[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

There's a list at the bottom of Bardo's last article (linked above) of my UGw build with Counter-Top in the main.

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But you never played it on a tournament.

I played it twice, in the Legacy SE of GP Strasbourg and in a small town Tourney.

My list in Strasbourg looked like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Portent
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [FD] Serum Visions
2 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

I went 4-2 and placed Ninth at Strasbourg.

And here are the Top8 of that Tournament in that small town, herxheim:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=593

Solid list though, I just run 2 Counterbalance main because they suck against Goblins. And I don't got enough space in the maindeck.

Ah, and Predict+Top is INSANE!!!

Zulander, find a way to put some Needles maindeck. They're like the greatest metagame/random slot ever.

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Usually, I tend to shuffle them away. When I'm up against a deck with Wastelands like Vial Goblins, I'm likely to bait them with Tundras, then fetching for a Trop. Forest is usually your insurance.

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So why play it in the first place? While You might only need 16 blue sources in the dec having 17 stastically decreases the number of mulligans you have to take thanks to the one forest draws. Also drawing one trop and one forest is horrible versus wasteland. I would have to agree with Hat that in a metagame with loam or crucible basics make more sense but against Goblins duals are almost always better. I admit it does not make a large difference but Magic is all about squeezing out tiny advantages to suceed more in the long run.

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Sorry. But I was congradulating your Top 16 finish at Lille, and winning the Side Event in San Diego.

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No offense taken. I was just saying that because I have seen many discussions on boards where some Pro participates and people start to bandwagon with him even though he does not know what he's talking about.

@Hat: Needle is there primarily for Goblins and Aether Vial. An unanswered vial set to 4 basically equals gameloss. If the Goblin player does not have vial out by turn 2 I will set a mage to vial and then play a needle naming Gelmplam. I almost never name wasteland or port since gobos can usually only use those efficiently if they have vial in play. My dec is also less dependent on getting to 4 mana for enforcer than our older versions thus using needle to protect mana is no longer nescesarry. While I would like to have more enforcers (and I boarded the second one in very often) he is kind of clunky, plus tarmogoyf makes the dec much more aggresive and thus you do not have to rely on the control the board then make a dragon plan as often as you used to.
EE in all honesty is kind of random and mainly fills the role of Needle number three. While it's not as good at handling vial as is needle it is much more flexible and provdes a solution to countless cards and pumps goyf.

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Originally Posted by mackaber

So why play it in the first place? While You might only need 16 blue sources in the dec having 17 stastically decreases the number of mulligans you have to take thanks to the one forest draws. Also drawing one trop and one forest is horrible versus wasteland. I would have to agree with Hat that in a metagame with loam or crucible basics make more sense but against Goblins duals are almost always better. I admit it does not make a large difference but Magic is all about squeezing out tiny advantages to suceed more in the long run.

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It's logical. But dont forget, siding out the 17th land is probably one of the greatest things about the deck, and it's fantastic engine. Portent also needs to be a 4-of. It's amazing. Personally, I think it's better than Visions.

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No offense taken. I was just saying that because I have seen many discussions on boards where some Pro participates and people start to bandwagon with him even though he does not know what he's talking about.

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lol. I've seen that many times on the boards too. I'm probably the one person who doesnt care what Pros think of the format, but it is nice to see more people (including pros of course if they feel like they need a more casual environment) playing this format. Like Vintage, I like the fact it's usually endorsed and supported by people, not the company.

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@Hat: [stuff about Vial]

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I personally think Vial is one of the best cards in this deck. It's so strong agianst Vial Goblins. Without Vial, this deck would fall apart against Goblins.

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EE in all honesty is kind of random and mainly fills the role of Needle number three. While it's not as good at handling vial as is needle it is much more flexible and provdes a solution to countless cards and pumps goyf.

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EE is better against the non-Goblin decks. It's busted good against any Aggro Control mirror.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

I personally think Vial is one of the best cards in this deck. It's so strong agianst Vial Goblins. Without Vial, this deck would fall apart against Goblins.

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You mean Needle obv.

But in a Meta that's not full of Goblins, Engineered Explosives could also be good.
Plus, it fuels Tarmogoyf better than a Needle because you will have to Brainstorm it onto the Library and then mill it away with Predict.

But the problem at that point is, that a needle on the board is better than in the grave. But I think that's a tricky thing in "my" Counterbalanced Build up there.
It runs every Cardtype. And if a Sensei just disturbs in the earlygame, it can be exchanged with the top card and then you can Predict it away, generating CA and boosting Tarmogoyf.
It can also be also be done with Counterbalance, but you have to brainstorm it onto the Top, or just finding it with Cantrips.

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Originally Posted by Adan

You mean Needle obv.

But in a Meta that's not full of Goblins, Engineered Explosives could also be good.

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No more typing at 4 am I guess. lol.

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Plus, it fuels Tarmogoyf better than a Needle because you will have to Brainstorm it onto the Library and then mill it away with Predict.

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In the mirror, he can be a 5/6 Pre-Board.

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But the problem at that point is, that a needle on the board is better than in the grave. But I think that's a tricky thing in "my" Counterbalanced Build up there.

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I usually Predict away other copies of Tops I see.

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It can also be also be done with Counterbalance, but you have to brainstorm it onto the Top, or just finding it with Cantrips.

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I do like the fact that Predict synergizes with Counterbalance.

I prefer U/G/r Aggro Thresh to the other variations. However, if I was playing Thresh/w, this is what I would play:

U/G/w Threshold
Counterbalance Threshold/w

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

As an aggro tempo deck that utilizes control and wants to play beatdown, I prefer the red splash much more. G/r Beats fueled with cantrip and countermagic just seems like a much better strategy that way. If I'm going to play the white splash, I want to play control. The deck runs a rediculous amount of cantrip... if you count the Top's, that's 16 card quality cards. The deck runs a creature base of 10, with 2 of them being huge evasive finishers that dodge EE. For that reason, I run 3 EE. EE @ 2 might blow up Goyfs and Counterbalances... with Counterbalance, multiples are dead anyway. With Goyf, the deck should only really need to EE in dire straights. The deck utilizes enough cantrip to get them in the yard or back into the library... in the yard, they fuel Goyf:

8 Fetchlands
10 Creatures
18 Instants
7 Sorceries
5 Artifacts
3 Enchantments

The EE's suppliment the StP's as removal, and the deck runs a ton of cantrip anyway. 7 creature removal spells seems sound, and 3 of them can mass sweep stuff or blow up Chalice. EE is also an answer to EtW... if I wasn't running these, I'd probably make them Stifles. They can answer Vial maindeck, where EE is more versatile than MD Needle IMO.

The deck also utilzes the Counterbalance/Top combo MD. If I'm gonna play white Thresh, I want control. Counterbalance gives the deck stack domination.

Postboard, the deck brings in BEB and Needle vs Goblins to play the tempo game... you Daze, Force, StP, and BEB their early creatures and beat face with Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Needle slows down their mana production. Once they stabalize and start beating, hopefully you can drop Enforcer by then and swing ftw. Krosan Grip answers randomness in other matchups, so does Needle. Crypt answers whatever graveyard strategies, and Meddling Mage further answers combo, control, and even aggro/control if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I prefer U/G/r Aggro Thresh to the other variations. However, if I was playing Thresh/w, this is what I would play:

U/G/w Threshold
Counterbalance Threshold/w

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

As an aggro tempo deck that utilizes control and wants to play beatdown, I prefer the red splash much more.

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ROFL, now that phrase made me laugh xD xD xD

Grow is NOT a tempodeck. It was never supposed to be a tempo-deck. NEVER. It's still aggro-control and it will remain being Aggrocontrol. The only difference is that the red version has got more versatility thanks to the burn.
The white Version can only make damage via Critters, but can generate far more Cardquality than the Red Version.

And anyways, if you want to play it aggressive, why the hell are you playing Counterbalance???

Every Permanent makes Nimble Mongoose only worse. Ah, and Engineered Explosives together with Counterbalance are not that good. You want to keep Counterbalance on the table. You should rather Predict useless copies away than blowing them up together with Tarmogoyf (just imagine a scenario where Explosives2 rocks and sucks at the same time).

That's the reason why no one plays it anymore. Playing Explosives maindecked is still a meta-choice. If there are a lot of decks playing Chalice then it's the right call, otherwise it's rather bad.

edit: If there's really the need of running Artifacts, there's a build which doesn't run Mystic Enforcer and 4 Mishra's Bauble. They fuel Threshold, they fuel Tarmogoyf and they make a perfect setup with Predict.

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Originally Posted by Adan

ROFL, now that phrase made me laugh xD xD xD

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I dont believe that Threshold is a Tempo deck, but however, I do think this deck can play the Tempo role.

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Grow is NOT a tempodeck. It was never supposed to be a tempo-deck. NEVER. It's still aggro-control and it will remain being Aggrocontrol. The only difference is that the red version has got more versatility thanks to the burn.

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Well... Grow is not just Aggro-Control, according to the metagame clock, they're also a Midgame deck in order to survive in this metagame. So Grow is a super hybrid of Aggro-Control and Midgame.

The white Version can only make damage via Critters, but can generate far more Cardquality than the Red Version.

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And anyways, if you want to play it aggressive, why the hell are you playing Counterbalance???

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And run Meddling Mages as well. Personally, I like Top MDed... but not Counterbalance. Counterbalance is like your Armageddon, but much more flexible.

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Every Permanent makes Nimble Mongoose only worse. Ah, and Engineered Explosives together with Counterbalance are not that good. You want to keep Counterbalance on the table. You should rather Predict useless copies away than blowing them up together with Tarmogoyf (just imagine a scenario where Explosives2 rocks and sucks at the same time).

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Against Hanni Fish/Mirror, just slow playing the living hell out of you. You want two Explosives then.

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That's the reason why no one plays it anymore. Playing Explosives maindecked is still a meta-choice. If there are a lot of decks playing Chalice then it's the right call, otherwise it's rather bad.

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It's a good Sideboard card against Combo and Aggro-Control.


@Hanni: I love the list... even though I dont agree with Counterbalance MDed, it should probably be considered for certain metagames. The mana base needs Basic lands, like the lone Forest, and the Sideboard needs lots of work.

You should cut 4 Blue fetches, and 1 Tropical Island for 3 Windswept Heath, 1 Forest, and 1 Tundra.

The Sideboard really needs work. Meddling Mage and Tormod's Crypt in the 75 is win more with Counterbalance. You want more actual threats here. A 3rd Enforcer, and some Control Magic should be considered.

BEB sucked without Stifles really. You might want a number of Stifles in the board.

Null Rod > Pithing Needle. Null Rod shuts off Crypt, and Vial. It's kinda cool, I thought. Null Rod can also be sided in against combo, and Affinity.

Here's the board I'd play in that deck.

1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Control Magic
3 Hydroblast
3 Stifle
3 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Null Rod > Pithing Needle. Null Rod shuts off Crypt, and Vial. It's kinda cool, I thought. Null Rod can also be sided in against combo, and Affinity.

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But Needle neuters Gempalm Incinerator, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and to a lesser degree Siege-Gang Commander.

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Originally Posted by kabal

But Needle neuters Gempalm Incinerator, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and to a lesser degree Siege-Gang Commander.

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Yes, that's true. but Game 2, Gempalm and SCG doesnt matter that much that they would warrant to be called by Needles.

Ports and Wasteland are worth calling with Needles. I'm thinking a 2/2 split.

Null Rod shuts of your SDT as well. Anyways, in the past it was considered as a substitute for needle, but you got the point yourself, because Null Rod doesn't shut off Port, Wasteland or any other annoying Stuff like Pernicious Deed, Manlands, Psychatog, Mother of Runes...

I think it had it's reason why Null Rod vanished from Grow-Sideboards and was finally replaced by Pithing Needle.

Anyways, somehow we have a communication-problem as i often just don't understand what you want to express with your words. Slow playing against HanniFish? I don't think so. Only Counterbalance makes it possible to stall around against HanniFish. But normally the hanniFish player will set a Meddling Mage on StoP, drop a Jotun Grunt and then he will smash your face in, maybe with Mother-backup so Grunt becomes unblockable.
But without Counterbalance the Matchup is positive for Fish.

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Grow is NOT a tempodeck.

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Then why do you play low costed, or even free, spells then? Obviously the white splash isn't focused around playing the tempo role, that's why I went with a more controlling route.

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To say that the red splash isn't a tempo deck

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The red splash isn't? Let's see... you drop early guys, burn early blockers, swing for beats, and then finish the opponent off with burn, along with free countermagic and low costed cantrip. The deck plays like G/r Beats, except it utilizes cantrip for card quality/Threshold and free countermagic. If that isn't the closest example to tempo in this format, then I don't know what is.

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And anyways, if you want to play it aggressive, why the hell are you playing Counterbalance???

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I guess you misunderstood. I said I prefer the red splash because I like playing Threshold aggressively. Then I said that, if I were to play the white splash, I'd want to play a very controlling version.

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Every Permanent makes Nimble Mongoose only worse. Ah, and Engineered Explosives together with Counterbalance are not that good. You want to keep Counterbalance on the table. You should rather Predict useless copies away than blowing them up together with Tarmogoyf (just imagine a scenario where Explosives2 rocks and sucks at the same time).

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I wanted more than 4 StP's as removal, and EE is a pretty strong card here. It can blow up stuff up to 3cc. This deck only uses 10 creatures (and 3 Counterbalances), so it seems like wiping the board clear then dropping guys would be a strong plan. EE answers EtW tokens (and I'm not running Stifle so I need an answer to that) as well as Chalice. It can blow up Vials vs Goblins, it can answer problem cards like Silver Knight + Jitte, etc etc so on and so forth. This could be Condemn I suppose, but I like EE. Not only that, but I can also Predict it to the graveyard or pop it for 0 just to grow my Goyf bigger.

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That's the reason why no one plays it anymore. Playing Explosives maindecked is still a meta-choice. If there are a lot of decks playing Chalice then it's the right call, otherwise it's rather bad.

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Heh, I think EtW is a bigger meta concern than Chalice right now. Who cares though, since it answers both.

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4 Mishra's Bauble

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Ehh... I don't really feel the need to run subpar cards. If I want artifacts for Goyf, I want artifacts that do something useful. Bauble is a free cantrip that provides no card quality and extremely limited information about the opponent's deck. I think I'll pass.

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I dont believe that Threshold is a Tempo deck, but however, I do think this deck can play the Tempo role.

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If you've ever seen my aggro version of Thresh/red, you'd say it was a tempo deck.

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And run Meddling Mages as well. Personally, I like Top MDed... but not Counterbalance. Counterbalance is like your Armageddon, but much more flexible.

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Well, Counterbalance has been doing well for me against alot of different decks. It sucks vs Goblins and should probably be dropped solely because of that. Otherwise, it's great when my opponent has like 1 guy out and I have a huge Goyf and the Counterbalance/Top combo... they usually scoop. However, I can easily see these becoming Counterspells.

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Against Hanni Fish/Mirror, just slow playing the living hell out of you. You want two Explosives then.

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Against alot of decks, I want to slow play it. I'm attempting to control the gamestate via the stack mostly and the board somewhat, then drop fatties. I don't usually lead with creatures early unless I need them as a defense. This is the complete opposite from the way I play Thresh/red.

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Meddling Mage and Tormod's Crypt in the 75 is win more with Counterbalance.

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Could you explain this a little more. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to play Thresh/w without Meddling Mage. Counterbalance randomly answers stuff without Top and even a Top out doesn't garuntee a hard lock. Not to mention that it's slow. Meddling Mage comes down for 2 and stops an opponent's spell cold until removed, and even beats for 2 in the process. However, I can see where Counterbalance and Mage conflict as fullfilling the same function in the deck. I don't understand how it replaces Crypt though... Counterbalance doesn't answer graveyards. Maybe you meant as an answer to Loam, but this deck still only runs 13 2cc spells, and there are other graveyard strategies that I'd like to have an answer to.

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As far as my decklist:

-1 Tundra
-2 Sensei's Divining Top
-3 Counterbalance
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Plains
+2 Stifle
+3 Counterspell
+1 Condem

I decided that I'd just simply drop the Counterbalances and Top's from the deck. I still really appreciated Top as a draw engine, but I figured this would shore up my Goblins matchup. 5 1cc spot removal spells, 2 EE to deal with Vial if need be, Counterspells instead of Counterbalances (since these can still answer bombs if they don't have Vial out), and Stifle has always been strong for me vs Goblins. The deck now has 2 Stifle 2 EE to deal with EtW, too.

I don't think I'm going to put Counterbalance in my SB, but I do agree that without it, I need Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic or something for the mirror.

SB
-3 Blue Elemental Blast
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Control Magic
+2 Tivadar's Crusade

New decklist:

U/G/w Threshold

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict
2 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
2 Control Magic
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tivadar's Crusade
4 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

I like the Counterbalance Thresh list alot still but I figure this list has a better Goblins matchup. My reasoning for Crusade here is that I'm not going to try and drop it early. It's my mid-late game reset button if things get out of hand, where I should be able to cast 1WW. Early game, the deck can utilize tempo elements to slow the board development of the Goblins player (Stifle, Daze, Force, StP, Condemn, and Needle on Vial). With Needle's postboard, it should also be a little easier to achieve WW. Crusade is my mid-late game reset button, Enforcer is my mid-late game finisher.

@Hanni: If you want to have a positive matchup versus Goblins you need needles main dec. In the above list you should replace 2 stifles with needles if you plan on beating gobs on a regular basis.

Here's a deckbuilding challenge for everyone, copy and pasted form the UGR Thresh thread...


Speaking of Tarmogoyf and Aggression....

I think we should build a deck that can shift gears. It plays beatdown when it needs to, and it plays control when it needs to. You play cantrips, so this should be easy to accomplish. Deciding which cards should go in is something we have to discuss. Good good example of a deck that can switch roles or play different roles early are Salvagers Game, and perhaps Meandeck Gifts.

So here's a deckbuilding challenge for all of you, involving cantrips and Tarmogoyf.

It must meet some of these requirements.


1. It can play beatdown or control, depending on the situation.
2. It runs a mix of control and threats.
3. It must run cantrips.

Okay, those are standard ThreshGro requirements, but I still think you should all think about this deckbuilding challenge and what I am trying to accomplish here. We're tampering with a card called Tarmogoyf. When we could play Control, we want to go all-out in aggression. What I am trying to say here is that, with the printing of Goyf, we could just as easily play control when we want/need to, or play aggro when we want/need to.

What's the matter with the deckbuilding contest??? What's wrong with my counterbalanced Build?

But anyways, of you want to match those criterias, you simply HAVE TO play Counterbalance since Counterbalance ist THE CARD that allows you to switch to control-mode, or nearly even lock, which also supports the aggro mode (being immune to S2P and so on).

The other possibility is to play 4color Threshold with Isochron Scepter. Isochron Scepter with Accumulated Knowledge can generate CA like hell (but that's too utopistic), it can be flexible with an imprinted Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice, it can be controlish with Counterspell or Swords to Plowshares...

Markus Seine plays 4color Thresh like that and he even runs 1 random Research/Development (that card sucks, but it can be annoying like hell when imprinted in a Scepter, letting me decide every turn how Development has to be divided -.-)

But there is another deck which matches the Criterias, it's created by Germany's Team "ayB" and is named "Baseruption".
Is something between HanniFish and Grow, also playing 4 colors. This is the list (4 Top8 appearances within 1 Month):

// Lands
3 [A] Underground Sea
3 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [RAV] Island (2)

// Creatures
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [TSB] Shadowmage Infiltrator

// Spells
4 [IA] Portent
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate

The cardadvantage this deck is able to build up is increadibly large. Chrome Mox seems to be a strange choice, but normally a Mox nearly acts like a Time Walk so this deck can make a lot more pressure (but a lousy topdeck in the mid- and lategame, but as i said this deck can build up such a huge CA that drawing a Chrome Mox from the Top won't hurt that much.

But originally Chrome Mox purpose was to drop a 1st turn Meddling Mage onto Flash, but Flash won't be a problem anymore...

We wanted to write a primer for this deck (much similar to the German one we already did) and post it in the Open Forum. Four Top 8 appearances in 50+ tournaments within one month is an awesome record and this deck is quite strong. I hope Dennis Kampelmann (Oddball on the Source) is writing it already. ;)

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Originally Posted by Adan

Chrome Mox seems to be a strange choice, but normally a Mox nearly acts like a Time Walk so this deck can make a lot more pressure (but a lousy topdeck in the mid- and lategame, but as i said this deck can build up such a huge CA that drawing a Chrome Mox from the Top won't hurt that much.

But originally Chrome Mox purpose was to drop a 1st turn Meddling Mage onto Flash, but Flash won't be a problem anymore...

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Aside from accelerating the deck (for example getting counterbalance online early against Cret Belcher or other fast combo decks), Chrome Mox helps counter 0cc spells (with counterbalance), such as LED, Thormod's Crypt, etc. If only there would be a way to put them in the graveyard, then Chrome Mox would be really good in this deck (hehe).

land already takes care of countering 0 cc spells with counterbalance, and it doesn't seem worth the card disadvantage to jump ahead on the manacurve with this deck.

Adan, you have a good list. The point of the challenge is to make other people think about Goyf-Thresh, and how it should be played. It seems other people are making more aggressive approaches, when playing Control can also serve as a vital role to the deck.

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Originally Posted by sammiel

land already takes care of countering 0 cc spells with counterbalance, and it doesn't seem worth the card disadvantage to jump ahead on the manacurve with this deck.

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I agree with you on that. I was just pointing out that Chrome Mox makes countering 0cc spells with Counterbalance more probable. I think this deck may have a problem managing turn one pressure from EtW combo decks; for personal meta considerations (lots of Cret Belcher here) I'd maybe add Stifles in the MD or SB. Chrome Mox actually helps in these match-ups since you can get E. Plague a turn faster (which is sometimes a matter of life or death).

Hello everybody. I've been playing UGw Threshold casually for some time, with this decklist:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Naturalize
2 Control Magic
2 Hail Storm
2 Porphyry Nodes



What I want to discuss is the need of a board-sweeper in this deck: I usually have trouble battling pure aggro decks, and I find Engineered Explosives are not powerful enough to turn the tide.

How is that I haven't seen Wrath of God/Nevinyrral's Disk in any build? Are there better options to reset the board, or is it that I don't play my strategy well against aggro?


Another issue is the sideboard: I've played casually without sideboards, and recently got interested in building one to attend tournaments and play more seriously. I've looked at many lists, but there are cards that I don't know why are there. Looking at my sideboard:

hydroblast: obviously against anything red
Tormod's crypt: graveyard hate
Hail storm: vs goblins
Control Magic: supposedly vs aggro, but I found it quite slow :(
Porphyry nodes: I've been testing it and it was useful only in a few games.
Naturalize: always good to have.


My question is: what cards do you prefer in your sideboards, and why?



Thanks for reading :)

you play threshold casually!!!!

you sadistic sunnofa... ok well,

Obviously you would like to update it a little; the most beaming issue with the list is the lack of Tarmogoyf.

try going
-4 werebear
+4 Tarmogoyf

I would look at some of the lists in this thread to give you some other suggestions.

There are 2 separate cantrip engines you could look into, either quick theshold (mental note, predict) or quick dig (portent, serum visions); both are good, but I perfer the dig myself.

I also like running stifle in the MD,, but that's just me.

Thanks for the answer. Why is it strange to play Thresh casually? ^^

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Originally Posted by Forty

Why is it strange to play Thresh casually? ^^

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It is one of best decks in legacy. It is not common to play casualy "best" turnament decks. :wink:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

There are 2 separate cantrip engines you could look into, either quick theshold (mental note, predict) or quick dig (portent, serum visions); both are good, but I perfer the dig myself.

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This statement seems a bit misleading. I play Portent, Serum Visions and Predict. Incidentally, Predict is a lot worse when Mental Note is your only other non-Brainstorm tutor. It goes much better with Portent/Serum Visions.

In addition to all of those, I run a couple of Sensei's Divining Tops. So there really are many ways you can go with the cantrip base.

Ok ok, I'm clearly a newbie :P

But I want to start playing tournaments, that's why I built a competitive deck and started testing it with friends. I still have to lean to play with it, and also how to build a SB. I'll keep reading ;)

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

This statement seems a bit misleading. I play Portent, Serum Visions and Predict. Incidentally, Predict is a lot worse when Mental Note is your only other non-Brainstorm tutor. It goes much better with Portent/Serum Visions.

In addition to all of those, I run a couple of Sensei's Divining Tops. So there really are many ways you can go with the cantrip base.

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LAM, I'm curious about your build. Mind posting it? I'll post mine. :laugh:

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It is one of best decks in legacy. It is not common to play casualy "best" turnament decks.

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lol i play threshold casually too, and my friend plays his T1 deck against me...i have a competitive casual play group...

so hey, i've been keeping up with the forum for a while now, and now finally decided to join. i'm thinking of playing a bit more competitive, and i have a small local tournament coming up on sunday. just hoping i can get some help here with my build. here's my decklist, thanks.

lands (18)
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 tropical island
3 tundra
2 island
1 forest

counters (13)
4 force of will
4 daze
3 counterspell
2 stifle

cantrip base (15)
4 brainstorm
4 portent
4 serum vision
3 mental note

removal (5)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 engineered explosives

creatures (9)
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 mystic enforcer

Sideboard
4 Meddling mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Control Magic
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Stifle
1 Pithing Needle

i have no clue the meta at the store tourney, this will be my first one ever, sorry for the lack of info. here's some questions i have regarding the list:

1. how many needles do i need in the board? what can i take out for it?
2. should i main deck the mages? do i really need the full 4 in the board, or should i take one out for needle?
3. is mental note still needed? i think goyf and krosan grip makes mental note a bit subpar? if so, it'll clear a lot of space :)
4. should i have more than 1 enforcer in the sideboard?
5. how is stifle in the maindeck? if i add them in the main, should i be using 3of them?

i like the top and counterbalance version, but i won't use it for the tournament since i have no experience whatsoever with it. i'll definitely try it out later on.

ok thx

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

LAM, I'm curious about your build. Mind posting it? I'll post mine. :laugh:

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I don't actually play White Thresh. I play red, but it's heavily influenced by the old White builds. Without Magma Jet, the cantrip bases remain much the same between red and white (I don't take out cantrips for burn like a lot of people seem to be doing.)

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I don't actually play White Thresh. I play red, but it's heavily influenced by the old White builds. Without Magma Jet, the cantrip bases remain much the same between red and white (I don't take out cantrips for burn like a lot of people seem to be doing.)

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Same. I just play 4 Lightning Bolts, and maybe a couple MDed Pyroclasms as metagame slots in place of a Fledgling Dragon and a Predict.

I've been working on a way to fit Counterbalance MD.

Counterbalance Threshold
Lands (17)
1x Forest
3x Island
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
4x Tundra

Creatures (13)
2x Mystic Enforcer
3x Meddling Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose

Other Spells (30)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Vision
4x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares

I think it adds consistency, more reliability on the counter suit.

So win-more. I dont think you should run Mages and Counterbalance together.Your deck is also lacking Portents.... How can you not consider them? Is it because it's a slow trip? If so, that's a horrible reason not to consider them.

i was wondering why control magic is used instead of threads of disloyalty. the 1 less cc is huge, ramping to 4 mana is sometimes a problem.

i was wondering why control magic is used instead of threads of disloyalty. the 1 less cc is huge, ramping to 4 mana is sometimes a problem.

sorry, double post

Ramping to four mana isn't that big of a deal when you play 12-16 cantrips.

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Originally Posted by Filipinho

I've been working on a way to fit Counterbalance MD.

Counterbalance Threshold
Lands (17)
1x Forest
3x Island
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
4x Tundra

Creatures (13)
2x Mystic Enforcer
3x Meddling Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose

Other Spells (30)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Vision
4x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares

I think it adds consistency, more reliability on the counter suit.

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I can just agree AniAmerican's post, your build lacks Portents.
THEY ARE THE BEST 1-Drop IN THE WHOLE DECK AFTER MONGEESE!!!

And Meddling Mages are overkill. Anyways I don't like him a lot since Flash is banned.

Also, I would swap the amount of Counterbalances with Tops. More Tops means more Cardquality and even cardadvantage with Predict (also, milling away a dead SDT with Predict generates CA and boosts Tarmogoyf. It's the ultimate setup with Predict. But Counterbalance is just random when you don't got SDT).

AND: Kick that shitty Forest!!! Never run a non-blue land when running Counterbalance. Anyways, THAT Forest in the opening hand often means auto-mulligan. That's why I simply play:

4 Strand, 4 Delta
4 Tundra, 4 Tropicals
1 Island

I was thinking....

Aggro-Control mirrors are everywhere now, as well as Counterbalance. I guess the best solution is to fight fire with fire, and have a fire truck when you need to put out the fire on the side. That fire truck happens to be Krosan Grip.

Anyways, here are my ideas...


// The Twist
// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 33
-Cantrips-
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Serum Visions
-Card Advantage-
3 Predict
-Answers-
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
-The 2-ofs that makes running cantrips useful-
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle
3 Hydroblast


I love the 2-ofs, they truly make the cantrips shine, and I always assembled Counterbalance/Top when I needed them (turn 3-4 usually).

