[Deck] Dredge

Both Flayer need about the same amount of cards to be set up(Zealot needs more Bridges, Flayer more DRs) and Zealot can be blocked/ there can be Moat or Elephant Grass-ish things.
Also Flayer kills Ooze like a boss.
Your maindeck will be a bit less stable when you run Flayer though, due to the extra DR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by esqulax

I am a pretty big noob at dredge so pardon me if this question seems rather stupid, but could somebody please explain to me the benefits of running flayer over flamekin zealot? I really have trouble understanding it.

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I guess you win without an attack step so you don't have to worry about moat or elephant grass or whatever.
Edit: Yeah above explains it better than I did

Yeah I can see some benefits, but isn't it rather easy to distrupt with a single Swords to Plowshares? I mean if they plow your Zealot you still have a bunch of hasty 3/3 zombies.

and do you run 3 Dread Returns with flayer?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by esqulax

Yeah I can see some benefits, but isn't it rather easy to distrupt with a single Swords to Plowshares? I mean if they plow your Zealot you still have a bunch of hasty 3/3 zombies.

and do you run 3 Dread Returns with flayer?

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It's crucial to run 3 DR with Flayer, yes.
If Flayer gets STP'd it still deal dmg afaik, also you get Zombies with him too, just without the haste.

I guess he means something like: You have a Flayer, and announce the DR targetting your GGT. In response, your opponents Swords/Pathes the Flayer. No damage from the GGT.

You need 3 DRs with Flayer. You get a trickier mainboard by not losing to stupid permanents and you can win on the spot in some situations where FKZ can't. This gives you also a different attack-angle with the deck, cuz you play DRs [which some lists doesn't do anymore]. The downside is that you really need to run 3 DR which makes the deck a bit more inconstant.

The choice is yours. :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

I guess he means something like: You have a Flayer, and announce the DR targetting your GGT. In response, your opponents Swords/Pathes the Flayer. No damage from the GGT.

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Exactly, this just seems like a pretty big downside compared to Flamekin Zealot.

But then again, I have never played the deck at a tournament, only casually.

So what happened with the dredge players at SCG prov? There were supposedly quite a few playing the deck, including a group of people I knew running a brew of +hapless +fetches + bloodghasts -ichorids -thugs which sounded terrible in theory.

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Originally Posted by say no to scurvy

So what happened with the dredge players at SCG prov? There were supposedly quite a few playing the deck, including a group of people I knew running a brew of +hapless +fetches + bloodghasts -ichorids -thugs which sounded terrible in theory.

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Hapless, Fetches and Ghast, no Thugs? I hope they all went 0-X and learned how to build a Dredge deck now. Not trying to offend anyone, but seriously...

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

So about the DR targets, does anyone still use Iona? I bought the Flayer, but I'm facing Sneak Show so much and Emrakul makes me crazy! I play Iona+2 DR and the 4th thug.

I'm still thinking about Gisela too, since I can take 7 damage from Emrakul and cause 18 with three Ichorids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

Hapless, Fetches and Ghast, no Thugs? I hope they all went 0-X and learned how to build a Dredge deck now. Not trying to offend anyone, but seriously...

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

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Sometimes I miss the "like" button in this forum. Totally agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calado

So about the DR targets, does anyone still use Iona? I play Iona+2 DR and the 4th thug.

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I like Iona as an emergency button against certain decks, as well as a mean to ensure victory without fearing an opponent's lucky topdeck: she comes in handy against Spiral Tide, U/R Delver, the mirror and to a lesser extent Nic Fit (build-related consideration), while providing a non-Bridge reliant finisher. I play your same exact setup (Iona + 2x Dread Return) in my non-LED build, except I play 3x Golgari Thug + 1 Darkblast. I think the broad applications the creature offers outweigh the loss of consistency given by its sole presence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by esqulax

Exactly, this just seems like a pretty big downside compared to Flamekin Zealot.

But then again, I have never played the deck at a tournament, only casually.

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the chance of a swords to plowshares on your flayer is relatively small since you will at least have some cabal therapies in your graveyard and can easily eliminate them before you DR him, which is what you should always do before casting your game winning spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

I like Iona as an emergency button against certain decks, as well as a mean to ensure victory without fearing an opponent's lucky topdeck: she comes in handy against Spiral Tide, U/R Delver, the mirror and to a lesser extent Nic Fit (build-related consideration), while providing a non-Bridge reliant finisher. I play your same exact setup (Iona + 2x Dread Return) in my non-LED build, except I play 3x Golgari Thug + 1 Darkblast. I think the broad applications the creature offers outweigh the loss of consistency given by its sole presence.

