchantment removal while you are boarding in critical cards such as Worship, Pithing Needle or Serenity.

Umezawa’s Jitte is one of the best spells in the format and it boggles my mind that so few decks run them. But due to the fact that it can not be equipped onto your Mongooses and the fact that you rarely want to attack with Meddling Mage, along with the fact that it is somewhat slow and mana intensive when compared to your other spells, it may also be largely unneccesary for most matchups.

Isochron Sceptar is another card that can be very effective in certain situations. Optimally, you'll be able to stick a Counterspell on it and lock them down completely. If not, Swords on it will terrorize any creature based deck. Even a Brainstorm or Predict on it can be an incredibly effective card drawing engine, especially considering the number of fetchlands you run. And with the amount of countermagic you run, resolving it is never an issue. But it too is slow compared to the rest of your deck and is probably unneccesary.

Pithing Needle is probably not as worthwhile anymore since the metagame has adjusted for it. It's fantastic against many decks, but close to dead against a few others including the very important mirror matchup. Countermagic can already answer any threat and Meddling Mage is more versatile than it and comes with a 2/2 body to boot. But it's usefulness against certain specific decks makes it a great choice for metagames where the Needle will find multiple targets. Needle would also serve as a great sideboard option to common sideboard slots Withered Wretch and Tormod's Crypt.


Explanation of Mana Base:

I decided to run one Island instead of two (along with the Forest) because fetchlands are incredibly effective at filling the graveyard, making Brainstorm the best card in the deck and getting me precisely the mana type that I need. Even when mana screwed (very rare) and facing Wasteland, one Island on the board and another fetchland to get me the land type I need (or a basic Plains/Forest) in a pinch is often enough to ward off Wastelands. And that Island can meanwhile be used to play cantrips and draw into more lands or Werebears to get over the mana shortage. I've cut the mana base to seventeen because with twelve 1cc Cantrips, you just don't need any more.


Explanation of Creature Base:

The creature base needs no real explanation. While the Mystic Enforcer maybe a bit mana intensive, your Werebears can help out in a pinch to smooth out the mana curve.


Explanation of Sideboardable Cards:

Worship - This is a great sideboard card for decks that try to outrace you like Garv or decks that aim for your dome like Burn.

Serenity - A bomb against decks like Stax that run multiple artifacts and enchantments and a great removal for any artifact or enchantment as well if you decide to run no other enchantments or artifacts in your tool box slot.

Pithing Needle - As already mentioned, it's bomb against a number of decks as well as an answer to the Withered Wretchs and Tormod's Crypts that your opponent will be bringing in.

Naturalize - Multiple decks such as ATS are dependent on a critical artifact or enchantment ). This attacks that strategy. But realistically, this answers nothing that a combination of Swords, Serenity, Needle, Countermagic and, most importantly, Repeal don't already answer. So it's probably not worth running.

Engineered Explosives - This card can be effective against weenie rushes by decks such as Garv. But most of your creatures are low casting cost as well, and Worship can be just as effective in those situations. In short, don't run it.

i'm about to go off to gp rishmond and play in the 100 dual thingy so i needed a deck. being the great netdecker i am i looked at lille's results. i have a thing about playing 4 colors so i am not playing the deck that won. but then i looked a little further down and i saw Daniel krutil's list. now what sold me on the deck was two things, galina's knight and worship!!!!!

my little 2 cents on the splash issue, meddling mage is good. swords to plowshares is good. enforcer is good. lightning bolt is not as good as stp. fledling is not as good as enforcer. red has a faster clock, but the interactivity and the answers are gone. meddling mage is a house. and you get worship!!!!!!!

don't flame me i am just saying that i'd rather have answers and interactivity in my decks. if you are going for a faster win play the red splash, hey they are both proven decks.

Danial Krutil's top 8 decklist from lille
4 tropical island
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
1 plains
1 forest
1 island

18 land-

4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 galina's knight
2 meddling mage
2 mystic enforcer

16 creatures-

3 worship
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
3 predict
4 force of will
4 daze

26 spells-

3 stifle
2 seal of cleansing
3 pithing needle
2 meddling mage
3 umezawa's jitte
2 armegeddon

15 sideboard-

this deck has game against gobbos (worship, stp, galina's knight)
this deck has a bomb in mirror (worship, umezawa's jitte)
has answers to combo (meddling mage, pithing needle, geddon?)
and can lay the smack down to control (all critters + geddon)

as you can see white is very important in this meta...

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Also, would someone who knows more about it than me be interested in posting an updated breakdown of matchups?

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Not too much has changed since the time that Part 4 of the Threshold Primer was published on Starcitygames. That's still reasonably up to date and not a bad place to start.

