By "great" here you mean "less terribly than Storm combo of all sorts usually does", and not actually "a very positive matchup", right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
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By "great" here you mean "less terribly than Storm combo of all sorts usually does", and not actually "a very positive matchup", right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
It's not in TES's favor, but it's not as lop sided as it was before with Vexing Shusher coming in from the SB; Counterbalance isn't a guaranteed WTF PWNed any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
The deck is gaining a lot of ground post Shadow Moore.
It's not about comparing the two cards so much as pointing out the questionable arguments for it's inclusion. Diminishing Returns and Wipe Away are both "bricks" for Infernal Tutor, but the difference is Diminishing Returns is a threat and Wipe Away is an answer, so it seems paradoxical for the "bricks" argument to apply in one case and not the other, especially when threats>answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
I guarantee Ponder # 4 wins more games than a singleton Wipe Away does, the only open slots in this deck are really the 2 Draw 4s.
I'm still unsure on Wipeaway, I've only tested a few match-ups and it was good in the testing I did. If it remains I'm unsure. However, it was decent when I had it. Wipe away may become ponder #4 who knows. I was getting sick of Cabal Ritual when I cut it, which was the reason for the testing.
Finding wipeaway isn't as bad as people say, between 4x brainstorm, 3x ponder, 2x draw 4, and Diminishing Returns. You don't ave the power to tutor for it, but the option is still there.
More than likely it will become Ponder number 4.
Odd ball suggestion, but should we reconsider Death Wish in the open slots now that it can tutor for Vexing Shusher in the SB? That seems brutal against traditional control ala Landstill or U/w.
This may be a retarded thing to consider, but I was just wondering if anyone had tested Mystical Tutor recently? FT and TES are really different in how they play out, but one of the strong things about FT that TES doesn't have is ways to tutor for the best stuff like Wipe Away, Extirpate, Chant, DR, etc. I'll try to test it, but just throwing it out there. I would probably do this:
-1 Draw 4 (1 left MD)
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Other Card
+3 Mystical Tutor
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Extirpate
Thoughts? I really don't want to turn TES into FT at all because TES is way more explosive. I just want some MD ways to get rid of CB and destry control decks. Extirpate is awesome.
I did, TES can't withstand the card disadvantage and tempo loss to find Orim's Chant, you're better of just Brainstorming/Pondering for what you need while maintaining card parody.
Enlightened Tutor is a jank idea tho', being able to grab LED is better than being able to grab anything else, because it's the only card you can't run in pseudo copies like Orim's Chant and Abeyance or Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish etc., and you could tutor for Engineered Explosives to blow up Counterbalance.
Lim Dul's Vault could be worth a shot, but it's kind of slow.
What about Repeal? Single blue and not a dead card when you find nothing to bounce (as you can bounce your own Led / Petal to generate storm). Nothing overly exciting, but it has less chances to be a dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
Repeal doesn't have split second. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjabear
Yesterday I ended up taking first place in my first local event since I've been back from college. I ended up running my latest list but with 4 Ponder and 2 Paradise. Both of these figurations actually won me a round, I'll explain. 4 Ponder won be a round from I ETW on turn 1 for 16 against Landstill, swung, he engineered explosives. I cast 3 Ponder (shuffling all 3 times) and 2 Brainstorms looking for Tendrils. A random draw off Ponder found Tendrils and I ended up winning game one because of it. Game two, I draw Shusher and slam it down turn 2 after I played Land, Mox because he wasted my first land. Turn 3 combo out because he was afraid to use his force, ends up using it. I just pay a red and continue comboing. I end up with a bad returns hand and lose. Game three looks a lot like game one except I Brainstorm for storm twice, then chant, storm to 9 then play my Tendrils from the opening grip.
The second round Shusher single handily beat a tog control variant. Because he sided out all of his removal and he sat there making everything uncounterable.
EDIT: All together I was 4-0 against, Fetch Tendrils, Landstill, Tog Variant, Dragon Stompy.
Undiscovered Paradise and Ponder is bad, the deck is going to have more turn 1 plays to set up turn 2 wins, and you have greater selection of land drops from your cantripping/shuffling. If you bounce a land back to your hand after cantripping, it's like casting a Time Walk on your opponent, and you take away the luxury of hitting your land drops for two, or even three, turns in a row.
I've seriously lost more game to Unidscovered Paradise bounces than Diminishing Returns fizzles, you should be running some combination of Tarnished Citadel, Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid with 4 Ponder. Just start every goldfish with an Undiscovered Paradise and cantrip in hand, you'll see how awful that card is in no time at all. There's just no point in running a land with a definite, irrevocable draw back that affects your ability to combo compared to a land that just does damage. Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid are probably the worst of three options, but at least the blocker vs Empty the Warrens tokens or the storm you lose from Glimmervoid is less damaging to the combo turn than reducing your over all mana production and color selection.
This is neither here not there for TES, but Lim-Dul's Vault with Street Wraith is really kind of amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I understand what you're saying, don't get me wrong. I forgot to swap the Tarnished Citadel in yesterday before the event. However, round 3 I was at 1 from double Contract (First Contract put me to 8, 2 cities, Goyf swing, 2 life, contract again, 1, then Mox, Brainstorm and I needed to hit 2 mana sources that dealt me 0 damage. I hit paradise and SSG. Lands that don't deal you damage are huge. I'm not saying I'm keeping 2 paradise, I may, but they're definitely not as bad as you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
None the less, I definitly agree with you on Ponder. I'm now a huge fan of 4.
EDIT: New list in opening post.
What did you cut? I like the idea of 4 Ponder and Will test it out. Did you cut Cabal Ritul? I have not been liking them and looking at replacing them by adding more EtW, Tendrils, but Ponder seems like it could be just as good.
Also, Shusher just sounds like he is kicking ass. Even if the Tog player kept in his removal, it still makes his deck weaker against TES because he didn't side in hate. I am going to try and pick up a playset when I go to my cardshop.
Edit- I would love to just see your full list.
I find that Tarnished Citadel reduces your chances of making a come back when you fall behind (more life loss = less top decking), while Undiscovered Paradise increases your chances of falling behind in the first place. Hyperbole aside, I do think Undiscovered Paradise is the worst card in the deck, it's just a sinister card that doesn't reveal how bad it is until it decides to fuck you over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
On another subject, I've been having a ton of fun with a Doomsday in the SB, if you MD a Draw 4, you can put some really cool stacks together. It's probably unnecessary, but it can't hurt if you have the SB space.
I think the idea is cool, but my SB is full.
4 Pyroblast
4 Shusher
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 DR
1 Igg
1 Contract
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility / Hull Breach / Puroclasm / Duress
Shusher is making me really want to pick this deck back up. It just seems to ridiculous against almost every deck that posed TES a problem.
That said, I HATE 5C lands 9-10 in this deck, no matter what they are. A good alternative can't seem to be found to the really bad options that are out there. Chrome Mox isn't too hot either.
Does anyone think that this deck would be stronger with some combination of Fetches instead of the 5C lands and maybe 1 Chrome Mox? It's unlikely, but it seems that it could be worth testing, especially because the Cantrip count has gone up so much.
I tried this about a month ago, no lie. TES can't support fetchlands because we're too reliant on the 4 colors that we play. It seemed like every game I was cut off a color that I needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
anyone here knows the number of how often this deck craps out after a Dreturns with U floating (and storm ~5)?
sth like 3-4 out of 10 times ?
Normally, I have a BU from 2 LEDs, I don't know how you would just have U.Quote:
Originally Posted by zefhek
But on average with BU, its around 2 out of 10.