[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

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ARE YOU RETARDED? A) you seriously think that Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, Engineered Plague, the only finisher that I've seen mentioned that doesn't die to the rest of the deck's inherent weaknesses, and all of the other randomly useful SB (and MD) tech that black has to offer isn't relevant?!!!?? And that the two(!) cards that green offers are more relevant when they have parallels in white and bw? And white somehow gives you a relevant finisher... And you think that I can't support UU and BB in the same manabase in a TWO COLOR DECK?!! Two colors. Seriously? Do you not know about Ubw landstill? What about 4c? Uhh... Wow, I presume that your bias is too acute to actually argue with at this point.

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First off, your original post said nothing about having both a white AND a black splash, so all of the "parallels in white and bw" are not available to you. You were proposing a mono-black list, which was even more evident when you threw capslock on and typed out "TWO COLOR DECK?!!" If you're playing a two color deck you don't get O-ring or Kgrip unless you're in their colors. You lose almost all relevant artifact and enchantment disruption and that means you scoop to quite a few cards, I.E. Humility, 3sphere, Moat, ect.

Yea, you get Plague, Confidant, Leyline, Extripate, and thoughtseize. Ok, so In a deck with 3 trinket mages main, I'm not going to run leyline. I'm going to run crypt, as crypt takes up less slots, is less taxing on the manabase, and serves a very similar purpose. I've already expressed that I don't think Confidant is necessary. The fact that you want to run Confidant, Force, and Tombstalker in the same deck doesn't ring any bells for you at all? Ripping Tombstalker and taking eight is probably one of the least fun experiences you can have playing any deck. Besides this fact, we already have standstill. The draw engine in the deck is perfectly fine as it is.

Engineered plague is great against Goblins. Thats fine and all, but again, this card does NOTHING to Control decks, and does very little against a wide variety of decks that aren't trying to ETW or beat with piledriver. Speaking of Combo, yea, Extirpate is a total house against combo. Except that this deck runs 4x Stifle, 4x Force, 4/3x Daze, some number of spell snares, and on the front page of this very thread it states

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TES Preboard 70/30- Daze, FoW, Spell Snare, Stifle and Standstills to replenish hand. Definetally don't let a Chant Resolve. Counterbalance is probally your MVP here.
Postboard 70/30- You bring in chills to hose down their random kill conds and excell like ETW and Rite of Flame. Also Echoing Truth kills them when they combo off with ETW. Makes it very hard for them to recover from this.
[Side, -1 Spell Snare -2 Trinket Mage, -1 Pithing Needle, +2 Chill +2 Echoing Truth]

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We already wreck combo. We don't really need to wreck it any harder.
Sure, Chills haven't been in the sideboard for a while, but we now have BEBs. And again, unless you manage to send Humility/Moat/3shpere to the graveyard (Which you can't) you can't extripate them, or any other non-sacrificing artifact or enchantment. Sure, you have thoughtseize for those cards. But thoughtseize needs to be cast before these spells hit the table, where Kgrip and Oblivion ring can nail them after they hit, which is a major bonus, as you can dig for Kgrip/Oring after a problem card hits play, whereas you can't dig for thoughtsieze, as it will do nothing in that situation.

Black does offer a lot of great spells, but most of those spells are ones that improve a function of the deck that already works fine without the black splash.


If you want to run a white and a black splash with 7 lands that produce no colored mana, in a format where quite a few decks are packing wastes and other non-basic disruption maindeck, be my guest. You will have mana problems. For Refrence:
This is the manabase used by Tacosnape in his Uwbg Landstill list. (Taken right from the tread in the DTB section)

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

He runs four more lands than we do, at 24. He runs no basics. He only runs 6 non-color producing lands MD. Dreadstill only runs 20 lands. These manabases are hardly comparable. We run a tighter ship with the same (more in this case) colorless producing lands. He's actually running 18 lands that produce colored mana to our 13 lands that produce colored mana, and he doesn't even have any basics maindeck. You cannot assume you will be able to reliably get three colors out of only 12-13 color-producing lands maindeck, and still keep a high count of basic islands. In order to get all three colors for your double black and double blue, you will need to cut most if not all of your basics. Your manabase will weaken significantly. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you're going to run into problems.

