[Deck] Turbo Depths

Hello good people,

After a break of a year not playing Legacy I decided to re-enter the format again. I got bored playing fair decks (Miracles and Death and Taxes) whilst I was playing Naya Loam prior to that. The latter deck I dropped at my countries Nationals years ago after being wrecked two consecutive matches versus Ad Nauseum Tendrils. I did however like that deck a lot and was looking for ‘something with lands’ as I really enjoyed playing the Loam deck back in the day. Then the MTG Goldfish post happened, I looked at the decklist and was sold on what the deck was trying to achieve.
At the last Grand Prix weekend I picked up the last missing cards for the deck and took it to a 1k Event that was hosted in my neighbourhood this weekend. I settled on the exact 75 posted on MTG Goldfish and decided I would make tweaks following my own experience. With no time for testing I did do some goldfishing the night prior to the event to at least get a feel what hands to keep versus unknown deck and which ones to mulligan.
The event itself went as expected – I made a lot of mistakes. I did however refuel my love for the format and instantly fell in love with the deck.
Below I’ll try to reconstruct how my matches played out – mistakes I believe I made and I’ll conclude by bringing up some card choices I’ll consider going forward and to which I would appreciate feedback.

R1 versus Miracles 2-1.
G1. I win the die roll and we have a long game in which I make the silly mistake to t2 Needle his Flooded Strand. It obviously should’ve been put on Sensei’s Diving Top after discarding his 1st Ponder t1. This is what basically costs me the game. He gets the lock out at one point I get to wreck his first Jace with Hexmage but the rest of comboplan just gets plowed or Terminussed away. Silly me, this game appeared very winnable had I resolved the Needle correctly.
G2. I have the combo on t2 and decide to go for it. He doesn’t have an aswer and we’re quickly to g3.
G3 I have the combo on t3 with double Not of this World backup, which he is unable to overcome. This time I did Needle his Top correctly. He dies with one in hand and one in play.
1-0

R2 versus Dredge 0-2
G1 I lose the die roll and t2 he has dredges his whole deck bar 4 cards. Seeing How I can only assemble the combo and not attack before t3 I have to scoop them up.
G2 I make a giant mistake by crop rotating into Bog upon a narcomoeba trigger. He has Therapy in the yard and I assume I have to protect my combo but simply should’ve waited a turn until he had at least 2 Bridges in the yard.
2-0

R3 versus Esper Stoneblade 2-1
G1 I have natural combo on t3 but decide to wait as I know he has a Plow in hand I can’t do anything about for the moment. My opponent however misjudges the deck after resolving a Clique targeting himself bottoming the plow. When he attacks w/ Clique the following Turn I crop rotate into a 20/20 block his Clique and the next turn I swing for lethal.
G2 I resolve a duress t1, he brainstorms in reponse, I get to see a hand with 3 lands a mystic, a clique and a true-name nemesis. This is bad news. Seeing how he neatly put the plow on top of his deck I never get into the game and True-Name carrying a Batterskull finishes me off a couple turns later.
G3. Most likely the most interesting match all day. At one point (sorry I don’t remember which turn anymore)I try to resolve a Chalice on 1. He appears to have 3 (!!) brainstorms in hand and two fetches to go with that. He is forced to play all three trying to find the Force of Will. He doesn’t have it and Chalice resolves. He’s now on the can I block you for eternity gameplan while I try and race his Batterskull. When I make a 20/20 he is able to block with Clique and dump Batterskull into play of a stoneforge activation EOT. In between, I resolve a Hexmage and dumped another Dark Depths on the board. When he attacks with the Batterskull I block with my Hexmage, sac it before damage on my Depths and keep the Untapped Lage token. This way he doesn’t go over 20 damage buying himself a turn and I kill him the turn after.

R4 versus Sneaky Show 0-2
I’ll start by emphasizing I don’t like the favours in this matchup one bit and I’ll mull over some idea’s how to improve this matchup later on.
G1. I make a mistake by taking his brainstorm when I see Show and Tell, Emrakul Griselbrand and a bunch of lands. I assumed I could race him as I was on the play and had the combo as none of his lands were Sol Lands. He naturally draws into it and punishes me for my bad pick/
G2. I discard all his business spells: one Show and Tell and two Sneak Attack leaving him with lands only. He topdecks Blood Moon and well I’m simply dead. I did board in Abrupt Decay but didn’t have it and he really could only win at that point by topdecking Blood Moon, which he did.

