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emidln, your suggested sb intrigues me. 4 etw? What decks would you want 3 md ETW against (leaving one in the board right?) Super counter heavy blue decks, that don't have batterskull, like RUG and BUG or something? Do you board out ad nauseam and/or tendrils entirely when on this plan?
Yes, I have resolved past in flames. Yes, the card occasionally wins the game. However, it isn't a guaranteed win every time you cast the card. Sure the card is good. However, when I stare at my graveyard that has piles of artifacts in there the card is quite dead. Whereas when I IGG getting back double black lotus and demonic tutor I smile and proceed to win against anyone not holding countermagic or lacking countermagic in their graveyard that they can cast. I just can't justify running 2 almost identical cards in the wishboard (IGG and PiF) when you could use that extra slot to improve some matchup. As for your proposed sideboard, I agree with the grand majority of it except PiF. Chain of vapor is a card I'm a huge fan of though, so I'm probably biased.
Went 2-2 with Bahamuth's list tonight. The deck was pretty solid, but the losses were to affinity and canadian thresh. Against affinity I won game 1 with ease after I therapied his cranial plating/entire clock away after he stoneforged for it. Game two he gets thalia and thorn of amethyst down (both are singletons I find out later) and I'm holding echoing truth and burning wish, however 4 mana spells are incredibly bad in a deck with 4 lands. He also boarded in a playset of spell pierce, and he pierced a mox, which was incredibly relevant. Game 3 I draw incredibly bad and lose to thalia again. I was mostly sad because I didn't have pulverize in the board to blow him out. Also lost to Ryan Overturf piloting can. thresh. Game 1 I'm on the play, probe him seeing no force of will. Make 10 goblins. Win. Game 2, I try to combo off but he stops my second rite of flame with a spell pierce. I make 4 goblins at one point, he gets 2 threshed mongeese. I lose. Game 3 he flips 2 delvers and I mull to 5 not so strong cards and lose.
The difference between Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens is that Empty the Warrens is both a business spell in your opening hand and a secondary Infernal Tutor target that allows you to go off on turn one for only four mana. Hands that consist of Gitaxian Probe, Infernal Tutor, Land, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Duress are absolutely ridiculous because you can look at their hand, see no counter magic and then immediately go off on them for 12+ Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
As far as what to cut for the 4th Probe, I think you should probably try SBing the Infernal Tutor if you can find the space for it. I find with cutting the 4th Chrome Mox and playing the 3rd or 4th Probe I'm not really boarding in as much disruption as I use to vs Merfolk and RUG. I find the +2 Empty the Warrens is more conservative for SB space than the 4 to 5 extra disruption slots in the common aggro-control match ups and is playable in the BANT match up as well. Honestly I only really want to SB in Xantids vs Merfolk, Sneak&Show and Reanimator, and I think it's better to be able to SB in Empty the Warrens vs Merfolk and RUG since the Sneak&Show match up really isn't that bad if they are playing Misdirection, Overmaster and Defense Grids etc. and I still think the SB slot for Bribery is well worth it just for those particular match ups anyway.
I don't really understand what you guys are doing with the UBR TES lists, what is the point of playing UBR TES if you aren't playing a MD Island and Swamp to protect your manabase? Cabal Therapy is pretty bad compared to Silence, and the only reason Burning Wish feels like the worst card in your deck is because you made it the worst card in your deck by not playing the right disruption suite to protect Diminishing Returns, and you don't have access to an effective Burning Wish target vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator without Ad Nauseam via Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Ad Nauseam and/or Bribery. I mean, you've pretty much castrated yourselves by having to play a shittier disruption card and a shittier win condition for no gains in manabase stability, wtf is the point of doing that exactly? More fetchlands for Brainstorm? All you've really struck upon from what I can tell is that 4 Probes are pretty good and Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils of Agony in the main, the rest seems kind of bad IMO.
I'm not saying this is perfect, but I'd probably test something like
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass (I don't care about the life loss, I just want white mana fwiw)
4 Gemstone Mind
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Death Mark
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
1 (Open)
I'm not a fan of Ill Gotten Gains or Grapeshot anymore, the first seems unnecessary and the second is absolutely fucking horrible at removing Thalia. The SB plan vs Maverick is just to board out all copies of Silence and Duress for 4 Chain of Vapor, 2 ETW and the Infernal Tutor.
