[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

@Deviant
What do you think about the Punishing Jund matchup?
Last tourney I managed to win 2-1, but only because he stumbled on mana twice.
Other than that it seemed very rough.

How should we approach this matchup, and how would you side?

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I would have to admit that I should probably test that mu a lot more. I have only ran into it a few times (which is surprising really)
but I would do here what I usually do: dazes and forces out, removals and a few charms in (kills bob and counters decay) push drs advantage, this lets you control the goyfs somewhat, makes your lilianas better their worse.
Never waste randomly, always have a plan with them - are you soft to grove-fire or hymn/liiana?
Avoid getting key brainstorms reb'd. They seem to like these and most bring them in.
Try to protect stalker from discard and edicts. (Duh)
Mana denial has been a good starting point for me, as we play virtually more wastes than they do, and when they go for basics it makes it easier to color-screw them.
I doubt there is a miracle-cure for the jund mu, sniff out the weak side of their draw and exploit that. Eventually they should out-grind us. Hopefully we stick a goyf or a stalker before they recover.

The sideboard I've been testing as of late:

3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Envelop is arguably better than Thoughtseize against many of the SnT decks, as they are typically siding into Leyline of Sanctity. Against UWx control variants, its power is about equal -- being able to counter a timely Entreat the Angels or Terminus is often better than being able to selectively discard something, especially as these games tend to go long. I would also bring it in against BUG Control, as you can use it to counter Ancestral Visions and any discard spells. I will admit that Thoughtseize is better against Stoneforge Mystic decks, but you should be able to handle these with the rest of the deck.

The Surgical takes the place of the second Grafdigger's Cage, as I predict an upswing of Loam engine decks and it's also somewhat useful against combo. I feel that it's worthwhile to play at least two graveyard hate slots in addition to the maindeck DRS, simply because you never know what you might get paired against.

Maelstrom Pulse could be Krosan Grip, but I just like the versatility better.

I am considering adding some sort of Red mana source in order to gain access to REB/Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge. The decks where you would bringing these spells in typically don't run Wasteland, and their power is undeniable. The question is if the Volcanic/Badlands should take the place of the 9th fetchland, or perhaps the 4th Underground Sea.

I am going to give this deck a whirl at a relatively small local tournament this weekend. My two flex slots are a Lili and a Library.

I am undecided on the last sideboard card:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

My expected meta is a few Delver decks (at least a RUG and a RWU), a BWG Rock (with Loxodon Smiters), a Reanimater deck (probably Tin Fins), at least 1 Elves deck, Goblins, a Sneak and Show and a NO Bug deck. There will probably be a few more decks, but those are the few I have knowledge of. What would you use that last slot for? Another Lili?

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

t I just ignore it and hope to dodge it. This has worked for me so far. Anyways, what do you put in your Graveyard hate slots Arcadia? Right now I only have Grafdigger's Cage but I may up the graveyard hate in my board if these loam decks start to show up more.

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I think hoping to dodge it is ok, I prefere not to do it and have some less slots in my SB. I run 2 surgicals and 1 Tormod. I tried Nihil Spellbomb instead of Tormod's Crypt, but as generally I don't sideboard Spellbomb unless I need it, I changed to Tormod because of the cost. Spellbomb is better in case you want to bring it against TES or rug, but I'm not doing so.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Thats why you run 2 tombstalkers. What are you replacing it with?

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In the flex slots I have 1 dismember and 1 Sylvan library. Instead of the tombstalkers I have 2 disfigures, which win games in a more predictable way :wink:

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

Instead of the tombstalkers I have 2 disfigures, which win games in a more predictable way :wink:

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You have no idea how much i want to squeeze in disfigures in the decklist... Right now i'm leaning to play one Disfigure and one SL in the flex spot :eek:

- L

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Originally Posted by Looooooooo

You have no idea how much i want to squeeze in disfigures in the decklist... Right now i'm leaning to play one Disfigure and one SL in the flex spot :eek:

- L

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If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

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Good catch!
Don't know why this doesn't come to my mind, i've already seen it in some lists...

- L

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

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+1. Even though it sucks taking four to the head to kill a T1 Mom when it comes up, it's remedied by the fact that Dismember is more flexible than Disfigure. I run 1 Library, 1 Dismember MD and I'm very happy with that. I've been meaning to try 1 Library, 1 Liliana, but haven't gotten around to that yet.

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

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I think running extirpate or extraction would be a valuable tool. If you have time I would wait to see what kind of loam decks shape up in the meta game before you make that call. I like surgical more for TA since it allows you to do what the deck does best, pressure while creating tempo. However as you stated you need to worry about cycle lands. SCG isn't coming to NJ till February so I have a little bit of time to decide what the most valuable GY hate I will need.

(This insight is created by theory and not actual play testing. I myself am a Shardless player and have played little TA. I would imagine that playing the free spell while continuously disrupting them is valuable.)

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Originally Posted by Darkness

I think running extirpate or extraction would be a valuable tool. If you have time I would wait to see what kind of loam decks shape up in the meta game before you make that call. I like surgical more for TA since it allows you to do what the deck does best, pressure while creating tempo. However as you stated you need to worry about cycle lands. SCG isn't coming to NJ till February so I have a little bit of time to decide what the most valuable GY hate I will need.