Right now, I feel that I should cut Predict for Serum Visions for added versatility, just for the sake of better opening hands. Besides, Tops function like Predicts anyway.

Post-board, you side out different parts of the 2-ofs in favor for better cards in that match up. Against Goblins, you side out 1 Daze, 2 Enforcers, 2 Counterbalance, 2 SDTs for 1 Needle, 3 Hydroblast, 3 Stifle.

Against Fish, you

-1 Daze
-1 Forest
-1 Swords to Plowshares

+3 Engineered Explosives

Against Thresh

-1 Daze
-1 Forest
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Pithing Needle

+1 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Control Magic

Combo (Just TES, and CRET Belcher)

-2 Needles
-1 Forest
-2 Counterspell(Side out 2 Swords to Plowshares instead)
-2 Mystic Enforcer(Side out 2 Swords to Plowshares instead)
-4 Nimble Mongoose

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Counterbalance
+3 Engineered Explosives
+3 Stifle
+3 Hydroblast


Yes, shocking, you're only fighting with Nimble Mongoose. I sure as hell know that Tog fights with Togs against Combo. Look, when you stop drop Counterbalance, I dont see the difference of applying pressure, especially when they have a faster clock then you. Like I said, you have Counterbalance, and that is already a threat. I call this the Tog approach, many will probably disagree with me.

Against CRET Belcher, they might use the man plan (which is Goyf), I'm sure Enforcer is probably better than Geese here, and you should be winning anyways regardless if you beat them down and stopped them from comboing off.


Against Red Death

-2 Counterbalance
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Counterspell/SDT

+3 Engineered Explosives
+2 Control Magic


Tell me what you guys think, thanks. I'd really like to change the Sideboard up, and believe me, I cringed my teeth siding like that against Combo.

Where's Krosan Grip in your list or misunderstood I something ?

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Against Goblins, you side out 1 Daze, 2 Enforcers, 2 Counterbalance, 2 SDTs for 1 Needle, 3 Hydroblast, 3 Stifle.

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I don't understand why you side out Enforcer. OK, Goblins packs eventually some LD (Port+Waste), but you have Needle to get rid of vial, so Goblins will need its mana to actually cast something. Also your list contains 3 Basics and you side in 3 Stifle (!), so what ? With your list i'd probably side out Counterspells and if needed some more Dazes. These loose you too much tempo. Instead go with removal and add Explosives. I think trying to control the board with Swords, Blast, Explosives, Needle and your green walls is the key. Try to Counter Ringleader and race him with Enforcer.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Combo (Just TES, and CRET Belcher)

-2 Needles

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Nice Play :P
Whatever i think it's totally ok to drop Mongoose in these Matchups. If you survive the first 3 Turns and drop your hate you will usually win with whatever creature like Mountain Goat or Tarpan.

I still find interesting that you don't run Meddling Mage. Do you think it's too slow ?

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Originally Posted by Joe Eigo

Where's Krosan Grip in your list or misunderstood I something?

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:tongue: Lack of space apparently. I want to put them back in though.

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I don't understand why you side out Enforcer. OK, Goblins packs eventually some LD (Port+Waste), but you have Needle to get rid of vial, so Goblins will need its mana to actually cast something. Also your list contains 3 Basics and you side in 3 Stifle (!), so what ? With your list i'd probably side out Counterspells and if needed some more Dazes. These loose you too much tempo. Instead go with removal and add Explosives. I think trying to control the board with Swords, Blast, Explosives, Needle and your green walls is the key. Try to Counter Ringleader and race him with Enforcer.

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Actually, having Enforcer doesnt changfe the match up at all Post-Board!

It's usually the fact that when you play Enforcer, you've probably already won, or you just gave them a gap to lay their bombs down. I prefer to keep my lands open and prepare for the worst to come.

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Nice Play :P

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I side out Needles because they tend to prefer to lay their EtW down rather than Belch you. I dont recall a game where CRET Belcher actually tried to Belch me, unless they want to lose of course.

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Whatever i think it's totally ok to drop Mongoose in these Matchups. If you survive the first 3 Turns and drop your hate you will usually win with whatever creature like Mountain Goat or Tarpan.

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I agree.

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I still find interesting that you don't run Meddling Mage. Do you think it's too slow ?

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Thats my reasoning actually.