LOL, I remember many claimed that if the opponent cannot deal with an Enchantment until turn3 and one has a creature in hand and GGGGG to spare, he deserves winning anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
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LOL, I remember many claimed that if the opponent cannot deal with an Enchantment until turn3 and one has a creature in hand and GGGGG to spare, he deserves winning anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Well, there is no Goblin Survival. With Survival you can handle the Graveyard, stop the attack, Humility, Extirpate, ect., and 90% of the time if you can keep Survival off the board they end up with a subpar creature deck. With the hypothetical card you just take the 4 weakest cards out of Goblins and it's an alternate win-con that avoids any common hate for Goblins. Instead of having to build a deck around the card you could just take an already good deck stick 4 of that in and make it completely bonkers. So yeah, apples and oranges but I see what he was trying to do there. Cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
BDM's announcement looks a lot like if there were to actually ban Survival. Goodbye buddy, it has been a great time until that stupid Vengevine came along and disrupted all the fun we used to have :-(
/edit: from Facebook:
Federico Fieni: B&R announcement will be on-line on december 20 but this morning with your article on WotC site you give us some hints...eBay is now full of SotF '-.-
BDM: I actually have no inside info on this one. Comment was based on players insisting that something needs to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxDucis
lmao, it sounds like they are hinting at banning it.Quote:
10. The Survival of Legacy
The banned and restricted announcement will go up on December 20 as usual—after Worlds. If any player is going to come up with a strategy to beat the Survival of the Fittest decks that have been dominating the format then the Team Competition may be the last chance that they get to do so before it is defeated through legislation.
Edit: Nvm, just some pro spouting his inane opinion.
I find it funny that all these survival ads on E bay are still at around 50$ a piece when the clear motive is to ditch them for some value while you can. One would think if you sold your survivals for less money then your likely to still make more then when they drop and while also selling quicker.
I could be wrong though, and survival could remain unbanned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Link for the edit?
survival is going to be banned...
as for now, the format is ok (not even sure about that therefore)
but more they print cards, more the card can be broken, and leaving this card restrain the possibilities they have to build cards
i love the card for a lot of time (when the print it) and i'm sad to have to say that...
This is possibly the worst argument to use in any discussion. You can apply this to any argument. Hell, maybe someday WoTC will make an equipment card called "Sneak-a-goat" that cost 1 and 1 to equip that gives the equipped goats controller the ability to draw you 3 cards every time it taps, making god damn Mountain goat a good card or possibly broken card. Everyone would start using sneak-a-goat: the meta would resolve around sneak-a-goat and protecting sneak-a-goat. People would start using cards to supplement sneak-a-goat like Springjack Pasture. Everyone would be packing hate for it like Goatnapper so you could respond to the ability so you draw 3 cards instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomjulioo
IT'D BE CRAZY!
Im holding on to my Springjack Pasture from now it. It could be the next Undiscovered Paradise
We don't have knowledge of the cards that are upcoming; only WotC does.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomjulioo
We don't have the power to dictate B&R choices; WotC does.
We do have the power to raise hell when they make dumb inconsistent decisions regarding both. (Mythics, Mystical Tutor, yearly core sets, etc)
After thinking a bit about it, I think WotC will ban Vengevine, and unban Land Tax.
Or maybe I'm just crazy. :)
Land Tax wont ever get unbanned.
WOTC stated that it is a card, that makes you negate one of basic MTG principles - playing lands.
Its not fun and etc..
*sees Standstill and Counterbalance giggling in the corner*Quote:
Originally Posted by swoop
next to Stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb and Chalice of the Void?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Smokestacks and Trinisphere are hollering with laughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
In all honesty, in the face off Vengevine, the only thing that Wizards will do is ban LED, Vengevine lists run LED.
Apparently not, since your attempt at "application" is pretty terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
But really, try not to get too clever when informing us about the supposed slippery slope we're skidding down. The key to making an illustrative analogy lies in understanding what "analogous" means.