R5 versus Sneaky Show 1-2
G1 I race him by comboing on my second turn.
G2 He races me the turn I can go off.
G3 I throw away the game… When he Show and Tells with only two cards in his hand I decide to play nothing. In fact I should’ve dropped Needle naming Griselbrand and would’ve probably won the game on the spot. That was just a terrible mistake on my part and one I’m dedicated to never make it again. I then decide to play the Needle the turn after still, my opponent draws 14 cards and obviously counters the Needle. Then I make another mistake rather than dropping Depths I play a Bayou to keep open crop rotate for Karakas whilst I could’ve played Depths after resolving a Hexmage. The turn after he drops a Sneak Attack and I realize I’m dead. I still get to stall a little as I have both Maze of ith as well as Karakas in play but a hasty Emrakul off two Sneak activations is telling me she doesn’t care.

I figure I am out of contention for prizes with only one round to play and I decide to drop and register for a Legacy rebound event so I get to play a little more when there’s still something at stake. Unfortunately for me the event never fires and I end playing a round of testgames versus some friends (Burn, more Sneaky Show and Infect).
As said, I realize I made rookie mistakes in a couple of games but I’m keen to take stock and not to make them again. I was a little caught up in seeing what state Legacy was in a year after I have left and how to assemble my combo in the best way . I know I could’ve played a lot better. I do however greatly enjoyed playing the deck and will take it to the coming Legacy events I’ll be attending when I’m not occupied playing Modern.

As for the changes I’m considering I’ll share the list I’ve been playing.
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
3 Not of this World
4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian’s Stage
1 Ghost Quarter
SB:
1 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle

Possible changes – mana:
I’m thinking of trading places between Bojuka Bog and Karakas. The only part I’m very worried about is how awkard the manabase may be as a result. Anyone having any experience with this - I’m open to hearing from your previous experience? I’m quite sure there should be a 4th Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in the deck. I’ve noticed I sometimes end up with too little mana and have have to mull as a result or I don’t have the right colour combination.
As I also want to improve the Show and tell matchup. Would it be any better if I were to cut 3 Bayou’s and 4 Catacombs and go with 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Copperline Gorge and the 4th Urborg. This grants me 10 sources of red to play postboard Pyroblast (which I am really interested in).
I don’t believe Maze of Ith does enough to warrant a place in the deck. I’m sure it’s great when you’re racing but in general the card doesn’t strike me as majorly appealing, again, please correct me if I’m wrong.


Land Tutors.
I really liked Into the North, I think it perfectly fits the Turbo strategy. I do want some more resiliency against Blood Moon though so I am questioning running a misers Expedition Map instead of a Sylvan Scrying or an Into the North

Discard Suite.
The full 4 copies of Duress might not be what you always want, see the case in which my opponent brainstormed in response leaving me without valid targets. I’m considering cutting one Duress in favour of a singleton Inquisition.

These are my thoughts after a couple of rounds with the deck and look forward to receiving feedback on my thought process – especially with regards to the changes I am considering.

I enjoyed the Into the Norths for a while but I eventually cut them for Expedition Maps. When things don't perfectly you really need to be able to get any land in your deck (Ghost Quarter namely)

Hello, recently started testing this deck on cockatrice. I'm enjoying it as a change of pace from Reanimator. I've been on what looks like a stock turbo list (fetch+bayou, 4 ESG, 4 petal, etc.) with into the north. The fetch manabase feel right because I'm used to fetch manabases but what are the merits to running fastland/rainbow land/pain land manabases besides submerge? With the enemy fastlands coming out this deck could use the BG one instead of copperline gorge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motto82