As a side note, I'm not hating on Tacosnape's manabase. He rocks, his decks rock, he's better at this game than me, blah blah designed dragonstompy, blah. I'm not really trying to hate on anybody, but I also don't think my posts are being taken that way.

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So you're playing th Ug list in an agro-oriented metagame (the only place where real agro can survive)... Otay, that's an enormout mistake, as you should take the Ur list and rip holes in that metagame with PyroK and Firespout. Also, turn four isn't that late against agro if you're playing the deck right (i.e. stopping relevant threats, disrupting their manabase/ keeping a fair hold on the stack), so I don't know what to say to that portion of your argument.

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I'm not playing in an aggro meta. We get a decent amount of Combo, a decent amount of Threshold, and quite a few control decks (I'm lumping Mono-White Stax, Moonstax, enchantress, and quite a few other decks in here) that doesn't mean I don't run into the random Sligh/Gobbos/aggro deck. My original point was that Gofy is going to be a lot better against aggro than Tombstalker, not that green was the best color against aggro. Green isn't. But Goyf IS better against aggro decks than Tombstalker.

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Also, the deck runs 10 lands that don't stay in play and >20(!) non-permanent spells, depending on the list, of course. So you're saying that, out of 10 cards at minimum (meaning no BS/ Digging in the first 4 turns), less then 4 of them are going to the yard. 10/2 = 5. Where are you deriving your points from? Seriously, I'd like to know, because it's apparent you aren't pulling them from facts or logic.

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Just because my opening hand has four or five cards that are capable of going to the graveyard, does not mean I'm going to immediately put them there, or that I will immediately have the mana to put them there. Of the ten lands that don't stay in play, I'm going to assume you are thinking four are wastelands. Those four lands probably wont just get tossed into the grave, as I'm going to need them to play stuff. Unless I hit two fetchlands (of the six in my deck) I'm only going to have zero to one lands in the yard by turn 3/4, as I'm going to be using my wasteland to cast spells. If I've got stifle in my opening hand, I'm not unnecessarily going to throw it at the first fetchland I see. I'll probably hold onto it for Noughts/more relevant cards. This is probably a playstyle difference between the two of us. I'll pass it off as that at least.

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Have fun with your Tarmogoyfs and KGrips, I'll just be off over here drawing cards like a champ, crushing control and Agro-control, having game against Ichorid, stoping threats both reactively and proactively, have MD removal to stop your retarded 'Goyfs, swing over a gummed up board ftw, and prolly not loosing to the threshold player that runs both CB and Threads of Disloyalty in the MD that's going to rape your house, much less your couch. Enjoy yourself out there =] ^_^

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Ok, Borderline Flame? It's not like I care, but I'm assuming you don't want warnings. I'd appreciate it personally if you kept a level head as well, as it makes your points much easier to understand/make counterpoints to. Thanks.

and as for your logic in this argument, I fail to see how you can crush control when you have no outs against (I feel like a broken record) Moat/Humility/3sphere/any artifact or enchantment your opponent plays. Drawing cards like a champ is offset by losing eight life like a chump, as well as the fact that every other version of the deck is capable of drawing plenty of cards. We. Run. Standstill. We don't really need confidant when we have plenty of draw power already.

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prolly not loosing to the threshold player that runs both CB and Threads of Disloyalty in the MD that's going to rape your house, much less your couch.

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Green has Kgrip for CB and Threads. Black has no outs to either of those spells when they either counter >half you deck, or steal your nought.

Irony much?

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stoping threats both reactively and proactively

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Please enlighten me. How does the black splash reactively stop 3sphere or Humility or Counterbalance, or any other artifact or enchantment. Please don't say Oring, because again, it's my understanding you're not playing white.

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TWO COLOR DECK?!! Two colors.

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Remember?


Listen, I'm not trying to hate on you personally. I sincerely apologize if thats how it sounded in my first response to you. I'm not saying your ideas are irrelevant, only that the Mono-black splash of Dreadstill is going to be less effective in that it has very few responses to several well-played cards, where other splash colors have numerous responses to those cards. In my humble opinion, a splash color should be added to shore up weaknesses of a deck, or to give a deck a significant boost in power. The Green splash in dreadstill offers a reliable finisher, and a reliable out to artifacts and enchantments, which blue by itself is lacking. The black splash offers what is (again, in my opinion) a less reliable finisher, no outs to artifacts and enchantments, and a number of cards that accomplish things that this deck is already very well capable of doing without them, paired with a great draw spell (Confidant). However, because Blue already has a great surplus of draw spells that are being run in this deck, and because of the riskiness of the drawspell that black offers, my mindset is that dreadstill is going to move towards a green or white splash. None of this argument is a personal attack on you, and none of it is meant to be.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this (assuming you did).