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I also think Iona has wider range than other DR targets in this deck, with close second being Angel of Despair, and then Elesh Norn. Since I'm probably the only person in the world who has lack of space for targets in maindeck, and tend to use them in SB only, these are the 3 I like the most. Currently I only use Iona as target, and from SB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

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I got 75th place at Providence! I used the old LEDless list with lootings instead of tribes.
Okay, okay! I'll do a tournament report, geez. Calm down, guys.

Round 1-Storm

I was paired against this dude Adam who goes to the same weekly Legacy tourneys as me at DieHardGames. He was chill. Tendrils killed me game 1. Grave-trolls killed him game 2. Game 3 on the second turn I dredge into lethal for the next turn and hit his hand with a couple therapies. He brainstorms into a tutor and gets his rituals working, almost kills himself with Ad Nauseum, but gets the storm count high enough take the cake.

0-0-1

Round 2-Affinity

I messed up my decklist because I got to registration late so I had a game loss for this match. game 2 I crush him quick. Game 3 he opens with tormod's crypt and an explosive master of etherium. I have a grudge but waste it on a lethal cranial plating, losing the game on the next turn.

0-0-2

Round 3-BG Pox/Loam

Game 1 he drops a tabernacle but I have enough Ichorids to kill him quickly. Game 2 I start off putting two of my Leylines of the Void onto the board. I reanimate a grave troll and therapy him naming Innocent Blood hitting two of them. The other cards in his hand? Two entombs! He is toast in a couple of turns.

1-0-2

Round 4-RUG Delver

This dude was sitting next to me for the last game and audibly moans when he sees that we are paired up. he tells me he doesn't have any grave hate and thought that Maverick was going to hate dredge out for him. He thought wrong. Games 1 and 2 went by quick.

2-0-2

Round 5-Maverick

I guess this matchup was karmic justice. I was pretty lucky though. He was able to make a board pretty quickly as maverick usually does, but couldn't find anything that interacted with the graveyard. I spent a couple turns returning and sacing ichorids and made about 20 zombies that eventually get lethal past his mom's, knights, and pridemages. Game 2 I am very fearful but decide to just trust my deck and the only change is to board in Elesh Norn for a darkblast. he has a slow start but ends up e-tutoring for a crypt and wipes out a 'yard that i just breakthrough'd into. Luckily, I had six Zombies on the board already and I eventually get the dredge into the Elesh, sealing the deal.

3-0-2

Round 6- UR Burn

I got game 1 with little trouble. Game 2 his thunderous wrath's and flipped delvers coupled with a surgical extraction on my first dredger spelled out my doom. Game 3 he didn't draw into hate and I won the race.

4-0-2

Round 7-Goblins

So apparently this guy is very good at playing this deck since I heard people talking about his list. Anyway, he puts up a pretty good fight in Game 1, exiling my bridges with proficiency. However, its not enough and I get there with ichorids. Game 2 he opens with lackey and I don't have an answer. He lackeys in a Sharpshooter and then gets out a prospector and locks me out with his pinger. Game 3 I was extremely lucky. We both mulligained to 6 and I opened with City---> Imp. He wastelands my city. On my next upkeep I discard grave troll and dredge into 2 narcomoebas. He removes a Matron for his Pyrokinesis and kills all 3 of my guys. In response, i discard 2 Bridges and he just scooped right there.

5-0-2

Round 8-UR Delver

I believe I get the first game in a predictable manner. Game 2 we race and he wins. Game 3 his opening hand has 2 Surgical Extractions and a snapcaster. GG.

5-0-3

Round 9-Sneak Attack/Show and Tell

It has been a long day and my last match kind of put me on a tilt. Game 1 I see a scalding tarn and a divining top and place him on Delver for some reason. I'm taking my time slow-dredging and then he sneaks in a Griselbrand and draws into his Kill.
Game 2 I make army quickly before he drops a Grafdigger's Cage. I kill him with what I've got. Game 3 he opens with the cage and I'm stuck waiting on a breakthrough to take advantage when i bounce the Cage with Chain of Vapor. It doesn't come however, and he drops a Shows and Tells a Griselbrand and I match him with the mightiest one of my golgari thugs. As a last ditch effort I try to bounce his Griselbrand when he draws himself to 4 life, hoping to take the match in Thug beats but his spellpierce sadly ended my magic playing for the day.

