[OLD] UGr Threshold

I considered Strategic Planning when I started playing Threshold, but then I discovered Predict. Predict sends one card less than S.P. to the graveyard, but it's instant speed and it enables you (generally) to draw an extra card (assuming you don't blindly Predict too often). If you already play Brainstorm, Portent/Serum Visions and Top, I think Predict is a way better choice than Strategic Planning. Props to Kronickler for having the balls to ask the question.

Edit: On a similar note, I'd like to know your impressions on Opt since I haven't tested it yet.

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning

It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.

Kronicler

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If it were an instant, it might be playable. But it aint.

Depending on your build of thresh, opt is either reallllly good, or realllllly bad. If you play Stifles and or Quirion Dryad then Opt is good. Being able to sit to go turn 1: land, go with a stifle and an opt in hand is just sooo good. If they play a fetch, stifle it. GFG. If they don't then Opt EOT. Opt is good with Dryad because you can chain instants and sometimes grow it significantly if you get a nice chain, ex. Opt -> Bstorm -> Bolt. Oh look, Mr. 10 Life Guy, my 4/4 Dryad is now a 7/7 and you just took 3 damage! You lose.

Now if you play predicts in your build, then Opt is trash because it doesn't allow you to set a predict up.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning

It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.

Kronicler

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It's interesting, but it's a sorcery.

If I want to tap 2 lands for one spell during my turn I'm:
Playing Goyf/Werebear
Playing Counterbalance
Playing against solidarity.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

-Assuming he isn't handled, he'll ping the other Thresh player maybe 5-6 times total. Unless you're playing against a compulsive Topper. Even with Counterbalance, there's really only a few spells you need to stop in the mirror.
-Except they're usually bringing in Grips to combat SDT/CB if they think you're boarding it in. Meaning it's not hard to stick one on top and then Balance your Shaman.
If a fast beater for you is a 3/4 with an entirely useless ability in that matchup, then sure. Go-go 3/4 beats.

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LOL, against what should they board Krosan Grip??? Shackles maybe. So what? And my diuscussion is not about Counterbalance vs. BTS. It's about BTS > Fledgling Dragon.

And well, I bet no one of you had ever tried to play BTS. There must be a reason why BTS shashes some face in nowadays.

Like here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=8#place8

or here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=1#place1

or like this:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?...gacy+Open+2007

(Frederic Timmer T8ed, but got a strange SB because they were in a traffic jam and he received a gameloss because his Sb was not complete, so he put in 2 cards from a draft deck).

or here:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10203 (2nd out of 60. That's Oddball btw. who played it for a long time and I also played against him at the German Legacy Open. He also smashed my face in because BTS dodged CB.)

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10099 (3rd out of dunno how much, Frederic again)

Also, that kind of NQGr is even good against counterbalanced Landstill because it gets more pressure on the board quite faster than other NQGs.

That's also the secret in winning mirrormatches, the player who get's more pressure on the table faster wins the game.
Fire/Ice and Shackles can help dealing or racing enemy Tarmogoyfs, and repeal is simply a fucking versatile card, also a very good out against nearly everything (Blood Moon, Counterbalance because CC3 on the stack).

Also, postboard there are a lotmore cards in the CC3 slots. And would you board in Grips just to counter BTS? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Adan

LOL, against what should they board Krosan Grip??? Shackles maybe. So what? And my diuscussion is not about Counterbalance vs. BTS. It's about BTS > Fledgling Dragon.

And well, I bet no one of you had ever tried to play BTS. There must be a reason why BTS shashes some face in nowadays.

Like here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=8#place8

or here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.ph...light=1#place1

or like this:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?...gacy+Open+2007

(Frederic Timmer T8ed, but got a strange SB because they were in a traffic jam and he received a gameloss because his Sb was not complete, so he put in 2 cards from a draft deck).

or here:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10203 (2nd out of 60. That's Oddball btw. who played it for a long time and I also played against him at the German Legacy Open. He also smashed my face in because BTS dodged CB.)

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10099 (3rd out of dunno how much, Frederic again)

Also, that kind of NQGr is even good against counterbalanced Landstill because it gets more pressure on the board quite faster than other NQGs.

