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Huh, DR.S actually sounds like a really good idea.
*He makes wasteland less effective against us.
*He makes all 3 mana cards better (S&T, Map, Trinket)
*He makes getting to double green easier for everyones favorite Titan.
*He can also be a relevant tool against most forms of combo.
I think Tim is on to something here.
What about Mox Diamond? It does many of those same things, but without getting Lightning Bolted.
True point. However, I'm not sure dying to Bolt is a drawback here. Every turn your opponent is playing reactive against you the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I bet Jeremiah has tested Mox in the past and dismissed it, but maybe it needs to be tested again? Could you elaborate on this Jer?
Currently, what list would you recommend for this meta?
RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Jund, Shardless BUG and a few combo decks.
Very hard to find the sweet spot :(
I tested the crap out of diamond, and not only was it bad, it is one of the worst metas for it now. DRS I never considered though as I enjoy my basic islands so much, but drs can offset the punch of waste. Initial testing showed drs to be impressive, so I'll take it to my two events this weekend. Good concept and pointer Tim
I found that DRS is better than oracle in the RUG matchup, but worse than oracle in the bug/esper/deathblade matchups. I would only suggest it in a rug saturated meta.
I am in the process of testing BOTH Oracle and DRS MD, with vensers taking a sideline. I am not sure how confident I am about 0 MD Omni answers, but being back to 13 cards SB for omni speaks well to my odds, especially keeping in repeal and adding venser for possible defense grids. more testing is required, but I am picking up the deathrites for this weekend should my results prove fruitful.
I am looking for a 1-2 slot MD that crushes Omni though. Preferably Ugin-able or cheap. Debating Trinisphere. Feel free to give ideas.
Won 550$ in prize this week. I'll post a list and brief write up later, but the take home message is that deathrite is absurdly amazing. My only losses the two days were related to not running 4 or misplaying my deathrites. I will definitely be playing 4 until it gets banned.
You could use Spine of Ish Sah. Kills anything that S'N'T can throw at you. Bit more expensive than 3Ball, but hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Agreed. Definitely some growing pains for me, but overall very positive across the board. Since it takes some pressure off the board slots for anti storm, I want to find more permanent-based hate for omni and sneak and show, but I'm struggling with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Played in a small tournament this weekend. A few observations:
1. This deck beats most midrange, late game decks. Played against counterbalance and stoneblade, 2-0'd both of them.
2. Maindeck karakas is pretty tech against Geist, and the occasional Sower.
3. Not a fan of Glacial Chasm, generally when I tutor it up, it's when I'm on my back foot. Losing two land via crop rotation when you're behind is ridiculously hard to recover from, and Glacial generally only buys two turns.
4. Lost 0-2 against RUG, no idea how to beat RUG with turn 2 flipped Delver, and then multiple delvers with stifle/waste backup.
I'm wondering how you guys deal with decks with quick clock. I find that letting them go wild for the first few turns means by turn 4, it's almost not recoverable.
1.) Tundra decks are virtual byes, their slow start + your inevitability shift the match up far into your favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphacat
2.) Your Karakas cannot target their Geist, illegal. It's relevant in sneak and show match up though.
3.) In my experience - glacial chasm needs to be launched not when you're back pedaling, but the turn before you're back pedaling. This has been difficult for me but the idea is always survive long enough till the big turn, and if your line needs more turns that you're certain remain on their clock, chasm. I want to cut this thing all the time too, but it must stay.
4.) Rock lee has historically had much better success in this match, and he can comment better on his lines. In the last handful of entries abrupt decay, oracle, and DRS have been brought in to combat this, all help. I personally lean on playing the aggressor, pushing S&T/O-Stone, and running cavern of souls has been huge to land an oracle/titan. But it's really just dancing the rug dance, not playing into stifle, and careful crop rotations.
Agreed. Nice winnings man, where'd you go this weekend? Lets talk DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
First, I ran this this weekend:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell
2 Expedition Map
2 Oblivion Stone
SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Iona
3 Pithing Needle
I'm reasonably practiced with the archetype, and this felt very strong. Adding deathrite to help the RUG, UWr Geist. Adjusting [slap job adjustment] of the landbase/list to accommodate. Turned the SB into straight anti Storm/Omni/Sneak.