What do you guys see as the next card wizards might unban?
i'm thinking mindtwist. since this card isn't that broken to begin with...
i know i know...dark ritual dark ritual mindtwist argument.
I'd love them to unban Mind Twist. I dunno. Necropotence doesn't seem that scary either. We have way more busted things that cost three mana and don't require you passing the turn.
Never played with Necro, huh? Tendrils would gladly drop their ad Nauseam and Chants to run Necro and Pitch-counter. This would break Legacy ...
having necro is just broken. cannot say the same with mindtwist though. but necro...its gonna get nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
That deck sounds awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Necro does bad, bad things. Think Doomsday but without having to memorize the piles or set things up at all, really.
Considering you lose about one game in fivehundred where you go turn 1 Ritual, Necro and it resolves in a well-built deck, this doesn't seem like such a good idea. Honestly, barring P9 and Yawgmoth's Will there isn't anything more broken than Necro. And yes, that includes Tinker. The only thing making Tinker better even in Vintage is that you don't need triple black for Tinker.
Yeah, 4 Necro Storm sounds awful..... I mean, who pays 7 life for a new hand and passes the turn in order to win?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
No, I can imagine decks where Necropotence is good, I just mean a storm deck with Necropotence sounds awful. ANT doesn't require you to pass the turn. I can imagine it going into a deck like SnT.
I don't think Necro costing triple black is a feature exclusive to Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
Your first sentence is also hyperbolic and obviously wrong.
Necro seems really good, which black doesn't have a ton of at the moment, being honest. I don't think it seems broken because it does cost triple black and it does require you to pass the turn. I'm pretty sure there's a couple dozen cards that are clearly much better, Bargain, Flash, Academy, Skullclamp, etc. being on that list.
Yes, it costing triple black is also the only reason it isn't in every single Vintage deck other than Stax and Dredge (which simply don't plan on casting colored spells).
Necro is not really a black card, despite costing BBB. Ever since it was understood, it's a pure combo-card. It's rather easy: Play as many ways to find it as possible and as many ways as possible to play it turn 1. Whenever it resolves, you win the game. If you want to make black better, Necro isn't the way. It's the perfect way to make any color-combination but UB (and maybe UB splash X) unplayable.
And if you think that statement is hyperbole, you clearly never played with Necropotence in well-built decks (well, maybe it's only 300 games). If you cast Necro turn one and it resolves, you'll only lose those games in which the next ~15 cards of your library don't contain either a way to win, a way to draw more cards or a way to gain more life. I've been playing Magic for 15+ years and I can count the number of games I've lost after resolving turn 1 Necro on my fingers alone. No joke, honest truth.
Not one of the cards you mention is as broken as Necro, Flash included. Skullclamp and Bargain are laughably bad compared to Necro (one filling your deck with crap aka X/1s, the other costing 6). Academy is significantly weaker because it needs more things to go right (enough artifacts, ways to profit from the mana and not fizzling of the typical outlets aka Time Spiral) and Flash comes close but means you need to cram your deck full of dead cards and you have to avoid drawing more than one of those cards.
Also, it can be filed down into a fine powder that serves as an aphrodesiac and cure for cancer.
It's hard to argue with pure hyperbole. How many ways exist in Legacy for you to tutor and cast a turn 1 Necropotence? I guess you can Dark Ritual out an Infernal Tutor with an LED and then drop him, but that's one mana away from being able to do the same thing with Ad Nauseam. The difference being that the Ad Nauseam player could just kill you that turn. I guess you're describing a Tendrils deck, but passing the turn after paying fifteen life seems like a poor strategy to win with in a Tendrils deck, especially one that's ever on the draw.
IBA, You're bored and trolling..Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.
Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.
Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.
i dont get why lackey is on the list when aethervial is clearly a 10x stronger
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I get tired of this. Are people really so intellectually lazy on the Source that anytime you propose something outside of the options they're prepared to consider, they merely accuse you of being insincere?
Suppose I was being insincere; that doesn't prove the point. It wouldn't change anything.
You're untapping next turn with storm back at zero and you want to make one of your seven a Force too? I mean I suppose it's possible, I'm just not seeing what's unstoppable here. There's a lot of crazy turn one plays with a lot of mana acceleration that run into a brick wall against Force. The biggest test of bustedness, I think, is how good they are if it takes you a few turns to assemble your cards. Does letting you run Force mark a drastic uptick over the strength of being able to win the turn you actually resolve your central spell? I don't know. I'd be curious to see. But this list doesn't sound unstoppable to me. It sounds like it has a real and legitimate weakness over current storm combo, and I could be wrong but I don't think the problem with the deck right now is that it has problems winning when Ad Nauseam resolves with plenty of life left to trade.Quote:
Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.
The average cc of non-Ad Nauseam cards in most storm decks seems to be about 1, so I don't see where there's a large difference in cards drawn on averages; it would just reduce your ability to kill yourself trying to maximize cards drawn.Quote:
Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.
Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.
Very Lazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
There isn't any problem with Storm, it will always be one of the best decks if not the best. The problem I see is that these draw engines by and large only fuel combo decks. It would not be unstoppable, but it does offer an alternate combo engine with different design space. Drawing 15 and shooting Soul Spikes while crafting the optimal 7 is perfectly viable line of play. The FoW/Daze is used to stop their advances as well as protecting the Necro. Necro, once cast, assembling a hand of Tendrils with Rituals and Artifacts is the goal and FoW isn't needed to protect the Storm after.
The cost in cards drawn is always 1 per with Necro/bargain. Ad Naus decks have up to 12 0 cost mana producing artifacts and lands are always free draws.
You're the Charlie Sheen of The Source.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
A combo-control deck seems more likely to me. But while it would have greatly improved game versus blue decks over current storm, it'd get beaten up by Zoo on the averages. That seems fine to me, honestly.
Also Ad Nauseam puts a lot of pressure on you to stop drawing at five life or below, and the average cc of every non-Ad Nauseam card is still about 1. There may be games where you get a bunch of artifacts and lands you don't particularly need, but there's also going to be games where you die because you had to find a business spell and you hit all your high cc guys. Ad Nauseam is clearly a really good card but I'm pretty sure it's worse than Bargain.
I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. I'm a little high right now. I'm on this drug, it's called Jack Mother-Fucking Elgin.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.
He's on Jack Mother-Fucking Eglin. Good luck getting through to him. He has Goyf blood in him.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
What was the cardpool like?Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
I didn't know that, that's fairly compelling actually. I don't really pay much attention to MODO though.
I'd also want to know what the format looked like after bannings; if it's still just stupid combo deck, the problem would be restricted enablers, not Necro itself.
Necropotence is obviously a retarded card to unban.... 1 life for 1 card is just absurd.
Mind twist I can totally see being unbanned. It's not like black hand disruption has a stranglehold on the format
That worked in the past... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Ha, touche.
Well I don't seem to be winning that argument. Maybe just Mind Twist. And Worldgorger Dragon. And Goblin Recruiter.
As someone who has played his fair share of Necropotence in EDH and Vintage, I see no single way it can ever come off the B/R list.
It works like this:
1. resolve Necro Turn 1
2. set aside any number of cards from 7-10
3. let your opponent do something less broken, maybe FoW something if he has a Necro himself
4. unleash a shitstorm of disruption on your opponent with the freshly drawn rituals and Duress effects
5. pay another 7 life
6. untap, kill with Tendrils.
I've yet to lose a game where I had the power of Necro. It's one of the most broken cards ever printed with only stuff like Timetwister or Balance being on comparable power level.
Then, on the other hand, maybe they unban Balance at the same time, to help combat Necro decks... but they'd probably play it themselves. :/