(This insight is created by theory and not actual play testing. I myself am a Shardless player and have played little TA. I would imagine that playing the free spell while continuously disrupting them is valuable.)

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Well, I only have about two weeks between now and SCG Columbus. That gives me one Open worth of data. Wish I had more time to see how the meta shapes up but whatever happens at SCG Orlando will influence how I construct my sb probably. But you are correct that surgical is better than extirpate from a theory perspective. I think if people netdeck the jund depths deck into oblivion I'll stick with surgical since that loam deck in particular doesn't run any cycle lands.

Played at a local tournament last night with "The List," Liliana and Library.

SB:
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
1Vendillion Clique
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Round 1: 43 Lands

Game 1: He stabilizes at four life behind 2 Maze of Ith's, a Tabernacle, and Life from the Wastland lock.
Game 2: I begin by Wastlanding his Grove of the Burnwillows and Hymning a Crucible of Worlds out of his hand. He never finds loam but I don't have any pressure. He is still in it for a while and I ultimate Liliana twice!
Game 3: We don't have much time for game 3 and Lands isn't known for its speedy wins so the round is a draw.

0-0-1

Round 2: Painted Stone

Game 1: I Force of Will his first moon effect and he walks Goblin Welder into my Daze. Followed that with Hymn to tourach and the game is mine.
Game 2: He goes for the tried and true Blood Moon turn one. I don't scoop cuz I have a Deathrite Shaman. Then he played revoker and names Shaman. OK now I'll scoop.
Game 3: Is a real grind fest. I counter, Decay, and disfigure multiple moon effects but he gets Welder and an Ensnaring bridge out. He then proceeds to Incinerate me to death with Jaya Ballard Task Mage! Man this format is crazy.

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Round 3: Painted Stone

Game 1: So apparently I did something evil to deserve all these awful matchups. Game one he Moons me T2 with mana to back up for Daze.
Game 2: I daze his first moon effect and he plays top but scoops when he finds no lands in the top three. I had already Wasted his City of Traitors.
Game 3: I keep a hand with pierce and Abrupt decay and Shaman. I hold my breath since I'm on the draw. He goes Turn 1 Mountain... Top. YES! I get a Shaman and a Goyf in play and Spell Piece/Abrupt Decay everything he has.


So. Bugger the freakin unlucky matchups. But Painter is not unbeatable. A little luck is required of course. Lands is not a popular deck but any deck with Punishing Fire is difficult since we rely so much on Shaman.

There you go! Any questions feel free to ask!

I know you guys have heavily tested this deck, and I am new to it. But what is everyones opinion about cutting one underground sea, for the 4th green source, either bayou or trop.

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

I know you guys have heavily tested this deck, and I am new to it. But what is everyones opinion about cutting one underground sea, for the 4th green source, either bayou or trop.

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Not needed. The fetching priority tends to be Underground -> Bayou -> Tropical. You want to maximize the possibility of opening up with Underground Sea as your only Dual; getting stuck with Tropical or Bayou is often going to cause problems with casting either Daze or Hymn. The only variation commonly suggested is going for 2 Tropical/1 Bayou IF you're going with the TNN/Thoughtseize list, otherwise 2 Bayou/1 Trop is superior.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

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IMO it is not worth. Keeping up a a black mana to prevent a loam for wasteland or EOT Entomb into X into I die is going to slow you down quite a lot. I'd use GY hate to survive rather than to cut their cute mid-game engine.

Sometimes it's even better if they use loam. Some (bad) loam players start dredging and dredging and not doing anything :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

IMO it is not worth. Keeping up a a black mana to prevent a loam for wasteland or EOT Entomb into X into I die is going to slow you down quite a lot. I'd use GY hate to survive rather than to cut their cute mid-game engine.

Sometimes it's even better if they use loam. Some (bad) loam players start dredging and dredging and not doing anything :laugh:

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Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

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It doesn't actually help that much vs Punishing Fire. If they have an untapped Grove of the Burnwillows and you Extirpate one, they can just tap the Grove as it is a mana ability, and doesn't use the stack, which causes the triggered ability on Punishing Fire to trigger and be placed on the stack above the Extirpate.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

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True...I haven't seen a punishing fire in ages (in my meta), so I didn't think about it. But last times I played against something with p fire, I decided not to SB in GY hate, as with wastelands I could keep them controlled most of the times and I didn't have space to SB it in. But it was a jund (I think) and it didn't have loams.

I think testing would be better feedback than theorizing about Surgical / Extraction.

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Originally Posted by Thorhammer

He then proceeds to Incinerate me to death with Jaya Ballard Task Mage! Man this format is crazy.

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Screw Delver, there's a new queen in town!

Also just want to reiterate the previous point about Extirpate Vs Punishing Grove. Surgical is free, Split Second doesn't do anything.

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Originally Posted by L0cke

It doesn't actually help that much vs Punishing Fire. If they have an untapped Grove of the Burnwillows and you Extirpate one, they can just tap the Grove as it is a mana ability, and doesn't use the stack, which causes the triggered ability on Punishing Fire to trigger and be placed on the stack above the Extirpate.

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True, but they cannot counter or play anything else to stop Extirpate.
But as you say against double or triple Grove -if they play well- neither should work.