[Deck] Ichorid

Bane_of_the_Living: You're making good arguments, I'll definitely test a Gamble-less list with 3 Street Wraiths. Anyway, I'd never cut a Putrid Imp, it's the best dredge enabler of this deck.

About cutting Lion's Eye Diamond: It works. It definitely works, if you're playing against Threshold, Landstill and MUC all day long. However, there are some matchups where speed is relevant, by cutting LEDs you seriously weaken your Aggro and Combo Matchups.

About Baubles: look like a worse Street Wraith.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Cutting Narcomoeba is lunacy.

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Yeah. But I also think it's lunacy to play less than a playset of Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll and Putrid Imp. Bridge and GGT are obvious, you might say, but I think a list that plays less than 4 Ichorids or Imps (and I see those frequently) is just as good as a list with only 3 Trolls. It's like taking a good deck and cutting the best cards from it. It's like Threshold with 3 Mongeese, 3 Goyfs and 2 Force of Wills. Or Goblins with 2 Lackeys and 3 Warchiefs. Or... -- it just doesn't make sense.
This is also a reason why bucci's quite unusual list keeps me interested. He essentially plays 8 Putrid Imps (Tribe) and 8 Ichorids (Ghoul). This just has to be good in some way, in spite of any odd choices.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Me too, I could see the black activation being worth the extra 2 power compared to Nether Shadow(maybe). How often do multiples in the yard become a waste? I dont really imagine being able to pull out 2 during an upkeep that often so a second in the yard is kinda meh. Sure you could pull it out next turn potentially, because they stick around, but who wants to have to wait?

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My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Is it ever a problem with the fact that Ashen GHoul comes out "during your up keep" while Ichorid is "at the beginning"? I mean, are there ever times you have to choose between one or the other because you would go under the 3 creature requirement for Ashen Ghoul by removing the black creature and the Ichorid from your yard?

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You can respond to Ichorid's trigger by activating Ashen Ghoul, making it not a problem.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Is 10 dredgers enough? Even in the Vintage version with Bazaars, I feel that going below 12 is a crime against the deck.

I'd have to agree about NOT cutting the Narcomoebas. Those and the Bridges are the cards from FS that gave this deck a nudge to the upper tier.

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I checked on Germagic to see what people are doing in terms of numbers of Golgari Thugs-
1 Thug- 1 person
2 Thugs- 6 people
3 Thugs- 5 people
4 Thugs- 2 people

So I would say that 10 dredgers is doable. Though it is worth noting that two of the three lists that made first place both ran 3 Thugs, and there was one first place list with 2 Thugs.

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Originally Posted by bocci

My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.

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First of all, I like your list a lot. It's an interessting new take on the deck.
But I have to agree, that cutting LEDs and Narcomoebas probably isn't the way to go.
My question is: what is the problem with overextending? A well-timed Crypt will fuck your gameplan one way or the other. If you've dredged half of your library or only 20% won't matter.
I really like the idea of additional Imps. I wouldn't cut them under any circumstances (just like the Ichorids for that matter) and the possibility of getting one in your opening 7 more regularly seems appealing.

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Originally Posted by bocci

I checked on Germagic to see what people are doing in terms of numbers of Golgari Thugs-

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I wouldn't play less than 11 dredgers if you're not playing Gamble, but 10 is probably ok if you desperately need the space in the deck.

@Gamble: I was quite pleased with that card, winning the game every time I cast it. The only problem I see is the amount of coloured mana in the deck, so I consider forcing 1/2 Undiscovered Paradise into the deck in the place of the Dread Return package (I only run 2 DR and a Zealot these days).

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Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid

Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below

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Wow, this looks really familiar. Oh yea, it's the original version of this deck back when Rav first came out, you added Street Wraith and Bridge.

With that said, I've always liked this version better because it's less of a glass cannon and has a better game against hate since it's not completely reliant on Bridge. Personally, I would drop the tribes for more dredgers or land because I don't think they're needed but reliably having a mana source in play is.