I'm playing UBr because I don't want to play Silence. I disagree that Therapy is bad compared to Silence. I don't think the mana of this deck is good enough that I want to play protection I have to play the same turn as I'm winning. Especially with RUG being the most dominant deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You can't be serious about Diminishing Returns. Even without considering my opponents hand, I think Returns is terrible. BW->IT->Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana. I'm not cutting an IT for that. Bribery is such a corner case situation. Decks it's good against aren't even very popular right now, and against them, it's usually more about playing through his counters than about your method of winning the game. This is especially true with Therapy in the deck as it allows you to do EtW and flashback to get rid of his combo.
What the hell is your problem? I come here posting about my TES list my team has been running for a year to help you out, and this is your response? Very nice of you man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
ETW basically vs Force of Will decks. There are some times when I wouldn't ETW, but if you don't need to ETW, it likely means they're a slow and lumbering deck that will just let you duress/ts their 1-2 spells then kill them via AdN or Past in Flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by beebles
ETW is fine vs batterskull decks as long as you aren't playing garbage like Silence. You ETW and then when they play their turn 2 SFM->Batterskull you get to attack them then flashback a therapy. Failing that, you can still Wish->Pulverize.
I don't play Tendrils in my maindeck. My maindeck is very similar to Bahamuth's:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.
Yes, this is the subject I want to bring up, again. Could you please elaborate on your experiences with gold lands vs. duals + basics?Quote:
I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.
Also with the addition of 4 probe + EtW plan do you (and to any other expert storm pilots here) still feel 3-4 chrome mox is the correct number?
Lastly in the 3 color lists with probe feeding threshold is RoF still better than cabal ritual? Ive tested but I just cant tell.
Well my bags are packed and I am heading to the bus in little bit to Washington DC so no more time for tweaking. I really don't like the idea of no Tendils MD, it seems like there will likely be too many times when you go off with ad nauseam and get down too low on life to not win on the spot. Yes I undersand you wish for tendrils but no tendrils md means your Ad Nasueams are going to eat up more life those times when you reveal infernal tutors but no burning wish. Yes I know you can IT for BW but then you need 8 mana to kill them which again is going to be too hard I fear when Ad Naseaming from a relatively low life count.
I am just gonna play the Ari Lax more or less tock list, but I don't like the 2 Ad Nauseam main, gonna go with 1 Ad Nauseam main, 1 Tendrils Main and 1 ETW main.
In my testing and goldfishing I really like the md etw. I am not that proficent with the deck and I love ETW since it seems so much easier to just belch out a bunch of goblins on to the board turn 1, then to craft the perfect turn where you chant them them ad nauseam tendrils kill them.
This sideboard is hideous. Yes, Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils in the main deck. But you shouldn't be forcing Goblin tokens down people's throats all the time. You've taken away one of the great things about this deck and that's options. With siding in Warrens there's no longer Ad Nauseam. You've made removal relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
You took away Xantid to help us with our problematic match-ups (Merfolk, Reanimator, and Sneak Show) but you did add a third Karakas to make up for it. Don't you think that's a bit obsessive? Two is a fine number. This sideboard also lacks a general plan against decks where protection is bad. You can't sideboard out Silences without bringing in dead lands or Empty the Warrens to lose to cards like Deed.
Massacre? Is this really needed? You already have three Karakas. Then Pulverize. This card blows - Seriously. What is the game plan against Trinisphere? Pay three mana, sacrifice two lands and lose the game?
My article should be coming out today or tomorrow that addresses this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
Therapy is a miserable card. Silence's impact on a game will have a much larger effect considering it's a must counter or lose. With therapy your opponents are free to sit back and wait for you miss or take one card and cast another. Silence has more applications and is the better card for Storm combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
As for Returns, we get it, you don't like the card. Diminishing Returns is a fine card, perhaps you're using it wrong. It's not a last ditch effort as people make it seem. Although, I do agree with the sideboard Infernal Tutor not being correct.
Why would I care about good Ad Nauseams when I can beat RUG by boarding 3 EtW every time? They usually only have 2 postboard answers. Ad Nauseam is still very castable with 4 EtW by the way. You can just find some mana and an EtW and cast it for a ton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Sure it's a stronger effect, but you have to cast it in your own turn. I don't think we can conclusively argue which of the cards is better anyway. I prefer Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Why would I ever decide to cast Returns if I can just make a bunch of tokens and win with it? Are you saying you will still cast Returns even if you can win through other BW targets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Believe it or not, Empty the Warrens doesn't always get the job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
It basically always does vs Rug
In one match-up and not even always. Some lists still pack Stifle main deck and Rough/Tumble sideboard. Your's and Emildn's list trade off options for redundancy of a single plan. This is something I don't find desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Just read your article Bryant and liked it. I feel a little uncomfortable cutting down on Chrome moxes since it always seems mana is so super tight and wasteland is such a huge problem as it is. Do you think maybe trimming a ponder instead of a mox for the 3rd probe would work? I feel running 3 probes sort of makes up for missing one ponder. My logic is if you want to go off with ETW, faster ponders are going to slow you down and moxes enable more frequent turn 1 ETW swarms.
Pulverize is the most efficient way of dealing with any number of chalices*, trinispheres, or spheres. More efficient than Shattering Spree, Meltdown, H.Recall. 100%. All the time.*
*obviously lackluster vs chalice @ 6, but let's be realistic. This situation is only a karma punishment resulting from very lucky aggro loam players who want to repay you for Grapeshotting them the last 15 times you played.
I don't need to side out my protection because Therapy and Duress aren't bad when I don't want Karakas/Massacre. Silence is pretty bad, but I wouldn't play that card anyway.
3 Karakas ensures that I actually draw one in the relevant matchups. The Massacre gets sided in along with Karakas, but it's more efficient at killing Thalia or Canonist than Grapeshot, and that extra efficiences often matters vs their clock. Importantly, Karakas is a better answer to Teeg or Thalia than any other spot removal due to being unaffected by Mother of Runes and the hatebears themselves.
The sideboard for the list I posted is actually off by a card (The DCI sadly doesn't allow me 5 ETW) so there's likely a Chain of Vapor in the sb.
I fail to see how Pulverize is better than Spree against Trinisphere. Either way youre paying three mana to blow up artifacts you might as well not lose two lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I guess you don't need to swap since you're playing a different (In my opinion worse) protection spell main deck. The third Karakas and Massacre should be more bounce spells. I still can't believe you're not running Xantids.
SB I was testing out last night with Bryant's manabase (though cutting a fetch or two for City of Brass #3-4 as Final Fortune suggested certainly isn't out of the question), 4 Silence/3 Thoughtseize protection split, and the fourth Probe in place of the fourth Rite of Flame (though the SB Infernal Tutor config Final Fortune suggested that would cleanly allow for a fourth Probe, basically starting game one as a lot of postboard games are, is certainly intriguing):
Core 8:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Silent Departure (could be Grapeshot/Deathmark)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize (could be Duress)
The rest:
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
If I come to the conclusion that 4 Swarm is overkill (it probably is), change the Thoughtseize to Duress, and change the fourth Swarm to a bounce spell or something like Karakas or Slaughter Pact; basically, the fourth Swarm is the free slot. However, if one chooses not to replace Thoughtseize with the superior Duress, there's just an awesome free slot.
SB configs were:
vs. Maverick: -4 Silence, +1 Thoughtseize (if running Duress and 3 Swarm, +1 free slot), +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens
vs. Canadian Threshold: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ponder, and either -1 Gitaxian Probe or -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens
vs. Reanimator/Sneak Attack: -4 Silence, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Ponder/Probe/IT, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +1 Thoughtseize
Toyed with the idea of bringing in the ToA vs. UW decks, by either putting a second one in the board as the French Doomsday list (there's a German list; why not call lejay's the French list?) does or just swapping out an IT; still haven't come to a conclusive board plan for that matchup.
Stop ripping on Silence, ya hear?! It's not bad. What is bad, though, or at least a lot worse, is playing Diminishing Returns without Silence. Y'all with UBr lists could probably just cut Returns, as a lot of its applications would be gone without a Chant.
Less than four Rite of Flame is ridiculous. Don't do it.
You're probably right. I'm still just testing the ins and outs of various configurations, and since, after Chrome Mox, I consider Rite of Flame to be the worst card in the deck, I figured that would be the first one I'd try cutting after the fourth Mox. Running just three Probe and leaving Rite alone could certainly be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
If you really want 4 probes, cut a burning wish. I promise you won't miss it. You won't be able to tell the difference between 3 and 4 wishes anyways, and the deck will still be as consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Don't SB a Rite of Flame, you'll never Burning Wish for it and you want to have as high of a probability as possible to open, draw or cantrip into multiples. I actually think Gitaxian Probe makes Rite of Flame stronger, because the deck is essentially -4x cards between your first and second Rite of Flame. Likewise I think it makes 4xChrome Mox weaker, because the chances of drawing the second Chrome Mox are higher and that's why it's logical to cut a Chrome Mox, which is the worse card in the deck, for a Gitaxian Probe and illogical to cut a Rite of Flame for it.
As far as SBing an Infernal Tutor for the 4th Gitaxian Probe, I'm not certain whether or not it is or it isn't the right decsion, but if you do want to play the 4th Gitaxian Probe then it's either going to come down to Infernal Tutor or Ponder. And 3 Gitaxian Probe is obviously perfectly fine, I think I pretty much agree with where Bryant is taking the deck, altho' I think i prefer more Chant effects in the board to Xantid Swarms because I'm more worried about seeing RUG than Sneak/Show and Reanimator personally.
I completely disagree with cutting Burning Wish.
Some thoughts based on the last couple pages of discussion:
- Cutting Chrome Mox is sweet. Hands with two are auto-mulligans.
- Four Probes is too many. They screw up mulligans.
- I like Ill-Gotten Gains better than Past in Flames, but having no Tendrils maindeck hurts Gains a lot. Then again, I almost never have the opportunity to use Past in Flames. I think it makes more sense in ANT than in TES.
- If I didn't think Silence was important, I'd play ANT. I've tried to make an all fetch/dual/basic manabase work with four colours and you just can't do it. It would be the holy grail of lists to have a four colour storm deck with stable mana. I don't think cutting Silence is the answer.
- I haven't tried Karakas at all. It seems interesting, but I think Ethersworn Canonist is real.
- Having an Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is good only in decks with Cabal Ritual. Those lines need a lot more mana than this deck is designed to generate, especially if you don't have a Tendrils maindeck.
I played T.E.S. at a local tonight, went undefeated. The list was solid.
• As of right now I only own one Karakas so the Ill-Gotten Gains was still in my sideboard. Never used it though.
• I played against blue decks every round.
• Past in Flames was used twice.
• No deck had an answer to 10+ goblins.
• Silence was good.
Hi, I am the man playing ANT for some time, and I apologize if this question is noobish.
I find that currently, TES players tend to run only 1 Ad Nauseam main deck instead of 2, like they always did in the past.
But if so(only 1 AdN main deck),you still run 4 chrome mox??
Because in my ANT list, I run 2 chrome mox, but still find it's awful sometimes that I will draw double mox in my opening hand and need mulligan.
I awalys thought "4 chrome mox" is the good decision only if you are so Ad Nauseam-Dependent and really need 2 Ad Nauseam in you deck.
Am I wrong?
The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.Quote:
Originally Posted by entreri_fans
1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.
This is true. A second ad naus doesnt increase your chances of drawing it significantly in comparison with the chances of flipping the 2nd one off the first. Not worth it IMO unless you play UB ANT. I also question the need for more than 2 mox though. Obviously bryant is the expert with this deck though.Quote:
The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.
1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.
Recently ive taken pages from both TES and ANT for a 3 colored list with no maindeck PiF/IGG but 1 each of EtW and tendrils main and im loving it. You guys here are really onto something with EtW main and alongside tendrils main the deck can grind while still being explosive as hell. I think probe + EtW has largely made alternate engines obsolete, at least for the time being. Still worthwhile to have 1, maybe 2 in the board for corner cases though.