That's also the secret in winning mirrormatches, the player who get's more pressure on the table faster wins the game.
Fire/Ice and Shackles can help dealing or racing enemy Tarmogoyfs, and repeal is simply a fucking versatile card, also a very good out against nearly everything (Blood Moon, Counterbalance because CC3 on the stack).

Also, postboard there are a lotmore cards in the CC3 slots. And would you board in Grips just to counter BTS? I don't think so.

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I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

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Originally Posted by Destruction2007

I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

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K, but they can't be good players then.

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Originally Posted by Destruction2007

I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

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Even if the opponent has a Grip on top of his library constantly with SDT, he has to Top the card one down before draw. That's Krosan Grip's window of opportunity.

It's also quite hard to keep a card on top constantly with 7-8 fetchlands. Even if you have enough mana you occasionally want to fetch the other cards away to draw the spells that win the game.

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Originally Posted by Adan

K, but they can't be good players then.

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Actually I believe they were high level legacy players at Gencon. I am not saying that anyone should do that just saying people do SB it in for a 3 cmc card.

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Originally Posted by Destruction2007

Actually I believe they were high level legacy players at Gencon. I am not saying that anyone should do that just saying people do SB it in for a 3 cmc card.

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Te believe something is the result of a lack of knowledge.

Anyways, I won't side in a dead card just to "improve" Counterbalance, but weaken the rest of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Te believe something is the result of a lack of knowledge.

Anyways, I won't side in a dead card just to "improve" Counterbalance, but weaken the rest of the deck.

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I wasn't saying you should. I said believe because I cannot find the article that I read it in. Plus it is a figure of speech.

the best answer to opponents playing krosan grip is to play multiple Counterbalances. Then the best then can do is kill a top.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

the best answer to opponents playing krosan grip is to play multiple Counterbalances. Then the best then can do is kill a top.

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With the amazing Cantrip engine, you can easily replace those destroyed Tops.

First place in a nice little 8-man tournament here tonight. The field was:

Matt with 4c Goyf
Kyle with Inferior Breakfast (Kiki-Jiki kill, no Goyfs)
Erik with Ichorid
Zach with Goblins
Chad with Suicide-ish black (jump knights!)
Michael with GWB Survival
Adam with some sort of terrible Braids-Trinisphere-Tainted Aether prison deck
some guy with a Null Profusion deck

so 3 good decks, 3 mediocre decks, 2 terrible decks. Yeah, that's about right for a small Legacy tournament. Here's my list, in all its weird glory:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Quirion Dryad

4 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 2 Vedalken Shackles

Cards that almost made it into the deck: Serenity, Grunt, Ancient Grudge, Rough/Tumble as a fourth Clasm.

I would have prefered 4 Goyf 0 Dryad and 4 Delta 0 Foothills but as they say, you go to war with the army you've got, not the army you want or might wish to have.

Round one: Zach with Goblins
Game one: I lead by Bolting a Lackey, and swinging with Goyf while getting poked by a Fanatic and a Skirk Prospector. I use my removal to keep the way clear, while adding Goose to the field. When I'm at 14 he has Prospector, Piledriver, Warchief, and a freshly-cast Sharpshooter. He attacks for 11, bringing me to 3. He sacs Piledriver to untap SS and shoots me (2). Then he realizes that if he sacs Prospector to untap and shoot me, he has no way to sac his Warchief to untap for the last point; and if he sacs Warchief to untap his SS, it will have summoning sickness again and be unable to shoot. He is at 4 life. I don't remember how it played out exactly, other than he went with plan A and left me at exactly 1 life, but I won. I was sweating it out; I had thought the game was mine when it was 14-5 and I had two or three guys out and swinging, but he nearly pulled it off.

-4 FoW
-2 Cspell
+3 Clasm
+1 STP
+2 Stifle

Game two: I let him hit me with two Lackeys, which drop a Matron (gets a Piledriver) and a SGC into play. I untap and Clasm them all dead. He Vials in the Piledriver, and I drop Goyf. He gets a Ringleader for Fanatic, Prospector, and Sharpshooter. He gets some of those into play, and I Clasm them all dead too. He can't muster any defense against the large green man after that. There were some shenanigans with gangblocks and Gempalms in here somewhere.

Round two: Michael with Survival
Game one: He leads Temple Garden into BoP, and begins playing Duresses. I use an EE to kill his bird when I notice he hasn't made a second land drop, and he never does get a second land.

-4 Magma Jet
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 EE

Game two: After Duress takes my Shackles, he has a Bop and Xantid, and I get ready to EE them away when he plays a Survival. He taps out to do it though, and I EE it away. He plays a Deed. I play a Dryad but have nothing to grow it with - I have an STP and a Bolt but I don't want to spend them on his crappy 0/1s, so it's slow going for awhile. He plays another Deed, while I get another EE and play it on x=3 and pop it. He fails to use either Deed, letting them die rather than trading his two 0/1s for my Dryad, which is a huge mistake. He is totally manaflooded. I don't think he plays another spell. At one point when he is at 12, I attack with my 4/4 Dryad. He doesn't block, and I double-Bolt him before combat damage to bring him to 6 facing an unblocked 6/6 Dryad. Whoopee!

Round three: Chad with Suicide
Game one: I get a Threshed Mongoose early on and start hitting him with it. Contagion shrinks a Goyf to proportions that can be eaten by a Sarcomancy token, but I land a second Goose and keep swinging for the fences. By the time he gets a Bob+Jitte out, he's too low on life to survive the Bob damage, my creatures, and Sarcomancy's pings.

-4 FoW
+1 Clasm
+2 Shackles
+1 EE

Game two is sad. He mulligans, and I just ruin his shit with my bombs. I Clasm a Sarcomancy token and a Jump Knight. I have a ton of removal, he can't keep a creature on the table. When he plays a Shade with 3 mana open to face my 4/5 Goyf, I untap, play a fifth land, and drop+activate Shackles to take his guy. He Contagions my Goyf down but he can't stop the Mongoose+Shade beats.

I thought the tournament was over, but apparantly people voted for a fourth round so we played a fourth round, against my objections.

Surprise round four: Erik with Ichorid
Game one: I had planned to play a Dryad and Jet it dead to remove his Bridges, but I accidentally Brainstormed and the Dryad got too big. He slowly amasses eight zombie tokens by recurring an Ichorid and letting it die. I am at 12 and have two blockers, so his zombies have exactly enough to swarm me. The very next turn I would have been able to Sleight into EE, killing his tokens and probably winning me the game.

-4 FoW
-2 Cspell
-2 Daze
+3 Clasm
+3 Crypt
+1 STP
+1 EE

This game he has a weird hand. I play an EE, he plays Chain of Vapor on it and then Therapies it away. I think I Plowed an Ichorid here. He does the same to a Crypt two turns later. Meanwhile he's not getting any kind of gas, and a Goyf is hitting him hard. He taps out to play a Narcomeba. I have a Clasm in hand, and I should have Clasmed it dead. I didn't, which let him Chain my 5/6 Goyf and sac Meba to flashback Therapy naming Goyf. He was at 5 life. I curse myself, and we settle in to playing draw-go. I draw STP, land, Bolt, and he finally gets a dredger in the yard. I draw: another Bolt, and simply double-Bolt him dead.

Game three: at some early point he plays Breakthrough, saccing LED in response, while I have a Crypt. I don't know if that was right to do, but whatever, I RFGed like ten cards. He draws and discards 4, flashes back a Deep Analysis, but he doesn't draw anything and now has like 2 cards in hand and 1 land and nothing relevant in the graveyard, so I do him in fast with double Goose.

4-0, 8-1. I had orginally made the deck with black for Confidants but I had yet to use my Tundras for anything much, and I wanted to use them, so I switched to STPs and white. I liked it a lot! It sure gave me a lot of removal. Eight creatures was honestly enough, and I never felt the need for basic lands, even against Goblins, Suicide, and a BW deck I played a fun game against on the side and won 1-0. Basics would mean more if there were Crucible-Wastelock decks going around, or if people played things like PoP, B2B, or Blood Moon, but there aren't and they don't.

I really liked my sideboard this time, which is good because I usually find something to hate about it. The Grips were pretty much useless but they could be good against certain decks which didn't show.