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Originally Posted by bocci

I have been a lurker on the boards for a while and I have seen many instances where some new guy comes in and says that his (or her) version of the deck is the nuts and everyone else has been doing it wrong for ages. So I will try not to do that, but I think you guys should really consider my thoughts on this deck. Brace yourselves, I cut Lion's Eye Diamond, Dread Return, Narcomeoba and added Ashen Ghoul.

Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid

Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below

Why this deck is better:
-You don't have to over commit yourself. Lion's Eye Diamond and Dread Return both require you to over commit yourself, either by making you put all your eggs in one basket or by not working without half of your library in your graveyard, leaving you vulnerable to graveyard disruption. So I replaced those cards for slower but more reliable cards, Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul.

-Game 1- If your opponent has disruption, this deck will give you a much better shot at winning. If they don't, it is still pretty explosive and you should still be in good shape. In games 2 and 3, regular Ichorid sides out Dread Return for disruption, so you might is as well design the deck with that condition heavily in mind.

-Consistency. This deck is as counterspell proof you can possibly hope to be. Also, Meddling Mage does little and Mr. T does nothing. There is no single card this deck desperately needs to resolve. Also, Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are a really great opening for the deck, and with 10 rainbow lands, it happens all the time. Also, no more dead Narcomeoba's in your opening hand (or the 5 Dread Return cards) and look how redundant the deck is-

14 Mana (Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow lands)
16 Card Draw (Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Street Wraith)
12 Discard (Putrid Imp, Tribe, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe)
10 Dredge (obvious)
12 Win (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul)
4 Disruption (Cabal Therapy, But if you flash 'em all back, thats 8!)

This also means that you can shave a card here in there if you want to work in a set of Thoughtseize without major consequences. (Maybe -1 Tribe, -1 Wraith, -2 Ghoul)

-Street Wraith- Maybe it's just me, but I really like Street Wraith in the deck, and it is fantastic to finally have room for a set.

Obviously, an opening hand of 3x Golgari Grave-Troll, Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum, and Street Wraith in the regular version is better then this deck, but I think that a hand with Putrid Imp, Rainbow land, Golgari Grave Troll and Careful Study and is not much worse and a lot more likely.

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Hopefully I can politely tell you why your build is underdeveloped.

First off I can tell your building off the extended ports since your running Tireless Tribe. But let me key you in on a few things here.

Pithing Needle shouldnt be amazing against you. It can hit PImp, it can hit Coliseum and thats it. Your playing a combo deck, why should you play one that gets totally crippled by a largely played card. Tormods Crypt is already house against you, dont make things worse.

Speaking of artifacts that rape your mother that every deck can play.. Chalice of the Void for one is alot worse for you than it is in the list Ive fathered.. Lets make a little chart.

My deck..
4 Therapy (still sacs guys!)
4 (Breakthrough)
3 PImp

Heres yours
4 Therapy
4 Tireless Hobo
4 PImp
4 Carefull Study
4 (Breakthough)

That doesnt seem to good for you.

14 Lands is going to make your dredges alot worse. None of those lands are even Dakmor Salvage, a card many of us include for our metagames. Infact I should stop right here and ask you why your even dredging if your not playing Narcomeabo.

It looks to me like your playing a version that wants to go to late game. I dont think you realize the reason this deck perfoms so well is the fact that it does win on turns 1-3.

Your running only 10 Dredgers which I highly advise against but thats not even justified by running Gambles..

Mr T can be dealt with by running one single copy of Crippling Fatigue that can open back up Dread Return.. Not playing Dread Return is ridiculous, it lets you capitalize on Bridge so much its not funny.

Not playing LED is well... LED is the reason to play Legacy, just stick to Extended with your build. Your gaining nothing just by porting Ashen Ghoul into a 1.x deck.

Your version just screams bad for so many reasons. Your going into late game is the biggest reason. Your really gonna let your opponents draw more Mogg Fanatics? Hardcast Leyline?

Just get better at playing with LED's and learn how to play the deck. If I sound rule at all I apologize but coming in here saying "This is why my deck is better" is very antagonizing and uncalled for.