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Originally Posted by Maagler

I have been playtesting the deck with the 4 Enlightened Tutor, and have found it to be very powerful. There is some great synergy with Enlightened Tutor and counterbalance, also it is cheaper than trinket mage which I am finding to be on e of the weaker cards in the deck.

also the deck boasts 2 shackles which give the deck a powerful way to deal with opposing creatures.

I think I still need more testing but I am starting to like the deck more and more with every game.

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I had been saying that from the getgo, when I started my dreaded fish thread... however, no body listens to the genius....

Also, at the person who said meddling mage is amazing fro protecting dreadnought ------> I was also ignored on that point as well...

However, I stopped playing dreadnought a long time ago... I just wanted to point out that I have been right all this time, and people are fools not to listen to me when I am actually trying to say something.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

meddling mage is amazing fro protecting dreadnought ------> I was also ignored on that point as well...

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Pretty sure I did that first.....

The dreaded fish thread started on 12/28/07, whereas this thread started in 3/18/08... My first post of that thread included maddling mage for the first sample list... add into the fact that I had been fiddling with dreadnought for a while before that...

Needless to say, I beat you to the punch by.... at least 3 months.. however, I would also state that this is just when you had made your thread, and I could have beaten you to the punch even longer than that.

Also...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...9&postcount=66


My first list posted here for a dreadnought deck: 9/6/07


I also believe I beat you to this concept as well...

However, you were the one that developed it into being a competitive force...

For that, I give Kudos... I just want some recognition is all :) .


That was the first Ug dreadnought deck of its' class... an updated version (not sure if this belongs here or not)... would look like this:


lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
1 breeding pool
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 island


creatures//11
4 tarmogoyf
4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 trinket mage

spells//31
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 daze
4 force of will
2 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 engineered explosives
1 wipe away
1 rushing river


The deck is very similar in concept to dreadstill... although it is slightly less controlling, and slightly more aggressive... different breeds, if you will...

The sideboard would be determined by meta, of coarse.

Yes but your first post here had zero to do with Meddling Mage. I also didn't even know that a Dreaded Fish thread existed until page 15 of this thread, but whatever it doesn't matter.

You're right... it doesn't matter too much...

The bottom line is that mage is a good card for dreadnought decks as he allows this deck to proactively deal with threatening cards that may pop up, as well as stop this decks' bane (grip), allowing you to stop their solutions from there on out (their removal, which will be pointed at mage, is not split second... ).

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

First off, your original post said nothing about having both a white AND a black splash, so all of the "parallels in white and bw" are not available to you. You were proposing a mono-black list, which was even more evident when you threw capslock on and typed out "TWO COLOR DECK?!!" If you're playing a two color deck you don't get O-ring or Kgrip unless you're in their colors. You lose almost all relevant artifact and enchantment disruption and that means you scoop to quite a few cards, I.E. Humility, 3sphere, Moat, ect.

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And don’t forget CB, you’ll eat it to a resolved CB. Considering that there are a good few metagames where those cards aren’t played, the black splash can be entirely viable as a stand alone, although I’d still recommend the Uwb deck over the Ub list outside of certain situations. Also, yes, you were arguing the possibility of running two colors in a 20 lands deck. I simply responded to that. Considering that there have already been manabases in this thread that could hold up the bw splash, I’m pretty sure we all know it can happen.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Yea, you get Plague, Confidant, Leyline, Extripate, and thoughtseize. Ok, so In a deck with 3 trinket mages main, I'm not going to run leyline. I'm going to run crypt, as crypt takes up less slots, is less taxing on the manabase, and serves a very similar purpose.

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Leyline isn’t vulnerable to Pithing Needle, comes into play at the beginning of the game, and doesn’t even have to go on the stack, so I think that your concern about the Manabase is a little petty, considering that you’re going to have to Mage your crypt out anyway.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

I've already expressed that I don't think Confidant is necessary. The fact that you want to run Confidant, Force, and Tombstalker in the same deck doesn't ring any bells for you at all? Ripping Tombstalker and taking eight is probably one of the least fun experiences you can have playing any deck. Besides this fact, we already have standstill. The draw engine in the deck is perfectly fine as it is.