Across the weekend:
Counterbalance: 2-0, T1 map > cavern > oracle. Easy.
RUG: 2-0 Deathrite earns FoW(!), better spells resolve.
RUG: 2-1 Lost to some very good play. But each deathrite felt like double time walk, oracle is very good.
ANT: 2-0 [!] Deathrite slowed down the early combo I guess, and I got to 44 life quick. Sb is good. Im actually ~20-0 against storm with this deck.
JUND:2-1 Rock Lee was correct in that oracle is boss when playing off the top after hymn.
-
Merfolk: 1-2 Still don't know the line here. The island walk and standstills are a lot to work around/through. DRS did help. This needs attention this deck will be back soon.
Elves: 2-1 Still love O-Stone. I side in fluster against elves always, its good. S&T Iona to win.
Burn: 2-0 DRS! [.../chasm/Iona]
Omni: 2-1 Mull to Iona, Show and Tell first - anyone have a better plan?
-
Test against UWR Delver: 5-3. Personally great news for me - my % against this has always been horrible. Multiple stifles is very tough. DRS and Oracle do SO much work in this match. DRS is a must destroy for that deck as is and buys SO much time - my crutch here is again the CAVERN. Its often turn five and they've got some presence and I have a dead deathrite and a few countered tops, and boom, oracle/titan. I might start mulling to DRS in this idk though.
Some notes:
DRS was great! It looks awkward on paper, and the lines seem like detours while playing, but the attention it draws, flexibility it offers, the defense/resilience while inching along the game plan 1 mana at at time. I giggled when I turn 2 show and telled. It's great.
Rock lee commented on 0 candelabra, well justified. Meta and DRS seemed appropriate. I missed the explosiveness, but wasn't starving for it. 4 S&T helped pick up the slack.
SB was aimed at expected Omni and Sneak. I actually really like Iona, especially with 4 show & tell. Worked even against elves and burn - on turn 2 [giggle].
Kozilek - I never want it! Lately.
Cavern - I love this thing. I won't shut up about it. I might play 2. Gives me a great cop out in matchups I don't have enough skill to play through lol. Seriously though, so many tempo players weathering the storm and sitting on FoW thinking their set get a rude awakening. Bonus: Ive named random creature types when I wasn't fully revealed G1 before, lol.
Manabase - wasn't awful, but needs help, anyone suggest?
Merfolk - help.
O-stone - anyone have a better idea? Seems awkward with more permanents but man I always like a sweeper.
-
While currently this flavor of eldrazi seemed very good to me, it feels like it needs a lot of tweaking beyond the dirty test I ran it through. I'm super curious to see how Rock Lee's take on it was this weekend.
I plan on running this at SCG Baltimore if I can get it tuned well enough!
I went to Mythic Games Monthly event, and then Xanadu's Foil Jace event. 3/4 at Mythic, 2nd at Xanadu.
at MYthic I ran this list:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ZEN] Island (7)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [ME] Force of Will
Misplayed my 3/4 match with deathrite, and always wanted more deathrites. The card was insane all day.
At Xanadu I played a slightly different sideboard, same main:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ZEN] Island (7)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 2 [ROE] All is Dust
Every single time I drew All is Dust I regretted it, and many times wished it was just Deathrite.
I've been testing many variants of DRS, but this is the list I've been having the best success with since the events:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ZEN] Island (7)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [MM] Forest (2)
1 [R] Underground Sea
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [ME] Force of Will
I can't seem to use Venser efficiently. Most times I draw it I hate it, and the 2% of time time I have it its game winning. How do you use him well enough to justify up to 3 MD slots?
I see / hear this complaint all the time from nascent 12post pilots. Just remember that you're playing a control deck first, and a ramp deck second. Most seem to reverse those concepts in their heads, and if you do so, then Venser is awful. If you focus on playing the deck as a control deck, Venser will start to really shine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
Yes. It's true that I try to push it when piloting this. But as a control piece I find oblivion stone to be what I need most often. Venser Karakas double blue is the dream, but much more difficult than three colorless o stone. He seems narrow.. What situations does venser help you out in ways no other piece can? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Thragtusk may or may not make a showing at Baltimore.