I pretty much agree with Bane, that version looks ALOT like what I'm going to run in extended this season, except theres no Ashen Ghoul in extended. Also I dont really understand what you gain by not running Narcomoeba, you would never SB them out even if side out DR right? So its not like hes no good without DR...a free creature is almost never bad actually.

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Originally Posted by bocci

My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.

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Well, yes I figured that the 4x was more suited to your version. I was speaking more in the context of throwing a couple Ashen Ghouls in a traditional Combo shell to see if you could get a little redundancy of Ichorid.

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Originally Posted by bocci

You can respond to Ichorid's trigger by activating Ashen Ghoul, making it not a problem.

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Ahhh, thank you. I never played the Friggorid version of this only the LED Combo, so Ashen Ghoul has never come up.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

a free creature is almost never bad actually.

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Speaking of free creature, I was playing around with Basking Rootwalla a while back and wondered if anyone else has tried him. He was really good with the Dread Return engine if you had him in your opening grip, and could make for some explosive starts, but poor in every other instance. Just throwing that out there.

EDIT: Rootwalla was also good when you ripped him off of the top of your library with Coliseum and Breakthrough.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Speaking of free creature, I was playing around with Basking Rootwalla a while back and wondered if anyone else has tried him. He was really good with the Dread Return engine if you had him in your opening grip, and could make for some explosive starts, but poor in every other instance. Just throwing that out there.

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I think I'd run Dryad Arbor before I'd run Rootwalla, and I dont think Id run the Arbor.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I think I'd run Dryad Arbor before I'd run Rootwalla, and I dont think Id run the Arbor.

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Rootwalla is a little better than arbor, I think, because it doesnt cost your opening land drop and you dont lose it if you drop a first turn land and discard your hand. He's still probably doesnt make the cut though.

On the Narcomeoba thing, in my version of the deck, an extra 1/1 just doesn't make that much of a speed difference, though it is an aid to Cabal Therapy, I agree to that. However if I were going to cut something, it would probably be the Street Wraith, and it that case, I really think a set of Thoughtseize would be better then Narcomeoba in this deck if you are worried about resolving hand disruption. Extra 1/1s don't really speed up my version.

On the number of dredgers, this is really not a huge deal, just cut two cards. Today I changed my list to subtract a Putrid Imp for a Golgari Thug.

Chalice of the Void certainly can be a problem if they are on the play and drop it for 1. I counted 31 (7 SB, I think) Chalice of the Voids in the last 5 events on Germagic (though 4 were in an Ichorid deck which is probably not going to be a problem), however this is compared to 60 Force of Will. Personally, I like the trade off (granted, Force of Will is much less devastating, but already if you have a Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe so is Chalice). But that is why we have sideboards. Also note, that if you play this deck, there is a good chance people will drop their chalices for 0 in an attempt to stop Lion's Eye Diamond. Still, this is a good reason to work in a few Deep Analysis.

And on the extended port issue, I just built this deck by starting with the old list, and thinking that opening with Putrid Imp was really great and wanting to work in Tireless Tribe, and then maximizing consistency. But I can see the resemblance. Not sure why I bothered to mentioned this, but whatever.

I suggest thinking about my version like goblins, but with a more reliable turn 3 and 4 goldfish, is good against control without needing to draw Aether Vial, can play 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Thought Seize (they really aren't hard to work in), in exchange for some vulnerability to certain things. Also, Tireless Tribe is a nasty answer to Tarmogoyf. Anyway, try it or don't, but I like it.

This has probably been mentioned before, but is there any room for Standstill?
The opponent would undoubtably have to break it, but the list looks pretty tight and stanstill comes online turn 2 when you would probably rather be smashing face....

Im not sure why you are worried about Force of Will, this deck crushes Thresh and Landstill and can race Cephalid Breakfast, Force has never been a problem for me.

2 mana is to much in most of the situations, if you cant play it from your graveyard (like Deep Analysis, who you can play with LED).

But i have a quesion, I play this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (think I gonna play 4 Peedle here, after al reasons of playing Peedle over CotV)
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

I keep playing 12 Dredgers. I like it very much, and now I sometimes have not enough Dredgers, with less Dredgers i have to Mull even more. Also it's good for your Ichorid plan, cause Golgari Thug can be removed for him, and with more Dredgers it isnt so hard te remove him.

Is there any cards in this deck that can be cut for Street Wraith? It sounds as a nice card in this deck te me, cause you can go manaless and you can pitch it to Ichorid, and I like to have a good second win-plan with your Ichorids.


Mvg

You could pretty safely cut a Dread Return and a Thug, but other than that not much can go unless you want to cut a land and a PImp, which Im not sure is wise. Street Wraith doesnt have to be a 4-of so just running 2 in place of a Thug and DR may be worthwhile, thats what I'm trying right now.

I like it to drop an Imp turn one (cause you can discard all your Dredgers), and I also like 12 Dregders. 3 Return is many times "to much", but sometimes you dont find one so you have to wait one turn with your kill,, so 3 sounds good to me. I dont want to run less then 12 lands.

But I think I gonna test the same as you do.. 4th Thug and 3rd Return is very nice, but cutting the shouldn't be a problem.

Mvg

SW as 2-off is really bad! You almost never draw it, the only thing you do with it is pitching it to Ichorid.

Mvg

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

SW is really bad! You almost never draw it, the only thing you do with it is pitching it to Ichorid.

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Edited for greater accuracy.

So what about Yesmilord version game1 with pure explosiveness with no tormod problem:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
3x Street Wraith

4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Dread Return
3x Deep Analysis
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage
4x Narcomoeba

To remove the last 15 cards with SB:

4 Careful Study
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Street Wraith
2 Undiscovered Paradise

To get Bocci version game2 more aggro than combo, less vulnerable to graveyard hate.

Then you'll let your opponent cold!

What's the point to have a sb if you can never play it and if it hinders your mull options?

61 cards is not good in a deck that wants to chain dredges, hit DA, and draw LED/Breakthrough. Also a tranformational SB isnt really any good b/c they extended-like version is still vulnerable to Crypt, Leyline, and Jailer, you for sure need reactive answers to their answers.

So, I think I may be the only person who does this, but I'm actually running
2x Cephalid Sage instead of 1 or 0. I think it makes the deck slightly more explosive, becuase you can almost guarantee a Dread-Returned Sage after a handful of dredges. Any thoughts on this?

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.

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Excactly what I was thinking when I tested the deck for the Dutch Legacy Champs. Here is my report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...026#post185026

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.

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StL players have been doing this (3 ceph sage) for approx. 1 month.

Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

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Slow cards are less than impressive. :)

What about Platinum Angel as 1-off in the SB? In some matchups its really good..

Mvg

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

What about Platinum Angel as 1-off in the SB? In some matchups its really good..

Mvg

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My standard sb usually includes one. Especially if I expect Ceph B, TES, or the mirror match.

If you know for sure your opponent is removing all their spot removal its sometimes worth going for but against combo your leaving your Dread Return win in for speed anyways.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

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Wasnt this obvious when the deck was called Friggorid??

I've been playing this deck for a couple of days now and I'm still unsure about a couple of things.

Should I play first, not knowing what my opponent is playing? In other words, should I try to win as soos as possible, or prepare to use my end step as discard outlet?

Same question holds for situations where I do know what my opponent is playing. Are there any matchups where I shouldn't play anything and only discard at the end of the turn (which means going second)?

Edit: Should I play Chalice or Needle in my board? People seem to have different opinions...

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I've been playing this deck for a couple of days now and I'm still unsure about a couple of things.

Should I play first, not knowing what my opponent is playing? In other words, should I try to win as soos as possible, or prepare to use my end step as discard outlet?

Same question holds for situations where I do know what my opponent is playing. Are there any matchups where I shouldn't play anything and only discard at the end of the turn (which means going second)?

Edit: Should I play Chalice or Needle in my board? People seem to have different opinions...

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You should always play first against unknown opponents and if possible play around Daze if you see an Island. If you go into a game with a known blue deck go to your discard phase and slowroll unless you have a hand with turn one Therapy.