5-0-4


Observations:
*I missed having the Tribes in every single match. Maybe its just my playstyle, but I feel lost without the recurring discard outlet that doubles as an impenetrable blocker.
*My sideboard was not where i wanted it to be. i was using a lot of anti-hate cards like chain and grudge, but I'm used to just playing through hate and don't bother siding for it. Without the tribes I kind of fumbled with managing my graveyard effectively.
*Leyline of the Void and Elesh Norn are sick though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZebraSleeves

5-0-4

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This notation actually states: "5 wins, 0 loses, 4 draws", but I believe it should be "5 wins, 4 loses, 0 draws", right? :tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gui

This notation actually states: "5 wins, 0 loses, 4 draws", but I believe it should be "5 wins, 4 loses, 0 draws", right? :tongue:

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Yes that is what I meant to write. I guess in my head I was thinking, "a win is the best so it goes first, then a draw is not as good as a win but not as bad as a loss so I'll put it in the middle, and a loss will be the number on the opposite side of the number of wins". Thanks for clearing that up, though. I will learn from my mistake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZebraSleeves

Yes that is what I meant to write. I guess in my head I was thinking, "a win is the best so it goes first, then a draw is not as good as a win but not as bad as a loss so I'll put it in the middle, and a loss will be the number on the opposite side of the number of wins". Thanks for clearing that up, though. I will learn from my mistake.

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Yeah, not a big deal, sory for bothering you with that...

Anyways, I will use LEDless list too, I've been doing some testing (although less than I'd like to), and I believe we should go with at least 2 Tireless Tribes. I've cut 2 Breakthoughts and 2 Tireless instead of removing all the perma discard. I also believe one of the strengths of LEDless is facing hate, so my config try to abuse the perma discards by using some Grudges from sb for a eventual fight against tormods/relics @ g3. I'll see if this can get me somewhere.

I've cut one breakthrough and one Ichorid instead of two breakthroughs.

@Zebra:

Nice tournament and nice report, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.


What list did you run exactly? in my own list I've cut down Dread Return to 1 copy in the main deck, so I have room for 15 Lands as well as the full set of Breakthrouhs and a 3/3 split of Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribes. 3 Ichorids is more than enough imho and with more permanent discard outlets I think one can cut the 12th Dredger as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chibi

Thanks for the quick feedback!

About the 4th therapy maindeck, I think with this build's explosiveness, I can win fast enough without having to use therapy much. As for the 3rd ichorid, well same reason for not having the 4th therapy maindeck. I board the extra therapy and ichorids in matchups where I think I should win via beatdown than combo (with the chance of having to combo of course).

As for the sideboard, I've been thinking about firestorm too. I think it's good against maverick and delver. I'll test it out. For now, I have just been reading about its effectiveness in LED dredge sideboards.

This.

Faerie macabre is for reanimator and mirror match not to mention decks that run snapcaster mage. This was supposed to be Leyline of the Void but after some time I realized that I don't want it in my sideboard anymore. It's already a dead card if don't have it in my opening hand. Having to mulligan for it is not worth it. I'd rather mulligan for a keepable hand that could win.

And as for my previous post, I'll edit it. Thanks for the heads up! :)

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I can agree with your logic on ichorid, but you are looking at therapy the wrong way. It does EVERYTHING! Its a win con, an enabler, and disruption. This card is the best card in the deck if used properly and should be an auto 4 of. Usually, if you can land 2 therapies you almost can't lose.

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Originally Posted by dredgekid

I can agree with your logic on ichorid, but you are looking at therapy the wrong way. It does EVERYTHING! Its a win con, an enabler, and disruption. This card is the best card in the deck if used properly and should be an auto 4 of. Usually, if you can land 2 therapies you almost can't lose.

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I think that too, especially in LEDless where I get slow games often.
I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

@Zebra:

Nice tournament and nice report, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.