Possible changes – mana:
I’m thinking of trading places between Bojuka Bog and Karakas. The only part I’m very worried about is how awkard the manabase may be as a result. Anyone having any experience with this - I’m open to hearing from your previous experience? I’m quite sure there should be a 4th Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in the deck. I’ve noticed I sometimes end up with too little mana and have have to mull as a result or I don’t have the right colour combination.
As I also want to improve the Show and tell matchup. Would it be any better if I were to cut 3 Bayou’s and 4 Catacombs and go with 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Copperline Gorge and the 4th Urborg. This grants me 10 sources of red to play postboard Pyroblast (which I am really interested in).
I don’t believe Maze of Ith does enough to warrant a place in the deck. I’m sure it’s great when you’re racing but in general the card doesn’t strike me as majorly appealing, again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Land Tutors.
I really liked Into the North, I think it perfectly fits the Turbo strategy. I do want some more resiliency against Blood Moon though so I am questioning running a misers Expedition Map instead of a Sylvan Scrying or an Into the North

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My 2 cents:

Mana - Karakas is not a main deck card at this point. Even decks with way more lands slots like RG Lands often relegate it to the sideboard. It just doesn't do enough in that many match-ups to justify the slot, especially if the way you fit it in is by removing another black source. This version is already very light on colored sources, having 16 each for black and green... 4 of which are one shots for black and 8 of which are one shots for green. If you are going to go the 3+ color route with the manabase to fight certain decks better, blue is the way to go imo. Having access to Brainstorms and Flusterstorms (which beats even a T2 S+T with Force of Will backup) helps more in that kind of match-up than Pyroblast does. If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent, Sneak and Shows presence in the meta may be reduced anyway for what that's worth. I agree on Maze, it helps mostly in already favorable match-ups.

Tutors - I'll echo what DNSolver said. Finding utility lands is unbelievably important, especially against decks like D+T and Lands. Decreased speed for increased versatility is the trade-off. Map is a fine card as a 1-3 of in these types of decks.

For what its worth i did some poking around in the d&t forum and they are talking about getting wrecked by dread of night. 1 dread shuts off half their deck and 2 dreads shuts off the other half. Currently it looks like they have no way main or sideboard to remove it once it hits play. Answers to it are few and far between thats for sure. Mangara is being cut in favor of all the amazing bullshit they recently got from the new conspiracy set. I expect to see a rise in d&t in the meta.


Quote from d&t forums

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Also I think people might be a little too concerned about beating DnT hate before we first solve the first level 'what's the strongest g1 deck' question w/ the new toys. Looks like there were a grand total of 0 DnT decks in the t16 of the Legacy Classic this weekend, so it might take a little bit longer before everyone is playing 4 Dread of Nights in their main.

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So that signals to me that even though d&t is a bad match up the infrequency we will see it might not Warrant more sb slots. If d&t does become more prevalent or you have alot in tour meta we should consider adding 4 dread in board. Until then i fear we take the unfavorable matchup as is instead of gimping our other matches by commit 4 dread to sb.

This is what I am running atm, I am basically testing -2 Duress for +2 Library.

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Into the North
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Sylvan Library
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
3x Not of this World

3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Dark Depths
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Snow-covered Forest
1x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter

SB
1x Pithing Needle
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sphere of Resistence
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
3x Surgical Extreme



This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:
Miracles: +4 Chalice, +1 Needle, +2 Abrupt, +2 Surgical, -2 IoK, -4 TS, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Petal -1 Sylvan Scrying
Needle: Top, Karakas, Jace

Burn: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere +1 Maze, +3 Surgical, +3 Decay, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 TS, -3 NotW, -2 Library, -3 Needle
Needle: Zero

ANT: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere, -1 Needle, -3 NotW -2 IoK.
Needle: Top, Polluted Delta/Misty Rainforest

Grixis Delver: +4 Chalice, -3NotW, -1 IoK
Needle: Wasteland, DRS

Eldrazi: +1 Maze, +1 Needle, -2 IoK
Needle: Wasteland, Jitte, Eye

Deathblade: +1 Needle, +3 Abrupt, +1 Maze, -1 Bog, -1 Into the North, -1 Sylvan Scrying, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Spirit Guide
Needle: Wasteland, Stoneforge/Jitte/Sword, DRS

Control Lands: -4 TS, -2 Iok, +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +3 Surgical Extraction
Needle: Wasteland, Port, Thespian's Stage

Shardless: +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +3 Abrupt, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World, -1 TS
Needle: Wasteland, Lily/Jace

Sneak + Show: +2 Sphere, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +1 Needle, -1 Bog, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World
Needle: Gris, Sneak attack


What do you guys think?

Made some changes to the primer. See the change log.

"9/6/16: Added spooky's decklist, removed "Plan B Deck", and added summary of versions. Changed the number Ratio's of match descriptions to lexical descriptions to better represent and describe the matches."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:

Burn: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere +1 Maze, +3 Surgical, +3 Decay, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 TS, -3 NotW, -2 Library, -3 Needle
Needle: Zero

Control Lands: -4 TS, -2 Iok, +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +3 Surgical Extraction
Needle: Wasteland, Port, Thespian's Stage

Shardless: +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +3 Abrupt, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World, -1 TS
Needle: Wasteland, Lily/Jace

What do you guys think?

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vs Burn - What are you trying to Extract in this MU? As odd as it sounds, TS is pretty good here post board. It often trades 2 life for a 4 or more damage spell like Fireblast or Price of Progress, but more importantly hits Ensnaring Bridge which is one of the few ways I've ever lost to Burn post board. I'd suggest keeping the discard in over the extractions.

vs Lands - Discard is surprisingly good here, especially on the play where it can grab Exploration, Manabond, or a Mox to at times color screw them or slow them down. It grabs tutors and can force a preemptive Crop Rotation as well. Forcing them to crop before they want to, find a Karakas, etc can be very valuable.

vs Shardless - I like having Steppe in against them. One way they can be annoying is by setting up a Strix block followed by a planeswalker (Jace bounce or Lily Sac) to remove the token. Turning all the tutors into Strix answers in addition to Decays is nice. Maze doesn't seem all that necessary since they are so slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:

What do you guys think?

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What do you side for D&T?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Negator77'

My 2 cents:

Mana - Karakas is not a main deck card at this point. Even decks with way more lands slots like RG Lands often relegate it to the sideboard. It just doesn't do enough in that many match-ups to justify the slot, especially if the way you fit it in is by removing another black source. This version is already very light on colored sources, having 16 each for black and green... 4 of which are one shots for black and 8 of which are one shots for green. If you are going to go the 3+ color route with the manabase to fight certain decks better, blue is the way to go imo. Having access to Brainstorms and Flusterstorms (which beats even a T2 S+T with Force of Will backup) helps more in that kind of match-up than Pyroblast does. If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent, Sneak and Shows presence in the meta may be reduced anyway for what that's worth. I agree on Maze, it helps mostly in already favorable match-ups.

Tutors - I'll echo what DNSolver said. Finding utility lands is unbelievably important, especially against decks like D+T and Lands. Decreased speed for increased versatility is the trade-off. Map is a fine card as a 1-3 of in these types of decks.

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Thanks a bunch for running me through your thought process.
Additional question: how good exactly is Brainstorm in a deck w/ this little amount of fetchlands? Do you reckon crop rotation and other tutor effects make up for that loss in order for Brainstorm to still be really good enough in a deck such as this?
The power of Flusterstorm in painted scenario is uncontested, that's perfectly clear, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

For what its worth i did some poking around in the d&t forum and they are talking about getting wrecked by dread of night. 1 dread shuts off half their deck and 2 dreads shuts off the other half. Currently it looks like they have no way main or sideboard to remove it once it hits play. Answers to it are few and far between thats for sure. Mangara is being cut in favor of all the amazing bullshit they recently got from the new conspiracy set. I expect to see a rise in d&t in the meta.


Quote from d&t forums



So that signals to me that even though d&t is a bad match up the infrequency we will see it might not Warrant more sb slots. If d&t does become more prevalent or you have alot in tour meta we should consider adding 4 dread in board. Until then i fear we take the unfavorable matchup as is instead of gimping our other matches by commit 4 dread to sb.

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At the 1k event I attended this weekend it was the 4th deck in presence but none of them made t8 though.
The meta breakdown (for those interested):
Eldrazi 6
Grixis Delver 5
Miracles 5
Death and Taxes 4
Sneak and Show 3
Reanimator 3
4c Loam 2
Dredge 2
Lands 2
Storm 2
Stoneblade 2
BUG delver 2
Burn 2
MUD 2
Turbo Depths 1
A Soldiers Legacy 1
Imperial Painter 1
UW Spirit 1
Grixis Pyromancer 1
UR Delver 1
Infect 1
Throug the Breach 1
The top 8 shaped up like this:
Eldrazi
BladeDrazi
Infect
Storm
Dredge
RUG Delver
Sneak & Show
Burn
So basically no Miracles or Grixis Delver in t8 either... Finals were between Eldrazi and RUG Delver. The latter took down the event.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

What do you side for D&T?

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I knew I forgot a deck. I will post when I get home from work.

Thanks for the feed back about SB. I have yet to play the deck in paper, and control lands is rare online.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

I knew I forgot a deck. I will post when I get home from work.

Thanks for the feed back about SB. I have yet to play the deck in paper, and control lands is rare online.

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I've also noticed you don't board in Abrupt Decay versus Sneak + Show, whereas they tend to board in 2 to 3 Blood Moon, depending on how many copies they have postboard. Other than this they also tend to board in Echoing Truth which would imply cutting Not of this World probably isn't the best idea?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motto82

I've also noticed you don't board in Abrupt Decay versus Sneak + Show, whereas they tend to board in 2 to 3 Blood Moon, depending on how many copies they have postboard. Other than this they also tend to board in Echoing Truth which would imply cutting Not of this World probably isn't the best idea?

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What would you recommend boarding out to keep the NotW? I think the spheres would be useful, but not killer. I want my discard, would you take out a petal or spirit guide? To be honest I am never quite sure when I should be boarding those out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motto82

Thanks a bunch for running me through your thought process.
Additional question: how good exactly is Brainstorm in a deck w/ this little amount of fetchlands? Do you reckon crop rotation and other tutor effects make up for that loss in order for Brainstorm to still be really good enough in a deck such as this?
The power of Flusterstorm in painted scenario is uncontested, that's perfectly clear, thanks.

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Anytime. Yeah, there are 16 shuffle effects main(6 fetches, 4 crops, 3 Scrying, 3 Map)... That is plenty to consistently be able to shuffle away cards with Brainstorm when needed. Depths decks usually run so many redundant pieces that there is almost always some excess to get rid of, whether that is extra fast mana, extra Urborgs, discard after they have shown no relevant cards, etc. E. Map can be good here since you can sometimes EOT Brainstorm (usually a suspect play), then untap and crack Map if you need to during your upkeep knowing exactly what you need to tutor for after seeing the three extra cards. In an absolute pinch, extracting a random card from our graveyard post board just to get a shuffle is an option. It was downright cringe worthy when the play was made, but I also ended up winning a game recently due to Ghost Quartering myself to shuffle and clear two dead cards. So 16 natural shufflers, 4-5 emergency valve shufflers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

What would you recommend boarding out to keep the NotW? I think the spheres would be useful, but not killer. I want my discard, would you take out a petal or spirit guide? To be honest I am never quite sure when I should be boarding those out.

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Still a bit difficult for me to say as I'm very new with the deck and I am in no way an expert as yet. However, I've played against Sneaky Show a lot in the past as it's the pet deck of one of my mates and from that experience, combined w/ my own analysis of how the matchup plays out I'd be boarding something along these lines:
+ 3 Decay (versus Blood Moon)
+1 Maze of Ith (versus a single Griselbrand, it doesn't really shine in this matchup though but it's interchangeable w/ lands that do even less)
+1 Karakas
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ghost Quarter
-1 Duress
-1 Sylvan Scrying
-1 Sejeri Steppe

I don't think this is 100% correct either but my reasoning is that I want to keep in as much additional mana effects (Spirit Guides and Petals) because of two reasons:
1. It is a race
2. Blood Moon. This at least gives me the colors to use Decay to get out of it if for some reason I needed to tap out.