Chalice should be played over Needle if you expect Landstill and Combo. You need the extra hate against TES and Chalice stops Extirpate from being problematic. Chalice for 0 stops Explosives set to nuke zombies.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Wasnt this obvious when the deck was called Friggorid??

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Never played Friggorid. I had to see for myself.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Never played Friggorid. I had to see for myself.

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Thats legit. If its worth mentioning Ive been a bit pleased with a single copy of Nether Spirit. I dont know if Narcomeoba #5 will make the cut yet though.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Thats legit. If its worth mentioning Ive been a bit pleased with a single copy of Nether Spirit. I dont know if Narcomeoba #5 will make the cut yet though.

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Funny, I have a single Nether Shadow in my list as card #60. Its been honestly the best extra creature Ive tried so far.

EDIT: I dont think you meant Nether Spirit. He would be spectacularly bad here.

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Originally Posted by lolosoon

For SB Strategy, I'll go with Bane's hints :


So, you should go with -1 FKZ, -1 Cephalid Sage, -2 Dread Return for your 4 of's, then -1 Imp, -2 DA if you need more rooms.

I still do have SB Issues with the deck.

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You gave me this tips, but if you have a "perfect" hand, and you could win turn1 or 2, you cant if you board them out, and then you see them playing their hate.. So isn't boarding Ichorids ore something out better? Or 1 Cephalid Saga (i play 2), 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid and 1 Dread Return/Deep Anylisis?

Mvg

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

You gave me this tips, but if you have a "perfect" hand, and you could win turn1 or 2, you cant if you board them out, and then you see them playing their hate.. So isn't boarding Ichorids ore something out better? Or 1 Cephalid Saga (i play 2), 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid and 1 Dread Return/Deep Anylisis?

Mvg

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Not usually, because for game 2 they will be on the play and can drop Leyline or Crypt if they have it (they can drop Leyline on the draw as well), and also without the DR combo you can still "win" on turn 1 or 2 by dredging a bunch then taking their whole hand (or at least the hate/relevent cards) with therapies, so unless your against fast combo and need to race the DR package really is what needs to come out.

Just wanted to say that I just won the last BazaarofWonders tournament in Nürnberg for this year with Ichorid taking home a Mishra's Workshop.
Attendance was about 90 people. I ended up 5-0-1.
I played a very standard, streamlined list (same as Lukas Preus in the Dutch Champs) and was pleased with it all day long. The additional Dredger was just vital all day long.

I played against (in this order):
Dragon Stompy 2:0
Wasteruption (Baseruption with Doran) 2:1
Rw Goblins 2:0
UWb Landstill with Cunning Wishes 1:1
Baseruption 2:1
Rbg Goblins 2:0

I'll link a report when I've come to writing it (probably not before christmas as I have exams to study for). I'll also link additonal information (top8 decklists, precise attendance etc.) when they become available on Germagic.

As for the tournament, everything worked out really, really well. The deck basically did what its supposed to do and works more consistently than most people give it credit for (I had to defend my deckchoice numerous times on the higher tables because people where mouring about how the deck is inconsistent, a glass canon and me a lucksack and such -> not true as I just played smart around the hate and was familiar with my role in the matchups).
The only games I lost where against tripple Leyline of the Void from the Wasteruption guy (I could easily handle the one he played in the 3rd game), against double Engineered Plague and double Meddling Mage against UWb Landstill and against a really slow&horrible draw against the Baseruption guy.
The amazing thing was that no-one boarded in less than 4 cards (most boarding in about 8-10) and that I was still able to just ignore the hate, dredge, dredge, dredge and win, win, win.
I didn't see any Tormod's Crypts but an awefull amount of Extirpates, Meddling Mages, Plagues and Dorans (stops Ichorid). I boarded in Chalice in many games (to stop Extirpate) but never got to cast it at 1.