Eh I got crushed at the open. I went 3-1 the night before at a mini tourney (my first tournamennt ever with the deck) which gave me a false sense of security. I actually beat countertop which had me feeling like a boss, only losing to Maverick when I panicked mid combo when I duressed him and saw a Stoneforge mystic which made me realize 12 goblins probably woudn't even kill him so I just diminished returned for garbage and died. Whoops.
In the open I played against RUG made 14 goblins on turn 3 and still lost because he had two flipped delvers and a hand full of burn uggh. Game 2 he had stifle, Rough/tumble 2 forces and a spell pierce in his hand when I duressed him. Yippee. Despite all that I still went off after I hit him with 2 more discard spells and then died when my ad nauseam failed to yield me any Silences so I couldn't play around stifle and then died.
The next round I lost two the most horrifying deck ever--a veteran explorer bug deck which had both therapies and Force of Wills. Uggh. I think I had 2 cards in my hand on turn 2. Horay for getting therapied over and over and over gain. Next game I went for 10 goblins on the play and got my burning wish forced. Ugghhh.
I then beat the crap out of a goblin player to rebuilt my shattered self esteem. Oh well I will keep at it and get better. I think the deck really is strong if you don't run into a buzzsaw of hate like I did.
I did really like the Ill gotten gains and beat the goblin players by boarding it into the main a plan which really seemed strong. I cut past in flames after the 4 round tourney because I can't figure out why you would ever want it. I boarded out 1 mox almost every round but I think any more than than that you might have trouble going off when you ad nauseam. You need moxes and petals to cast those rituals man. This was my final list.
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Silence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils
4 Gemstone
2 City
4 Fetch
2 Sea
1 Volcanic
SB
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Grapeshot
1 Karakas
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ill gotten gains
2 Inqisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diminishing Returns
Anybody have any thoughts on whether or not it's worth cutting the 4th Ponder for the 4th Gitaxian Probe at all? I've had pretty mixed results myself, as Ponder makes so many hands more keepable than Gitaxian Probe does.
As far as the SB, I don't think you really need Ill Gotten Gains, Past in Flames or Grape Shot, I've been winning almost all of my games with either Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns reliably, altho' I think Sneak/Shows move to cards like Overmaster and Defense Grid instead of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm plays a really huge roll in the matter.
I'm pretty sure Grape Shot is just kind of a wasted slot in the SB, it was ok when Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist were the hate bears of choice, but now with Thalia it feels pretty much impossible to Burning Wish for 3, play a card for Storm (minimum of 1) and Grape Shot for 3.
Another SB slot I don't think really makes any sense is Death Mark, every creature we need to kill with Death Mark we can kill with Chain Lightning as well, and the 3 damage may actually come in handy. I've been thinking a lot about whether or not it'd be better to SB multiple Chain Lightning the same way some people SB multiple Death Marks, just because it's a more functional card that can contribute to killing your opponent while not being dead vs aggro when they don't draw their hate bears. I guess Death Mark isn't technically dead either when they don't draw their hate bears, but it's better to be able to throw 3 damage to the opponent's head as an additional option than just killing a creature. I also think Chain Lightning being red could be pretty significant, just because if we cast Burning Wish then we know we already have access to that color.
My SB is something like,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Chain Lightning
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
and I feel like I have a ton of space to mess around with extras.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I've only used Grapeshot once in the 6+ months I've been playing T.E.S. (EtW would have been enough anyway). I'm going to test a Chant or something to deal with blue in that slot...