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Well, SDT > Dark Confidant, so if you ever have that happen, well… Sorry? I’ve played with Confi and TS in decks without SDT, and it happens like once every 983450893 games. Seriously, it’s almost a non-issue without top and it shouldn’t be a problem in the least with top. Also, Confidant isn’t a draw spell, he’s a draw engine that rewards you progressively over the course of the game, win you the resource war against Control, and keep your hand filled with disruption against combo. A little bit less than stellar against agro, but if you need him to he’ll dig you into a PD and Stifle/ Trickbind.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Engineered plague is great against Goblins. Thats fine and all, but again, this card does NOTHING to Control decks, and does very little against a wide variety of decks that aren't trying to ETW or beat with piledriver. Speaking of Combo, yea, Extirpate is a total house against combo. Except that this deck runs 4x Stifle, 4x Force, 4/3x Daze, some number of spell snares, and on the front page of this very thread it states... We already wreck combo. We don't really need to wreck it any harder.
Sure, Chills haven't been in the sideboard for a while, but we now have BEBs. And again, unless you manage to send Humility/Moat/3shpere to the graveyard (Which you can't) you can't extripate them, or any other non-sacrificing artifact or enchantment. Sure, you have thoughtseize for those cards. But thoughtseize needs to be cast before these spells hit the table, where Kgrip and Oblivion ring can nail them after they hit, which is a major bonus, as you can dig for Kgrip/Oring after a problem card hits play, whereas you can't dig for thoughtsieze, as it will do nothing in that situation.

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Fine then, play Infest, Dry Spell, or freaking Hideous Laughter if you don’t like E. Plague and/or have problems with non goblin agro and non EtW token swarms. Or E. Truth. Seriously, it’s not like E. Plague is bad, it’s a metagame card, just like everything else in the SB most likely is.

Extirpate also hoses Threshold, other control, Ichorid, is strong against the Mirror (last I heard, Dreadstill isn’t that hot without the FoWs) and is just generally good against a large number of decks outside Agro. Also, you can, you know, counter stuff and Extirpate it then. I presume that if you’re really worried about those pesky enchantments you could have Thoughtseize in addition to the standard Countermagic suite and DC drawing you into a steady stream of said disruption and permission.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Black does offer a lot of great spells, but most of those spells are ones that improve a function of the deck that already works fine without the black splash.

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So you’re arguing against strengthening the deck? Lolwut?

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

If you want to run a white and a black splash with 7 lands that produce no colored mana, in a format where quite a few decks are packing wastes and other non-basic disruption maindeck, be my guest. You will have mana problems. For Refrence:
This is the manabase used by Tacosnape in his Uwbg Landstill list. (Taken right from the tread in the DTB section)

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

He runs four more lands than we do, at 24. He runs no basics. He only runs 6 non-color producing lands MD. Dreadstill only runs 20 lands. These manabases are hardly comparable. We run a tighter ship with the same (more in this case) colorless producing lands. He's actually running 18 lands that produce colored mana to our 13 lands that produce colored mana, and he doesn't even have any basics maindeck. You cannot assume you will be able to reliably get three colors out of only 12-13 color-producing lands maindeck, and still keep a high count of basic islands. In order to get all three colors for your double black and double blue, you will need to cut most if not all of your basics. Your manabase will weaken significantly. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you're going to run into problems.

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1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
4 tundra

That’s the Manabase from thefreakaccident’s most recent list in the Uwx landstill thread. Notice that you could basicly invert the W and B fetch land and dual count, tweak the ratios of them slightly, and have a playable Manabase. I presume that it would look something like this:

3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Island

With the Island being enough with 6 fetches to nab your basic to BEB Dragon Stompy’s manadenial if you’re on the play. If not, well, it’s a bad mu. Don’t play 3c in a Dstompy metagame. That’s true of about 90% of 3c decks. Bawww, you don’t have as many basic Islands. Against everything but Dragon Stompy that’s a pretty much irrelevant point.

Also, you were the one saying that’s it was impossible to get UU and BB out of 13 color producing lands. I was responding to that claim. I’ll readily admit that the 3c Manabase isn’t as stout. That’s true of all decks.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

As a side note, I'm not hating on Tacosnape's manabase. He rocks, his decks rock, he's better at this game than me, blah blah designed dragonstompy, blah. I'm not really trying to hate on anybody, but I also don't think my posts are being taken that way.

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No-one would infer that. I think there’s a general consensus that eh is a pretty cool guy and doesn’t afraid of anything :tongue:

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

I'm not playing in an aggro meta. We get a decent amount of Combo, a decent amount of Threshold, and quite a few control decks (I'm lumping Mono-White Stax, Moonstax, enchantress, and quite a few other decks in here) that doesn't mean I don't run into the random Sligh/Gobbos/aggro deck. My original point was that Gofy is going to be a lot better against aggro than Tombstalker, not that green was the best color against aggro. Green isn't. But Goyf IS better against aggro decks than Tombstalker.

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Or you could just play tight and have a stronger deck with elements that dodge hate that hoses the traditional drawbacks of the rest of your deck… Just throwing out an idea :]

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Just because my opening hand has four or five cards that are capable of going to the graveyard, does not mean I'm going to immediately put them there, or that I will immediately have the mana to put them there. Of the ten lands that don't stay in play, I'm going to assume you are thinking four are wastelands. Those four lands probably wont just get tossed into the grave, as I'm going to need them to play stuff. Unless I hit two fetchlands (of the six in my deck) I'm only going to have zero to one lands in the yard by turn 3/4, as I'm going to be using my wasteland to cast spells. If I've got stifle in my opening hand, I'm not unnecessarily going to throw it at the first fetchland I see. I'll probably hold onto it for Noughts/more relevant cards. This is probably a playstyle difference between the two of us. I'll pass it off as that at least.

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So you’re not going play reactively in a control deck, you’re not going to tap your Wastelands for mana when playing TS (it adds the same amount of mana wherever it is, as far as that‘s concerned), you’re not going to use fetch lands for mana, and you’re not going to play your Stifles prudently (I.e. hitting fetches) when you know you’re going to have a TS in hand/ already have one? That sounds like dubious play choices based on the knowledge you have (Yes, you shouldn’t expend resources needlessly, so I’d assume you’d assume a TS in hand/ you knew one was coming up, and let's not make like the Human Torch, plz).

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Ok, Borderline Flame? It's not like I care, but I'm assuming you don't want warnings. I'd appreciate it personally if you kept a level head as well, as it makes your points much easier to understand/make counterpoints to. Thanks.

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Uh… Really? That’s what the deck would do with the options black has. To say that the cards would do something other than what they do, and then take it as a flame is kinda strange, but I presume people are people.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

and as for your logic in this argument, I fail to see how you can crush control when you have no outs against (I feel like a broken record) Moat/Humility/3sphere/any artifact or enchantment your opponent plays. Drawing cards like a champ is offset by losing eight life like a chump, as well as the fact that every other version of the deck is capable of drawing plenty of cards. We. Run. Standstill. We don't really need confidant when we have plenty of draw power already.

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A) I really don’t think that either landstill or MUC gives a fuck about standstill. Just my two cents.
B) If you seriously are that worried about the interaction, I don’t know what to say. I mean, the curve of the deck is like, 1.2. You’re not going to take that much damage, and if you’re still going to bawl about the one in 1000 chance of hitting a TS off of a blind Confidant reveal, I don’t know what to say.
C) Having more proactive solutions and the same amount of reactive answers (in the Ub version, not the Ubw version, that’s fine just fine with your laundry list of enchantments and whatnot), alongside with more draw to keep fully stocked, I think I’ll be just as well off (although of one of those resolves, outside Humility, I can just play TS and beat through like normal if need be. 3 sphere would certainly be annoying, but it doesn‘t hinder my secondary win condition as ridiculously as it does my primary).

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Green has Kgrip for CB and Threads. Black has no outs to either of those spells when they either counter >half you deck, or steal your nought.

Irony much?

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Hove fun taking my TS with Threads over there. Also, I think the Ubw lists are > the Ub lists because of the stronger removal options and multiple outs to artifacts and enchantments. Better now?

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Please enlighten me. How does the black splash reactively stop 3sphere or Humility or Counterbalance, or any other artifact or enchantment. Please don't say Oring, because again, it's my understanding you're not playing white. Remember?