With blooming marsh I think I am gone to cut completely the red golgari charm being an ok alternative.
I wanted to write sideboard strategy against the most common matchups :

Miracle : +2 grip + 2NoTW +3 surgical +2 chalice +1/2 golgari charm -4 crop -4 duress -1 therapy -1 scrying

Tempo/ grixis with YP : +2/3 surgical as an answer to wasteland and opponents surgical +2 golcari charm +1 grip (if needle) -2 duress -2 scrying -1 probe

vs RUG no golgari charm in ; maze in

Death and taxes : +4 NoTW +2 grip +2 charm +1 maze-4 duress -2 map -3 crop

infect : +2 charm +1 maze -2 scrying -1 map

storm : +2 chalice +3 surgical +1 bog -4 needle -2 scrying

elves : +2 golgari charm +2 surgical -1 sejiri steppe -1 scrying -1 ghost -1 needle

eldrazi : +2 grip +1 maze + 4 Notw (karakas/endbringer) -4 duress -2 map -1 steppe

shardless : +2 chalice @0 +1 grip + some surgical if you expect your opponent to play them -2 duress -1 map


Notice that surgical can answers opponents one by targeting their target and searching for nothing.


4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Forest
2 Khalni Garden
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

2 Birds of Paradise

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Pithing Needle

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
1 Marit Lage

I've been playing this deck on MTGO, and its been fun.

Decided to build it IRL too.

Here's my list for critique, I'm 7-1-1 as of yet with this exact 61.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 SNow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World

What are your thoughts?

I noticed that I've been needing Green the most, so might end up buying the Catacombs. I just don't feel like splurging on the fetches yet.

I didn't think the deck would end up being this strong though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Here's my list for critique, I'm 7-1-1 as of yet with this exact 61.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 SNow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World

What are your thoughts?

I noticed that I've been needing Green the most, so might end up buying the Catacombs. I just don't feel like splurging on the fetches yet.

I didn't think the deck would end up being this strong though.

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Its obvious that mana is your issue. In the primer I explained that "For each color you want to include you should have at least 10 lands that produce that color. Fetch lands are included in that count."

looking at your mana base, you only have 3 lands that produce green. Even with ESG and lotus petal you have a total of 11 which is 1 more than the bare minimum. Honestly ESG and petal maybe only contribute half of their quantity towards that number because they only last 1 turn. If you win on that turn, great, but if you don't then late game...turn 4+, is gonna be hard for you. Best case you consider esc and petal account for 4 green producing lands towards the 10, and you have 3 actual producing lands, and if you change the deltas to catacombs you'd be at a more accurate 11 green land count.

Id also be willing to bet that you have trouble producing enough black sometimes. Your land count for that is right on 11 too and you have double blacks for hexmage to worry about. You also only have 3 urborg's.

test some games with deltas as catacombs and see if that helps.... or just copy spooky's manabase cause you are both running turbo versions and I don't think i've heard him complain about it yet.

EDIT
just compared your green sources to spooky's and y'all will have the same number of green sources if you change your delta's to catacombs. Im sure that will help a lot. Even so cutting it that close to the minimum amount you have to realize that Determined 10 was the absolute minimum for the deck to be playable, but I also knew that occasionally i would be hurting for that color mana ocasionally.

Actually, Black has been a non-issue. Even with only 3 Urborgs.

My problem is that my search is Green, and I've been having trouble getting the colour.

I switched out 3 Polluted Delta and tried out 3 Foothills in their place and the deck runs a lot smoother now.

I don't feel like buying the Catacombs on MTGO and in paper just yet.

The deck is good. Really good.

Nice job guys!

Why did you choose cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize?


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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Why did you choose cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Because I love how much Cabal Therapy rips hands apart.

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

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Playing Manaless Dredge has made me an expert with Therapy, and I've even sac'd an extra ESG to it for Flashback.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

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He actually has Gitaxian Probes in the deck, which is a way to look at the opponent's hand before Therapy. It's not much without the creatures to flashback Therapy, but I guess it's pretty much what storm decks do.

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Originally Posted by Uboh

He actually has Gitaxian Probes in the deck, which is a way to look at the opponent's hand before Therapy. It's not much without the creatures to flashback Therapy, but I guess it's pretty much what storm decks do.

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The discard spell I'm not fond of in my list is Hymn to Tourach. I'd much rather be spending BB on Hexmage.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

The discard spell I'm not fond of in my list is Hymn to Tourach. I'd much rather be spending BB on Hexmage.

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Hymn is just mediocre. I have included it my sideboard for testing. I really only use it against combo decks because their only assets are cards in thier hand and although you can get value out of hymn it can also just wiff horribly. Its more than likely ill switch it out for something once i figure our what deck i need more help against.

I think I'M going to try adrieng's manabase once Blooming Marsh comes out.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I think I'M going to try adrieng's manabase once Blooming Marsh comes out.

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it's a solid manabase and you'll notice that he has met the minimum suggested colors that I indicated. He is also running 12 land tutors 1 of them is expedition map so it doesn't require colors. However, against a deck with moon it may be harder for him to recover if he doesn't hold a map back or search for basics with a tutor.

Keep in mind tho that everyone's metagame here is different. So while we all have most of the root cards the same, the variations likely help with the various metagames we encounter. I think the deck has gotten to a point where it's established and the differences in lists are there to deal with varying metagames. It would be extremely difficult to decide that one is better over another. Most, if not all of the cards that people are including in their variations have strengths/weaknesses over the other cards for those roles. Also, note that some have slightly different play styles. Some players may not be good with cabal therapy like you are. I would imagine i am poor with it because its not a card I ever play in legacy. So some of the deck variations account for things like that. Some players are better ALL IN players and might prefer a deck like spooky's or maybe they are better midrange and would prefer a deck like mine.


@Adrieng and others who have their lists posted in the primer (Negator77, Spooky, Adrieng). Let me know if you want me to update your list with something you post. I'll leave it the same until you tell me otherwise.

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Originally Posted by apple713

it's a solid manabase and you'll notice that he has met the minimum suggested colors that I indicated. He is also running 12 land tutors 1 of them is expedition map so it doesn't require colors. However, against a deck with moon it may be harder for him to recover if he doesn't hold a map back or search for basics with a tutor.

Keep in mind tho that everyone's metagame here is different. So while we all have most of the root cards the same, the variations likely help with the various metagames we encounter. I think the deck has gotten to a point where it's established and the differences in lists are there to deal with varying metagames. It would be extremely difficult to decide that one is better over another. Most, if not all of the cards that people are including in their variations have strengths/weaknesses over the other cards for those roles. Also, note that some have slightly different play styles. Some players may not be good with cabal therapy like you are. I would imagine i am poor with it because its not a card I ever play in legacy. So some of the deck variations account for things like that. Some players are better ALL IN players and might prefer a deck like spooky's or maybe they are better midrange and would prefer a deck like mine.


@Adrieng and others who have their lists posted in the primer (Negator77, Spooky, Adrieng). Let me know if you want me to update your list with something you post. I'll leave it the same until you tell me otherwise.

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I only got good with Therapy because I played it. A LOT. It got to the point where I could name cards in my opponents hand off their first fetch land/first card played.

Also, I'm more of an all in balls-to-the-walls type of player. I love how the deck can fit to anyone's play style. Its not something most decks can do.

Got top 16 in this month's Legacy challenge online. My decklist is in this thread.

R1: UR Delver Burn 0-2
G1 I have to mull to 4. The 7 card hand was very slow, with no ways to get either combo piece. Then the 6 and 5 had no lands.
G2 He has two Forces to stop my Chalice on 1 and my combo attempt after I mull to 6 cards.

R2: BRw Zombies + Bloodghasts with graveyard synergies 2-0

R3: Miracles 0-2
He had two Forces for my 2 Not of This Worlds G1 then topdecked Karakas, then G2 he gets around Chalice on 1 pretty well with Karakas, Clique, and Mentors.

R4: BUG Garbage 2-0

R5: UB Reanimator 2-0
Deck is garbage, easy win.

R6 and 7: Elves and Storm 2-0 2-1
Nothing to talk about here.

Adrieng’s deck uses llanowar waste's. Is this because not using bayou protects against submerge? I haven't tried out a slower list like this, but it seems interesting.