@Rock Lee
What matchups do the DRS come in? :) Really innovative list lol We will also test the crap out of this after our next Major this Sunday
DRS have since made the Maindeck. Still testing, but the card is simply too insane to not include.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
I would very much appreciate seeing your new decklist with DRS in the main. Also some thoughts on replacing Candelabra. Does DRS make up for the explosiveness of the Candelabra version? I also read about you often siding them out against Control, Midrange and Combo, only wanting them to stay against Aggro. Since DRS is pretty good against Aggro and Control, do you see yourself replacing the Candelabras?
Just wondering because I played this deck in some Bazaar of Moxen sideevents and Candelabra always stood out to me as a great tool. But the same can often be said about DRS. Anways, looking forward to your new decklist once the dust has settled.
I honestly hate Candelabra in this deck. More than half the time I have it it's either irrelevant or a straight dead card. I think it requires to much around it to be good. The way I see it, if we have 4+ lands out, we should be doing fine. There are times where it's a Sol Ring early game, but I prefer Expedition Map 10 times out of 10. Could be variance since I've always had just one in my build, but I just never seem to draw it at the right time. I feel the same with Venser and I gave him the axe a while ago. This is the current maindeck I've been trying since Tims discovery.
//LANDS¤27
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
//CREATURES¤ 13
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//SPELLS¤20
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
Trinket Mage is pretty boss and he's been making me happy to have the Candel around. I would also definitely have a needle in the board and probably an Engineered Explosives. I feel like I may need to go down to 26 lands but I'm not sure yet. I also don't think playing U. Sea is worth it here, if you sat there for ten turns pinging them and couldn't another wincon idk what to say haha.
Will add more later.... sleep time
With DRS main maybe you could try to squeeze the bog in main.
It ll give B to DRS and it s good to have a good answer to grave deck or pif main
Here's the current "best" list.
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [MM] Forest (2)
1 [ZEN] Island (7)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
2 [M13] Thragtusk
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
I went 4-1 at my weekly event with this list, with my only loss being to my teammate who only builds decks specifically to beat me. Dragon Stompy with 8 Moons, Chalice, a Stone Rain. Then him having absurd draws with me having sub par ones, and I still took a game.
No candelabra hurt my soul, but until DRS gets banned it is the right choice for multiple reasons I won't go into now.
The real test here is repeal vs Venser on the main. I loathe having a dreadful Omni matchup G1, and Venser is still great in so many matchups, Thragtusk makes the deck's cmc climb even further and repeal can no longer abuse candelabra, Repeal is essentially worthless against Shardless, all of these things pointing towards the demise of Repeal, and the movement of Venser to the MD.
Oracle and Thragtusk are extremely difficult for shardless to deal with and supply enough time to not care about higher cmc costs and are self sufficient enough to win off of being Hymned bare.
Nic Fit approves this message.Quote:
Thragtusk
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
How's the RUG and tribal matchups with the new list? RUG seems a bit more rough without the needles and a higher mana curve, and tribal such as goblins also seems a bit more challenging without sideboard tabernacle and elephant grass. Thragtusk is naturally good against both and deathrite is good at stopping threshold but it's a lightning rod for, well, lightning bolt. Haven't tested the new list as I put the deck aside a couple of months ago. I'm liking the new list but my meta has a ton of goblins all of a sudden, and a lot of tempo decks. Oracle seems a bit slow in these matchups.
I think you might be confused about what deathrite and thragtusk's roles are in that matchup. They aren't finishers. You barely run Black to use deathrite's spell ability. Deathrite is SUPPOSED to be a lightning rod. He is a healing salve for 1 green that could completely neuter them and accelerate you. The eloquence of DRS is that he makes them want to keep in swords/abrupt decay/bolts. I was playing it in the SB so he wouldn't be vulnerable to that hate that they sided out, but truth be told (or playtested), he was just better main so that their sideboarding choices are horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ac3eb
Oracle's purpose is to be a good blind draw post-hymn obliteration.
If you have goblins/tempo around, just run elephant grass.
Doing some last-minute testing to see if Sylvan Primordial can asway my hate of omni but not be completely dead main.