As for how I sideboard today, since I don't own Needles, here's my current sideboard and what I bring in and out of my matches:

sb 4 Hydroblast
sb 2 Tivadar’s Crusade
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 2 Worship
sb 2 Armageddon
sb 1 Cursed Totem
sb 1 Nimble Mongoose
sb 1 Engineered Explosives


Goblins
+4 Hydroblast
+2 Tivadar’s Crusade
+2 Worship (?)
+1 Nimble Mongoose
-4 Meddling Mage
-2 Sleight of Mind
-1 Daze
-1 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Engineered Explosives

Sligh/RDW
+4 Hydroblast
+2 Worship
-4 Meddling Mage
-2 Sleight of Mind

Landstill
+2 Naturalize
+2 Armageddon
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Meddling Mage

High Tide / IGGy Pop
+2 Armageddon
-2 Swords to Plowshares

Survival
+2 Armageddon
+1 Naturalize
+1 Cursed Totem / Engineered Explosives
-2 Nimble Mongoose
-2 Sleight of Hand

Psychatog/Madness
+2 Armageddon
+1 Cursed Totem
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Nimble Mongoose

Stax
+2 Naturalize
+1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Counterspell

Fish
+2 Armageddon
+2 Naturalize
-2 Sleight of Hand
-2 Meddling Mage

BW Confidant (Pikula.dec)
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Cursed Totem (Shade, Wretch)
-2 Sleight of Hand

Affinity
+2 Naturalize
+1 Armageddon
+1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Sleight of Hand
-2 Daze

Re: Sleight of Hand, Here's a snip from my UGW Threshold Report in the Tournament Forum:

"So, yeah, Sleight of Hand is something I side out nearly every game. You’re of course wondering why it’s in the deck at all, right? Good deck design suggests if any one card is so expendable, it should probably be something else altogether. Here I can’t really disagree, but I’m always happy to draw it in game 1, since the deck has all of the tools it needs to win most matches anyhow, and Sleight helps you find those tools.

In games 2-3, I’m always happy to have something more specialized for the match than the Sleight since I don’t want to compromise the core of the deck. So Sleight is really a tool to make sideboarding easy as modular support for the deck (builds threshold, digs for answers/threats, blue spells to pitch to FoW, etc.). But in no case should you be running less than the twelve core cantrips (Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Mental Note)."

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Now the first problem that arises is this. You're playing the White splash, and can't expect to find Meddling Mages before game day (you only have one) so you've got to replace that slot. Other than that, you're basically going to play Bardo's list (except you also can't find Engineered Explosive, so you'll probably play a Pithing Needle or two).

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You can go old-skool on their asses and bust out Quirion Dryad. :)

But yeah, I'd test out Worship in the maindeck, and add another Mongoose (up to 4) and another Enforcer (up to 3).

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Engineered Explosives - This card can be effective against weenie rushes by decks such as Garv. But most of your creatures are low casting cost as well, and Worship can be just as effective in those situations. In short, don't run it.

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:(

I'm thinking your list, Bardo, -EE and Meddling Mage, 18 lands, 14 cantrips, 11 creatures, and 10 counterspells. With 4 Swords to Plowshares, that leaves 3 Worships maindeck. Is that too many? The creatures I'm running are 4 Nimble Mongoose, 4 Werebear, 3 Mystic Enforcer, and everything else is the same as your deck. I wouldn't mind testing Quirion Dryad, she might not be bad in this meta, but I would hesitate to play her because I think she might fundamentally change the way I play the deck. I'd want to be spending counter magic or Swords or cantrips in bad ways to keep her alive or grow her, which isn't good. So 3 Worship?

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I wouldn't mind testing Quirion Dryad, she might not be bad in this meta, but I would hesitate to play her because I think she might fundamentally change the way I play the deck. I'd want to be spending counter magic or Swords or cantrips in bad ways to keep her alive or grow her, which isn't good. So 3 Worship?

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Honestly, I'm not certain you have enough critters to justify 3 MD Worship. Krutil had 16 dudes. That's a lot of guys and I can see running 3 Worship there. But with only 11, I'd be inclined to be cautious and only run 2 -- if that. More than one will do nothing for you, and you don't want to monkey up your beautiful mana curve.

What's your sideboard?

I would try to fit more creatures, but I'd end up running things like Seton's Scout, which I don't want to do. The whole list looks like this right now:

4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Worship
2 Naturalize

But obviously there are three open maindeck slots. The rest is exactly Bardo's list subbing Mystic Enforcer and cutting the Mages and an EE. I could put in the old Disenchants or Naturalizes, or play a 1-of Meddling Mage, or play Pithing Needle main, I'm honestly just not sure. And if I take anything out of the side, Pithing Needle, Worship, Naturalize, I don't know what to put in its place. Suggestions? If I can find an EE, I will play it, but would you recommend more than one to fill up the space, if I can find them?

Pithing needle serves some of the roles meddling mage does--they both are speedbumps against combo (but pithing needle can be a speedbump against control and aggro too). Needle is very good against goblins, naming vial, port, and wasteland. It is good against Pikula, Flamevault, 3-deuce, Tog, and survival. You can even needle Solidarity's fetches, which is not as awful as it seems, because if you nail a fetch one in every 4 or 5 games, they can get pretty screwed. Alternatively, you could splash a few Volcanics and add Fire/Ice, Magma Jet, or Lightning Bolt, plus a slightly better SB. Lastly, you could add Predicts back in, since they would basically just cantrip/thin your deck out unless they gave you card advantage.