What list did you run exactly? in my own list I've cut down Dread Return to 1 copy in the main deck, so I have room for 15 Lands as well as the full set of Breakthrouhs and a 3/3 split of Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribes. 3 Ichorids is more than enough imho and with more permanent discard outlets I think one can cut the 12th Dredger as well.

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Actually, Faithless Looting is more important than Breakthrough, but other than that, I could see myself playing your list as well. I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gui

I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.

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I also consider the 12th Dredger to be a flex slot, but it's the last flex slot that I would ever use. In fact, I don't remember having used it at all! :tongue:

Now that I think about it, if I can find a way to include the 13th Dredger, I would. :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.

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I find it strange that I'm not missing the Tireless Tribes at all, especially given that my preferred LEDless configuration and play style is purposefully geared towards grinding games out (of course, the less grinding, the better).

I'll have to get reacquainted with my Tireless Tribes to revisit the testing that I did when Faithless Looting first came into the scene. I'm thinking that Tireless Tribe would at least be worth considering for some sideboard slots.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calado

I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!

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Hitting a blind Therapy has increasingly become my favorite play for this deck! :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

I don't think it is any better then Flamekin Zealot, if not worse, considering that FKZ also gives al your zombies +1/+1 which usually results in a lethal blow.

@Izor

I believe I used the following list at the tourney:

4 Golgari thug
4 Stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
3 ichorid

4 Bridges
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Therapy
4 faithless looting
2 dread return
1 darkblast

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadels

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn
1 Angel of Depair
3 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

Changes I would make to the maindeck for next time would be -4 Lootings, +4 Tireless Tribes. In the Sideboard I would probably do -2 Chain of Vapor, -2 Ancient Grudge, +4 Street Wraith. This probably seem like an unusual choice, but let me list the reasons I want to have access to the Wraiths:

-They can come in on the draw to make the DDD plan more viable, if need be.
-The instant speed allows for more flexibility in managing your graveyard. Additionally it allows you to save dredger from being extracted or (to a lesser extent) oozed.
-Good as Breakthrough replacements in Grindy games because that don't cause you to over-commit but still offer you some acceleration and they can be pitched to Ichorid.

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

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- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gui

Yeah, not a big deal, sory for bothering you with that...

Anyways, I will use LEDless list too, I've been doing some testing (although less than I'd like to), and I believe we should go with at least 2 Tireless Tribes. I've cut 2 Breakthoughts and 2 Tireless instead of removing all the perma discard. I also believe one of the strengths of LEDless is facing hate, so my config try to abuse the perma discards by using some Grudges from sb for a eventual fight against tormods/relics @ g3. I'll see if this can get me somewhere.

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I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

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Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gui

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

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Against Crypt/Relic you have to coax them to break it. Having a consistent discard outlet allows you to force them to pop it eventually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Que

- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

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Thx, i will test it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

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I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012.
What happened to the economy?!
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gui

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

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I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joemauer

I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012. *
What happened to the economy?! *
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?

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You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...pt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...pt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

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It's not that Ancient Grudge is bad against Tormod's Crypt, it's that Ancient Grudge is only good against Tormod's Crypt and spending MD slots in order to address a hate card they may or may not draw isn't as good as spending MD slots in order to play around hate when they do draw it or advance your game plan when they don't draw it.

I feel like Tireless Tribe, and to a certain extent Chain of Vapor, are the kind of cards Dredge wants because they address the hate cards you need them to respectively while not being dead cards otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

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We must have different definitions of 'good against'.

Me: A card is good against another card if it can destroy opposing card with ease.

You: A card is good against another card if it can force your opponent to sacrifice opposing card and wipe out your graveyard(which is dredge's lifeline).

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

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I usually use Grudge before I build up my graveyard. Most players will drop crypt into play as soon as they have it in hand, even mutliples. So blowing up crypt prior is a common occurence.

Being able to dredge into grudge forces the opponent to blow up your yard at that moment and not when you get something saucy in there like DR, ichorid, or bridge.

With all that being said you are 100% right as to why grudge is so awesome. There is a reason it stayed in people's sideboard(as a two or three of) even when crypt/relic got replaced with surgical extraction.

Grudge has some utility against Crypt. But because a Faithless Looting counters Crypt as easily as a Grudge, I'd rather just max out on the draw spells. That way they don't Crypt you and you topdeck Ancient Grudge instead of a discard outlet or a dredger or a draw spell.