Having played my Oath deck in a few casual games I found that I really enjoyed many of the aspects of Blue. It's funny because I am normally a fan of red based decks. It's not the counterspells that I enjoy the most, but the cantrips that blue offers and gives me control of my deck. I really liked tinkering with my deck to find that land that I need, or that counterspell that I need for that crazy high tide combo deck to stop them.

As it stands now the only things holding me back are some fetchlands, the lack of 4 tropical islands, no stifles and no Forces of Wills. No one in my local areas has Forces so I need to go online to obtain them. However I have accumlated enough jank cards to trade for 4 tropical islands. Stifles should be easy enough to get my hands on.

I guess the questions is which thresh deck I should try and make.

UG, UGR, UGW, UGB, etc.

The current dual lands/fetches/wastelands I have atm are:

4 Taigas, 4 Bayous, 1 Badlands, 4 wooded foothills, 2 wastelands.


Any suggestions are more than welcome.

What are latest lists you guys are playing. I mean do you play Wastelands+Stifles+Counterbalances in Red *****?

Has anyone given any thought to playing 2-3 Wee Dragonauts MB?

Dragononauts fly, pitch to FoW and have good synergy with the multitude of cantrips.

Here is a list that played 3 MB in the pre-gofy era.

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Originally Posted by kabal

Has anyone given any thought to playing 2-3 Wee Dragonauts MB?

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In the pre-Tarmogoyf era, a friend of mine used to play a Wee-Dragonauts based Ugr Aggro-Control Deck which was pretty efficient. Although it resembles more to a real Gro deck than to the modern NQG archetype, I think it deserves some credit.

Here's a link to his deck in one of the last incarnations.

It uses Intuition an incredible tutor which either spells 'You win the game' fetching 3 Lava Darts when you have Wee Dragonauts or Quirion Dryad out or just gets you whatever you need like additional critters or card draw in the form of Accumulated Knowledge.
The thing I never felt good about in his list are the Grim Lavamancers which are strong but don't really fit into the concept of the deck.
In his list, I'd replace the 2 Misdirections, 1 Lava Dart and the 4 Grim Lavamancers with some assortment of additional Berserks (he only owned one) and 4 Tarmogoyfs.
Also, you'd want to replace the 4 Sleight of Hands with 4 Ponders when Lorwyn becomes legal.

I actually think burning tree-shaman is very efficient I tested shaman out alot as well in ugr threshold. The reason why I think tree-shaman is so efficient is because it makes UGR threshold have a faster clock as well as it's not effected by any graveyard hate. Also burning tree-shaman can win you games you should not have via shaman's ability through my experience.

I'll stick to Fledgling Dragon. 2 Turn clock > shitty 3/4 in Goyf format...

What SB do you guys run?

Is Krosan Grip needed?

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Originally Posted by Sigar

What SB do you guys run?

Is Krosan Grip needed?

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I believe Krosan Grip is still needed in the board of threshold. In the tournaments that I usually play it I do run into enchantress, aluren, and landstill.

If your metagame doesn't warrant you running Grip, then don't. The tournaments up here in the Northeast Krosan Grip is almost necessary to have at least a 2 of in the board.

If you're paying over 2 mana for a creature, that creature needs to beat Goyf. Based on this principle, Serendib Efreet, Burning-Tree Shaman, and probably Sea Drake are all incorrect, and pretty much inferior to Worldly Tutor-for-Tarmogoyf*.

*which I also would not recommend.

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

Sea Drake is incredibly good. In the mirror or against any other #random goyf-player both will draw tarmogoyfs and then the board is stalled. then u play sea drake and? it`s gg! so i think drake is the right way to go if u don`t want to play ToD in the maindeck.

Greetings,
NQN

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Originally Posted by Sigar

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

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Counterbalance, Blood Moon, the usual...

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Originally Posted by MattH

If you're paying over 2 mana for a creature, that creature needs to beat Goyf. Based on this principle, Serendib Efreet, Burning-Tree Shaman, and probably Sea Drake are all incorrect, and pretty much inferior to Worldly Tutor-for-Tarmogoyf*.

*which I also would not recommend.

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Respectfully, I disagree in regards to Drake/Efreet. Efreet hurts and Drake requires the land investment, however a 3 mana 3/4 is a threat that breaks the Goyf-stalemate. Is Fledgling Dragon a better choice? Probably. That said, Drakes and Efreets are FoW-pitching threats that break a goyf-mate, so they cannot be totally wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sigar

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

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Instead? No way. Mongoose is just wayyyy too good to not run him. But running dryad along side mongoose is a viable stratagy. If you build your deck with the right cantrips (aka not portent or SDT) then he can grow really fast, and in general a dryad can easily break goyf-mates.

Kronicler

I agree, Mongoose is really strong. I have spent the day testing, and I don't think Dryad is good enough. It's only good if you can get it on the table early on, and it's a terrible draw mid-late game. I would run either Dragon or Werebear as the 3rd creature.

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Originally Posted by Sigar

I agree, Mongoose is really strong. I have spent the day testing, and I don't think Dryad is good enough. It's only good if you can get it on the table early on, and it's a terrible draw mid-late game. I would run either Dragon or Werebear as the 3rd creature.

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I believe Dryad is very strong in threshold, but you have to run a lot of cantrips that can chain together. This is why a lot of builds at Gen Con ran opt, since you can easily find another cantrip to cast. Also, to maximize the effectiveness of the dryad's, you must run the full set of 4. I agree that dryad is not that good mid to late game, but the main reason to run him is so he becomes a big creature fast which helps threshold wins so many games.

Personally, I can't wait until Ponder becomes legal, because it will be really good in threshold. A nice compliment to portent if you decide to run both.

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Originally Posted by Sigar

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

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I haven't tried it but it doesn't seem like a good call. Goose is great against Threads of Disloyalty, pin-point creature removal/control in general and bounce. Many decks need to go out of their way to cast EE@1 to get rid of Goose.

I used to run Goyf-Goose-Dryad for a while, but right now I'm only playing 8 creatures (Goyf-Goose) and I like it a lot.

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Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel

Respectfully, I disagree in regards to Drake/Efreet. Efreet hurts and Drake requires the land investment, however a 3 mana 3/4 is a threat that breaks the Goyf-stalemate. Is Fledgling Dragon a better choice? Probably. That said, Drakes and Efreets are FoW-pitching threats that break a goyf-mate, so they cannot be totally wrong.

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How does BTS break a Goyf stalemate?

@NQN: Drake has 3 toughness and we're talking about a matchup with Lightning Bolts. That rules it out for me.

I actually suspect the deck needs no finisher at all. I have gotten by just fine on 8 creatures so far. I might want one large finisher, and since I also play four colors it would probably be Enforcer. I don't really want a lot of creatures except against board control decks.

He's talking about Serendib Efreet.

I have been running 8 creatures, as well as 2-3 maindeck Threads of Disloyality. Of course, this is a meta choice, but if you're in a heavy aggro-control meta, Threads act as removal for the opponent's Goyf, as well as creatures (Tarmogoyf) number 9-11. This has won me quite some games. There are other creatures to get as well, such as: Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Dryad, Werebear, Serra Avenger, Nantuko Shade, and so on.

At worst, it pitches to Force of Will, but I found Threads of Disloyality to be one hell of an addition to the deck. Of course, it's strenghth is not as great if you're facing combo, but this is already a positive matchup.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

He's talking about Serendib Efreet.

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Oh, right. That's what I get for not reading carefully enough.

@MattH: If he kills your drake with a Bolt, your can kill his goyf with goyf block+bolt so u still have the advantage.
Mfg jan

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Originally Posted by NQN

@MattH: If he kills your drake with a Bolt, your can kill his goyf with goyf block+bolt so u still have the advantage.
Mfg jan

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But NQG loves it's land drops. I personally dont think Sea Drakes are so great unless you guys decide to run Winter Orbs.

Dont forget that at the Prelims, both Hatfields made Top 4.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Dont forget that at the Prelims, both Hatfields made Top 4.

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I didn't know that both of them made top4; congrats to them both :)

I'll add those lists then. Thanks for the info Anti.

The Edit function seems to crap out at this moment, I'll do the changes as soon as it works.

Don't forgot ....

Top 5 German Legacy Open 2007 - 175 players

NQGr - Frederic Timmer

3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Predict
2 Repeal
4 Serum Visions

2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Deepcavern Imp
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flowstone Embrace