Also, anyone have tips against Miracles. I am like 1-5 against them. In my last match, even with needles on the top, I never seemed to be able to keep up with all their answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Adrieng’s deck uses llanowar waste's. Is this because not using bayou protects against submerge? I haven't tried out a slower list like this, but it seems interesting.

Also, anyone have tips against Miracles. I am like 1-5 against them. In my last match, even with needles on the top, I never seemed to be able to keep up with all their answers.

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I try to bait out their FoWs, but since they have so much stuff against us the match up isn't exactly easy.

Could a super-control prison deck like this work? Kind of a combo of this deck and RG Combo Lands.

4 Depths
4 Stage
4 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library

Is this doable at all? Kind of like taking the more controlly, card-advantage version that I've seen around and taking it to the limit by maximizing on Loams. Perhaps if we put in Exploration / Mox Diamond? Has someone tried something like this and can tell me how viable it is?

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Could a super-control prison deck like this work? Kind of a combo of this deck and RG Combo Lands.

4 Depths
4 Stage
4 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library

Is this doable at all? Kind of like taking the more controlly, card-advantage version that I've seen around and taking it to the limit by maximizing on Loams. Perhaps if we put in Exploration / Mox Diamond? Has someone tried something like this and can tell me how viable it is?

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if you flip back a couple pages you'll see that someone did well with a list similar to that. My only thing about that list is that if you are going to controls you might as well play RG lands unless you are porting the deck into a different shell like trying to combine dark depths and miracles or something.

@DNSolver. I saw you 5-0 a competitive league. Congrats. How did you like Ancient tomb in the board? Also Have you considered Krosan grip in the board to deal with painter/miracles?

Took the deck to my local legacy tournament and took away the grand prize.

Went 4-0

R1: UB Reanimator (2-1)
R2: RG Combo Lands (2-1) one of the funnest matches I have played in a while, I survived his Marit Lage attack and even countered his Karakas' activation thanks to NoTW.
R3: UG Infect (2-0)
R4: Burn (2-0) Turn 2 Marit Lages both games.

I updated my list a bit, will post it later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

@DNSolver. I saw you 5-0 a competitive league. Congrats. How did you like Ancient tomb in the board? Also Have you considered Krosan grip in the board to deal with painter/miracles?

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5-0'ing leagues is pretty value for this deck, considering that each time you 5-0 you get boosters equivalent to $35.

I've been bringing in Ancient Tomb with the Chalices - I consider it the 9th anti-combo slot (along with 4 Surgicals 4 Chalices, though these don't work against all combo decks obviously). It's also fine to have as a land because it can act as a 4th Urborg in my list for comboing on three lands (Stage, Depths, Ancient Tomb). The only other realistic option is Maze of Ith which does little against Show and Tell (Needleing Griselbrand is your best here anyway), but can hold off Delver / Goyf for awhile. It's the only slot that I've found flexible in the deck TBH. Actually, the 3rd Bayou - I've been considering making one into a Llanowar Wastes to allow you to play around Submerge with a preliminary Crop Rotation for it. Once the new fastlands come out, I think I will -4 fetchland +4 of those for awhile.

Krosan Grip - Abrupt Decay is better at everything this card does for this deck, and hits more cards besides. If you name a card that Krosan Grip hits that Decay can't that is realistically playable against our deck before it is combo time, we can discuss it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Krosan Grip - Abrupt Decay is better at everything this card does for this deck, and hits more cards besides. If you name a card that Krosan Grip hits that Decay can't that is realistically playable against our deck before it is combo time, we can discuss it.

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omniscience
Sneak Attack
Aluren
batter skull
inkmoth Nexus
helm of obedience

just off the top of my head.

i run 4 decay main and still play 3 grip in board. I must admit I haven't tinkered much with board since i made it but I made it at a time when omni was played a lot because dig was still in the format. If sneak and omni are not issues in your meta, then decays should be fine. HOWEVER, krosan grip is G instead of GB making it easier to cast for some manabases. Also, under moon, its easier to get access to 1 color instead of two. Do note that grip does not hit magus of the moon tho.

Additionally, there are times when split second does help more than just being uncountable. For example, when you have to target a sensei's divining top.

So as you can see there are some trade offs. I'm sure there are more but I'm completely fried right now.