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Hove fun taking my TS with Threads over there. Also, I think the Ubw lists are > the Ub lists because of the stronger removal options and multiple outs to artifacts and enchantments. Better now?

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Listen, I'm not trying to hate on you personally. I sincerely apologize if thats how it sounded in my first response to you. I'm not saying your ideas are irrelevant, only that the Mono-black splash of Dreadstill is going to be less effective in that it has very few responses to several well-played cards, where other splash colors have numerous responses to those cards. In my humble opinion, a splash color should be added to shore up weaknesses of a deck, or to give a deck a significant boost in power. The Green splash in dreadstill offers a reliable finisher, and a reliable out to artifacts and enchantments, which blue by itself is lacking. The black splash offers what is (again, in my opinion) a less reliable finisher, no outs to artifacts and enchantments, and a number of cards that accomplish things that this deck is already very well capable of doing without them, paired with a great draw spell (Confidant). However, because Blue already has a great surplus of draw spells that are being run in this deck, and because of the riskiness of the drawspell that black offers, my mindset is that dreadstill is going to move towards a green or white splash. None of this argument is a personal attack on you, and none of it is meant to be.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this (assuming you did).

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It’s a forum of development and design. We attack the ideas, not the person :] I don't take things personally here. At any rate, I presume we’ve come to a point where it’s time to agree to disagree. On a side note, does anyone think that removing the Wastelands to support a 3c splash better would be feasible?

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Originally Posted by raharu

On a side note, does anyone think that removing the Wastelands to support a 3c splash better would be feasible?

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Absolutley not, Wasteland is so strong in this deck it's stupid. Trust me I tried to remove them a while back and it didn't go well. You need them to fight under Standstills, kill manabases(especially important if your list is running 2 Trickbind, which it should be).

I'm not sure if the Ubw lists look to good, they seem like they have to many clunky cards in them. I really don't like Tombstalker in this deck, not because revealing it with Bob sucks, but because you can't reliably cast it against any deck that packs Wastelands and/or Moon effects.

The arguments over X-splash is better then Y-splash for Z-reasons is kinda silly really. I recently checked out splashes that have done well and this is what I configured. I used this http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreadstill and some small T8 tournaments in the T4 and T8 Thread to put together some results of which splashes have been doing the best.

Placings:

Mono U- 4
UB- 3
UG- 10
UR- 4
UGR- 5
UW- 5

Seems like UG has been preforming the best due to Goyf most likely. UGR and UW seem be doing second best to it and UB seems to be the most underpowered. And to cutting Wastelands from Dreadstill I'd have to go with absolutely not. You need them to win the Standstill battles if and when your oponents play manlands and/or their own wastes.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

... UB seems to be the most underpowered.

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I don't know about that Rodney I think it's under played.

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And don’t forget CB, you’ll eat it to a resolved CB.

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How do I eat it to a counterbalance when I have removal for counterbalance?? If any splash version eats it to counterbalance, its the one with no removal for CB, which is the black one... I think there must be either a mistype in that section of your post, or I'm not getting the way you worded that response correctly.

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Also, you were the one saying that’s it was impossible to get UU and BB out of 13 color producing lands. I was responding to that claim. I’ll readily admit that the 3c Manabase isn’t as stout. That’s true of all decks.

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My problem with a mono-black splash has been primarily with the lack of disruption for permanents. The mana base is shakier as well, what with needing double-black for TS as opposed to single green for Tarmogoyf, but thats less important than the fact that you flat-out scoop to several cards.

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Considering that there have already been manabases in this thread that could hold up the bw splash, I’m pretty sure we all know it can happen.

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I never said it couldn't happen. I've said twice:

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I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you're going to run into problems.

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It could work, but you can kiss all those lovely basic islands goodbye.

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I never said anything about it not ever working. I said you're going to have problems with the manabase. Decks that hate on the manabase hurt even in the two color version of the deck, it's just the nature of all the nonbasics we play. But the three color version gets even MORE hate, because it has a hard time running ANY basics, as the list you provided only manages to squeeze one in. Dragonstompy isn't fun, and getting blood mooned back into the stoneage is a terrible way to get a game loss.

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Leyline isn’t vulnerable to Pithing Needle, comes into play at the beginning of the game, and doesn’t even have to go on the stack, so I think that your concern about the Manabase is a little petty, considering that you’re going to have to Mage your crypt out anyway.

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It's less about the mana concerns, and much more about the needing to run four leylines, whereas I need to run one crypt, with three trinkets to find it. That opens up a lot more space for other cards not singularly beneficial to only a few specific matchups. Also, all of your benefits only apply if you manage to get leyline into your opening hand. Not impossible by any means, but obviously not guaranteed.

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Well, SDT > Dark Confidant, so if you ever have that happen, well… Sorry? I’ve played with Confi and TS in decks without SDT, and it happens like once every 983450893 games. Seriously, it’s almost a non-issue without top and it shouldn’t be a problem in the least with top.

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We run only two SDTs. There's no guarantee we're going to hit one, just as there's no guaranteed that we're going to hit TS with confidant. But it happens. Even if you only hit TS with confidant once in an entire tournament, its going to essentially lose you the game you draw it. I don't like having my deck lose the game for me, even if it's only one game in several.

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Fine then, play Infest, Dry Spell, or freaking Hideous Laughter if you don’t like E. Plague and/or have problems with non goblin agro and non EtW token swarms. Or E. Truth. Seriously, it’s not like E. Plague is bad, it’s a metagame card, just like everything else in the SB most likely is.

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I'm not saying it's a bad card. I'm saying we don't need it. We rock combo pretty hard as it is, and we really don't need to shore up the match up anymore. Yea, you bring in E.Plague against Gobbos too, but I mostly see myself playing this against ETW decks, where I already have an advantage and don't need any more. If I'm going to spend sideboard space shoring up matchups, I want cards that help problem matchups, not ones I'm already doing well in.

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Extirpate also hoses Threshold, other control, Ichorid, is strong against the Mirror (last I heard, Dreadstill isn’t that hot without the FoWs) and is just generally good against a large number of decks outside Agro.

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I never said it was good against agro, I said it was good against combo, but I see your point here. Extripate is a wonderfull card. I just think that it falls short when compared to the options offered by other colors, namely green.

Oh hey, ya know whats really good in the mirror match? Kgrip. Just sayin...

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A) I really don’t think that either landstill or MUC gives a fuck about standstill. Just my two cents.

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Pretty sure there's a few decks out there that don't give a fuck about Confidant too. Just for the record.

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B) If you seriously are that worried about the interaction, I don’t know what to say. I mean, the curve of the deck is like, 1.2. You’re not going to take that much damage, and if you’re still going to bawl about the one in 1000 chance of hitting a TS off of a blind Confidant reveal, I don’t know what to say.

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I do. You should say "If you're that worried about sucking eight damage off of an easily avoided interaction between two cards in your maindeck, you shouldn't play the black splash". There ya go. I'll go ahead and take that advice now.

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C) Having more proactive solutions and the same amount of reactive answers (in the Ub version, not the Ubw version, that’s fine just fine with your laundry list of enchantments and whatnot), alongside with more draw to keep fully stocked, I think I’ll be just as well off (although of one of those resolves, outside Humility, I can just play TS and beat through like normal if need be. 3 sphere would certainly be annoying, but it doesn‘t hinder my secondary win condition as ridiculously as it does my primary).

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Unless you have TS in your hand when the 3sphere hits the board, I really don't see you digging for it with three-mana brainstorms, Standstills and Confidants. Or at least not digging for it fast enough to matter. In the black-splash only version of this deck, you simply do not have enough outs to well played permanent solutions. Despite your proactive thoughtseizes, you can't do anything against your opponent ripping one of those cards off the top, or brainstorming to hide said card, or tutoring, ect.

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Don’t play 3c in a Dstompy metagame. That’s true of about 90% of 3c decks. Bawww, you don’t have as many basic Islands. Against everything but Dragon Stompy that’s a pretty much irrelevant point.

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You don't have any dragonstompy in your meta? :confused: And besides this, there are other decks where that's a serious concern. Against Geddonstax they can rail you with a Crucible if you're not careful enough to have some basics main. Or if you have no artifact or enchantment disruption. Or both. Actually, against just about anything with a dedicated mana denial strategy, you really want the basics.

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Hove fun taking my TS with Threads over there.

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Ok, so you get the novelty of having your secondary win condition not be removed by threads, while I have the ability to deal with threads, as well as the rest of my laundry list, using Kgrip. I think I'll take that tradeoff.

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Please enlighten me. How does the black splash reactively stop 3sphere or Humility or Counterbalance, or any other artifact or enchantment. Please don't say Oring, because again, it's my understanding you're not playing white. Remember?

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Hove fun taking my TS with Threads over there. Also, I think the Ubw lists are > the Ub lists because of the stronger removal options and multiple outs to artifacts and enchantments. Better now?

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Thats really not a response to the statement I made. And you have the exact same response to a different statement earlier. I'm assuming this was a copy mistake, but I do appreciate that you can see you need removal options for artifacts and enchantments. Thats what I've been trying to get at this whole time.

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Placings:

Mono U- 4
UB- 3
UG- 10
UR- 4
UGR- 5
UW- 5

Seems like UG has been preforming the best due to Goyf most likely. UGR and UW seem be doing second best to it and UB seems to be the most underpowered.

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*Cough*

I'll admit that it is likely that the black version is more underplayed that it is underpowered, but that doesn't stop it from having less wins that then green splash, or the green/red splash.

But, as you said:

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At any rate, I presume we’ve come to a point where it’s time to agree to disagree.

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Wonderful. I agree.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

For that, I give Kudos... I just want some recognition is all :) .

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Asking for recognition for an archetype is usually pointless since everyone fights over development originality. It's not like everyone of us thought of a blue Stifle Nought deck when we heard of his errata. The thing is you get your deck rep by winning with it. These guys have placed tons of top eights with the deck and that's why I take what they say about it more seriously.

Needless to say people that win large scale tournaments with bazaar list changes can't be dismissed either. Just the combo itself is devestating enough to win games all the time.

I've been messing around with white splash Dreadstill and this is what I came up with.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
5 [BD] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Testing it's been really solid I'm beginning to like this splash more and more.

Is there really a need for Trickbinds? Uncounterable Dreadnought combo is good (since nobody counters the Nought), but what other situations are they good for?

I'm running a full set of Oblivion Rings in the MD of a white splash. It's a fine answer to almost everything, freeing up lots of SB space.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Is there really a need for Trickbinds? Uncounterable Dreadnought combo is good (since nobody counters the Nought), but what other situations are they good for?

I'm running a full set of Oblivion Rings in the MD of a white splash. It's a fine answer to almost everything, freeing up lots of SB space.

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I have found that you need the trickbinds in the deck, without them you find a lot of hands were you have a nought but no stifle affect. also like I say with every blue card: if you don't need it pitch it to FOW.

@Rodney have you playtested the white splash version with the Enlightened Tutor? also Craig wants his noughts back lol (he wants to sell his stuff).

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Is there really a need for Trickbinds? Uncounterable Dreadnought combo is good (since nobody counters the Nought), but what other situations are they good for?

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Stopping Deed, Explosives, or Belcher activations backed up by counters/REB?

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Originally Posted by Maagler

also Craig wants his noughts back lol (he wants to sell his stuff).

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Holy shit, I think I just died laughing.

Well Rood, it looks like your shelling out some moneys. Those Noughts have won you like 1,000 dollars at least, I think it's fair to shell out like 50 for em'.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Is there really a need for Trickbinds? Uncounterable Dreadnought combo is good (since nobody counters the Nought), but what other situations are they good for?

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You want to know how good Trickbind is? Ask TrialbyFire, he knows what 6 Stifle effects + 3 Wastelands can do to red thresh.

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Originally Posted by Maagler

also Craig wants his noughts back lol (he wants to sell his stuff).

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Roob beat me too it, but this is the funniest news I've heard in while. Go Craig, way to potentially cause Rodney to shed a tear or two.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

You want to know how good Trickbind is? Ask TrialbyFire, he knows what 6 Stifle effects + 3 Wastelands can do to red thresh.

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You had to go and bring that up didn't you Rob :rolleyes: That was an epic game though.
Trickbind is the real deal. I am actually trying to fit one into Thresh as a 5th Stifle. Its that good.

I think it's best to hear from people who play the deck a ton and have tried both the UW and the UG versions?

So I pose the question to you guys...

Answer only if you played both versions, can you say that one splash (UG vs. UW) is definately superior to the other, or is it a toss up?

If one splash is superior, which one and why?