Played in a local a few days ago, and scrubbed out hard. Got one win against GBW goodstuff, but that matchup is easy. Lost to lands packing thalia postboard along with thorn of amethyst and of course raw drawing triple waste without any loam to speak of. The match was incredibly close, however he landed the thalia after I tutored for ad nauseam and I had exactly 5 mana in play. Drew a land off the top, he beat me down to 10 though with factory and thalia. I EoT'ed ad nauseamed, not finding a chain of vapor or e. truth but I did find burning wish. However, my only out to thalia in my wishboard was a grapeshot. 6 mana to answer thalia was too much and I was at 1 life so I died to factory. Game 1 I regretted my decision to not play past in flames in my board, as he was at virtually 30 life due to zuran orb + 5 lands in play and I couldn't generate enough storm to win and ad nauseam wasn't an option as he locked me out a long time ago and I didn't draw an IMS for quite awhile, allowing him to beat with creeping tar pit for a lot. Also drew the 1 of ad nauseam when I was locked out, and proceeded to draw lots of LED's to go with the infernal tutor in my hand. Also lost to canadian thresh, game 1 I had 8 storm after resolving burning wish however my opponent was at 19. I went for d. returns since I was at 9 life and he had a flipped delver so any topdecked bolt wins the race for him. D. returns floating UBR failed and he managed to draw force, pierce, blue card which was enough to stop me.
Deathmark kills Iona. Chain lightning does not. Also, the copy ability of chain lightning can be relevant sometimes. As for burning people out with the card, we have a card for that. It's called grapeshot.
I wouldnt consider cutting ponders for anything really. One less chrome mox otoh would rarely make any impact, at least not one thats measurable and mox in multiples usually sucks.
For alternatives to deathmark ive been pretty happy with silent departure. It hits hatebears and iona since my opponents almost always name black and iona in hand is better than in grave.
I agree chain lightning is worse than grapeshot since shot doubles as an alternate wincon and removal, not that I use grapeshot either. Personally ive just gone with 4 dread of night and havent looked back since. I tried all the flashy broad application cards but I prefer these especially since 2 is game.
Didn't I grapeshot you in St.Louis? Ok.. So its because I punted. But i still cast Grapeshot twice that day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
TES wouldn't be viable without Grapeshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalhead
Karakas > Both Deathmark and Silent Depature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
Grapeshot > All.
How often can you actually removal a Thalia with a Grape Shot, and how often are you using Grape Shot for anything other than show boating?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I don't know if you can say Karakas is necessarily better than removal, it may be right now, but I'd be extremely concerned that you're going to see Ethersworn Cannonist reapear in the near future with all of our overly specific Thalia hate.
I've killed Thalia plenty of times with Grapeshot. Postboard there's also Karakas, Inquisitions, and Echoing Truths to deal with Thalia/Teeg/Cannonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Metagame at my store is RUG/UG/UR Delver decks, fatties (Sneak Show, sometimes Hypergenesis/Omniscience/Reanimator), MUD, Merfolk, and Burn. No Maverick.
I'm going to try out the Empty the Warrens, 3 Chrome Mox maindeck with the following sideboard tonight:
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
Metagame consists of a bunch of Delver decks and you are going to cut Past in Flames? Oh noes!Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
I wouldn't say it's a bunch of them. Either way, I realized recently that I just never cast the card.
EDIT: Went 2-1 and made my money back. I ended up playing a fourteenth land. Lost to Reanimator, beat UB Stiflenought and Affinity. The fourteenth land was good versus multiple Wastelands. Two Gitaxian Probes seemed like plenty, but I may have just been drawing them a lot. Maindeck Empty was irrelevant. Sideboard in/out numbers were a bit awkward.
@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidiln:
Finally I went with no therapys, I forgot this is TES, I mean, you can have thereapy and you can simply do not know what the player has in hand and be simply a dead card, that possibility makes it not playable in base, because, you need information to be plenty of effective. chant or silence or duress or t.seize simply need to be countered.
regarding the changes to the initial list from Bryant .Post:
+1 Gitaxian = -1 C.Mox
Tendrils > E.Warrens.
Questions:
Have you tested 12 lands?
I would need to keep 4 moxen, so -1 land +1 moxen could be ok?
I've been trying 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no tendrils no Empty main 1 A.N., and seems the correct numbers.
Have you tested Karakas in side? does it really worth it?
No win-condition main is awful. The deck literally loses to counterspell on Burning Wish, Surgical Extraction. Which is in the post popular deck in the format - RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold. Not to mention half of the beauty of Probes is to increase the power of Empty the Warrens which you're no longer even doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I still only have the one Karakas but I did do testing with a proxied second against Maverick, it was great. I've yet to do Sneak Show/Reanimator.