The rest of the top4 were:

2) Gbw Survival with Rector and no Tarmogoyfs
3) Rbg Goblins
4) UWb Landstill with Cunning Wishes

At worlds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...07/legacydecks , the decks that finished 4-1 or better), there were some Ichorid decks with strange slots:

- Most of the lists didn't play Gemstone's and City's, but Fetch and Duals.. (also 1 list plays 1 other colored dual in the SB for Reverent Silence..)
- Akroma in the SB.. (in 2 builds)
- Ancestor's Chosen in the SB..
- Crippling Fatigue in the SB (i dont think you need this one, i cant name creatures you really have to kill, and you also remove your own Bridges)
- Dakmor Salvage (as a land its to bad, cause you have to wait 1 turn and it only makes Black (only for Imp, and sometimes Therapy).. I think you could better play a Golgari Thug more

And 2 nice things I saw:
- Echoing Truth in the SB (as a 5th bounce, hope I can make room for it)
- Careful Study/Gamble (I didn't tested those 2, but I think they can be very nice, especially the Gamble, so you can play some 1-off cards in the SB, and then search them with Gamble (with a full hand you have to be very unlucky).

Hope some people can explaind the "bad" things I saw, so they turn out to be cards to test :)


Mvg

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Hope some people can explaind the "bad" things I saw, so they turn out to be cards to test :)

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I'll try

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

1Gemstone's and City's, but Fetch and Duals.. (also 1 list plays 1 other colored dual in the SB for Reverent Silence..)
2- Akroma in the SB.. (in 2 builds)
3- Ancestor's Chosen in the SB..
4- Crippling Fatigue in the SB (i dont think you need this one, i cant name creatures you really have to kill, and you also remove your own Bridges)
5- Dakmor Salvage (as a land its to bad, cause you have to wait 1 turn and it only makes Black (only for Imp, and sometimes Therapy).. I think you could better play a Golgari Thug more

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1) In the past here in Germany some players just play a dualbase, because you just need UB preboard, postboard G for Grudge and Ray, so they board a tropical island.
2)+3) They are both alternate Choices for the SB, so you can board Titan/Angel/Akroma/Chosen just to beat your opponents, this choices all are okay, but not good enough to have a place in the maindeck.
Chosen is just a lifegain, so you'll have more time to beat the opponent with Ichorid, Token and so on.
4) Fatigue is just a removal for Meddling Mage, in general you won't need this card.
5) some old lists played this card, it's another dredger, you don't want to play this land, but you can use it to dredge two more cards, but Trolls, Imps and Thugs are enough, so don't play this!

@Gamble: there was a discussion about it in this thread, wasn't it?

[QUOTE=myselves;186369
1) In the past here in Germany some players just play a dualbase, because you just need UB preboard, postboard G for Grudge and Ray, so they board a tropical island.
2)+3) They are both alternate Choices for the SB, so you can board Titan/Angel/Akroma/Chosen just to beat your opponents, this choices all are okay, but not good enough to have a place in the maindeck.
Chosen is just a lifegain, so you'll have more time to beat the opponent with Ichorid, Token and so on.
4) Fatigue is just a removal for Meddling Mage, in general you won't need this card.
5) some old lists played this card, it's another dredger, you don't want to play this land, but you can use it to dredge two more cards, but Trolls, Imps and Thugs are enough, so don't play this!

@Gamble: there was a discussion about it in this thread, wasn't it?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comment :), I was thinking of playing Platinum Angel, so that can in the "big-beast" slot...

And why play duals/fetch over the 5 coler mana lands? You have to "waste" one SB slot (at the tropical island)..
Cause I gonna test Gamble I cant test then.. But is the deckthining from the fetch so good? You play 5 green mana making land (4 fetch and 1 Tropical) and with the 5 colored land you play 8 green mana making land, for the Grudge and Ray. I havent had many problems with the life loss/only 3 times use...

Mvg

I never said, that it was better.
I still think that everybody who have tested this deck for longer time than 3-4 days, now plays the 5c Manabase, for the reasons you've written and so on.

Yea its established that a 5C manabase is better so you can play Ray/Grudge SB and because Reverent Silence sucks, pros just missed the boat on that one.