How long so you think this will last? No candelabras gives me a lot of incentive to try this out since I pretty much have everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
You realize that the section you quoted has the timeframe right?Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I like the list, especially the sideboard looks killer. But I feel like you want more fetches to fuel Shaman. Why Bog maindeck? I really think Shamans black ping ability isn't needed in this deck. And I dread CiPT lands more often than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I wanna highlight some more strengths I've noticed about DrS.
* Since removing cards with his abilities is part of the resolution of said ability, not the cost, you can actually use your Shaman to negate an opposing Shaman. Which again slows the game down, only benefiting us.
* As Rock said, it makes people seriously struggle with how to board properly. If they have two bolts/ swords in their hand and we don't even draw a Shaman, they're basically blanks in their hand. Even if they do nuke your Shaman, that's one less turn they are putting pressure on our most important resource, the life total.
* Hard casting PrimeTime on turn 4 is VERY good. This requires at least two locus in play, one being Cloudpost, and Shaman.(or Candel shenanigans) You could also easily cast Thragtusk on turn3, I haven't tried him here yet though.
* Hard casting Kozelik or Ulamog on Turn 4 is unfair. This, however, requires a Crop Rotation and at least 3 Cloudposts.(or Candel shenanigans)
The point I'm trying to make is that since adding Shaman to the mix, opening hands with an Eldrazi actually become marginally stronger as well. I could probably come up with 100 reasons to run Shaman, definitely run 4 all day every day.
The plan with DRS is even more insidious. DRS lets you go Trop-> DRS, Crop -> Vesuva, Turn 3 Titan/Thragtusk. So with zero Cloudposts, you're at 6 mana on turn 3. The power of this bad buy, is you can crop rotate all your colored sources away and be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
About running low fetch count, I don't want to fuel opposing DRS's even when I have on of my own, and often DRS is simply there for block/fog'ing, lifegain, and rarely the Turn 2 Show & tell accelerator.
Bog is there for situational-combo game 1, and randomly as your only black source for DRS.
Really really like the list. Man I am soooo on the fence with repeal!
I'm also liking glen-elendra's potential in that type of build, you can really muck up the board while still having a relevant MD counterspell, w/o the double blue req. The only reason I was turned off from her before was when omni pulled the hate so far away from the RUG. Now the hate is spread well IMO, maybe she can join the party. I did like the thrag tech, especially when Taylor had to read what the hell it did.
[lol at shaving a cool g$ off the list cutting three cards]
Sometimes I like having other minds to bounce ideas off of, so I know when I'm really off the deep end. But I've been testing Ghostly Flicker and actually loving it.
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [MM] Forest (2)
1 [ZEN] Island (7)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
2 [M13] Thragtusk
2 [GTC] Sylvan Primordial
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AVR] Ghostly Flicker
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
Not sure if I've gone off the deep end, or if I'm onto something ingenious.
The uses of flicker are crazy: titans/thragtusk/primordials, vesuva/glimmerposts/bogging/chasm sustain, anti wasteland, top drawing, Venser countering. The only major downside is you don't have strong removal, But I've always gone with a "you don't need removal" plan. Which means the sideboard Thragtusk perhaps should be removalx2/3. We'll see.
I had a game where I gained 40 life off of one titan by getting 2 glimmerposts, responding to the trigger by flickering the titan and the gotten-glimmerpost for 5x8 glimmerpost triggers.
Ghostly Flicker is pretty funny. Picking up on that Pauper Post tech, when are the Mulldrifters and Temporal Fissures going to show up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I personally love Repeal due to the fact that you can bounce opposing Insectile Aberrations for the low, low cost of U, plus it replaces itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
That's the biggest advantage of Repeal based on my experience. Against low-curve decks that run cheap (0 to 2cmc) threats, there's so much value in a bounce spell that replaces itself.
Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall, calling it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
:wink:
hi sorry, but i realy dont understand, how u make 6 mana without a cloudpost at turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
u have a tropical turn one into ds.
turn 2 crop rotation on tropical? into? and u get vesuva. with no cloudpost u have 2 lands = 2 mana + 1 with ds, or?
turn 3 third landdrop. 3 lands = 3 mana (when no cloudpost) + shaman = 4 mana.
i dont see the trick u make. plz explain, i think i play sth wrong
regards
Mjuz
PS: sry for my bad english
You crop rotate for a cloud post, play a vesuva for turn, then a land on turn 3Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjuz