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I'd play Extirpate if I had it! O-ring is a decent idea vs the Show and Tell decks, but should it just be Thalia? Also, doesn't Teeg knock the socks of Show and Tell decks? Stops Sneak Attack and Petals of InsightQuote:
Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
@mirri: interesting choice for thalia, your correct thalia hinders the "alternate cost of the spell via omni" but i believe omni-tell runs grapeshot/pyroclasm in the wish board w/c eventually can kill our thalia, just my observation :smile:, But back in my head she is really interesting add on our sb hmmm maybe 2 o-ring/1 thalia split do burn decks hurts your meta? if not i think 2 o-ring, 2 thalia, -1 finks, what do you think?
Finks destroys RUG, in addition to making life very difficult for Burn and U/R Delver. I can't cut it. I think maybe cutting 2 Diabolic for 2 Thalia works. Improves Show and X MUs while also helping vs combo decksQuote:
Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
@mirri: i think thats fine also edict for thalia, we love to hear some reports from you w/ your new sb conguration :smile: and your mox diamonds :smile:. Atm i only have 1 access against burn w/c is warmth in my e-tutor sb, not sufficient against burn archytpes :(
To be honest, having only 1x Finks in the SB can be kinda rough. However, he just does SO much for the cause that I've found it to be the best option (yea, he doesn't hold off a full team of dudes the way Timely Reinforcement does, but that is a rare situation)Quote:
Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
@mirri: even at 1 finks i know you run GSZ so this single finks comes in handy and i see your point having it in RUG/UR that is eventually a good blocker for guides, mongoose, goyf and netting +2 life from there. Atm in our local meta burn decks doesnt mobilize in big numbers so warmth will still in my 75 but i love to use the finks maybe if i move away from sb tutor 2 finks will be sleeve in i guess, time will tell :smile:
Btw when decay comes up what will be your list from there?
Seems a bit dated.Quote:
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
2 Krosan Grip <-- OmniTell ballbuster
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
Your Miracles hate.
2 Engineered Explosives
Your RUG and Maverick hate, but I think just play Abrupt seems fine when it comes out.
2 Timely Reinforcements
RUG/Burn Hate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
Gravehate and Combohate
You could also shave numbers to fit 2-3 Thalia in. I'm not going to run Thalia quite yet since I run a lot more spells, but I think you could cut your EE's and a random for 3 Thalia, or just EE for 2 Thalia.
-Matt
KGrip doesn't stop Omni -> Gristle or EmrakulQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I guess Timely is viable, as 3 critters carries equipment as well as a dude who lives twice.
Two copies of all these things seems pretty slim! Ever feel that you just don't draw your hate with those numbers?
I really think the question we need to ask ourselves is this: how does Miracles or Miracle-Blade, since we'll most likely encounter both, win the game?
Terminus is by far their best card, allowing them to clear the board for W. Other board control cards lock creatures out, or prevent you from casting relevant creatures. You can't gain board presence to kill them when they're constantly sweeping.
They also play the long game better than pretty much anyone, searching for the one Entreat the Angels to ensure victory. So, how do we deal with this?
Turning off their card manipulation and advantage engines could be one way. Chains of Mephistopheles is one way to change this, but it still doesn't stop them from casting Terminus in any way.
Choke and Gaddock Teeg seem to be the right direction. The deck is SO focused on removing creatures that turning off their mana becomes huge. The stability of their manabase is a bit of a problem, but if you can land a Choke, that seems very good.
Another issue is that there Counterbalance curve is excellent. A nice amount of one drops, shy on two drops, but 2-4 of each 3,4, and 5 drops, making it VERY difficult to push through relevant removal in the late game. Since they have so many 3's (Cliques, Shackles, possibly Crucible or Swords), Krosan Grip might not be relevant enough. The Miracles player I played against floated 3 on the top of his deck for infinite to combat Knight, Choke, Pulse, and more importantly, Grip.
This deck is playing everything against creatures, so I don't think overloading the board with creatures is the right way to go. Taxing them with Thalia is definitely a strategy for some, 100%. I may go back on my word and at least give it a try, but I'd rather not choose creature based options due to the dedicated hate this deck has of creature based interaction. I also think Sylvan Library and Top become essential in this matchup. Card selection allows them to Miracle into oblivion, so we need the same power. We need to be playing 8 card advantage slots (Confidant, Top, Library, Arena, etc.) to keep up with Brainstorm, Jace, Top, etc.
To push through our stuff, I think targeted discard is going to be 100% required, especially since we have no other way to interact. Moving to 8-10 slots of discard between the main and board is definitely a good thing and overlaps in the Omni-Tell matchup. Abrupt Decay also seems to be a great answer to the Counterbalance plague of that deck, so I'd almost want to run more Decay if possible.
As well, I think Planeswalkers may be the answer, especially those that generate tokens. Elspeth and Garruk seem like fine additions, and even possibly sideboard material against this deck. Hopefully we push through with discard and waste their counters before dropping something they cannot remove. I don't think Liliana is where I personally want to be against this deck, since they'll just outdraw you. The casting cost and token generation means they can't just sweep the board, they have to remove your guys, and how are they doing that? Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere, perhaps, but definitely not EE for Sunburst = 4.
Running an additional Garruk or Elspeth in the side might not be a bad idea. Sure Gaddock Teeg doesn't want to play nice here, but does that matter? They'll Swords him eventually, so why not back up the guy who buys you time with something they'll have more trouble removing?
In summation, our creatures are going to be good, but also possibly less effective. We may need to switch to permanents that aren't creatures to try to lock them out of their own game. Destroying Counterbalance is 100% key to this situation, as is keeping up with their card advantage.
Regarding the discussion with Mox Diamond, the problem with Mox is two-fold. The first reason I moved away from it was the usefulness. We're running MANY one drops, and we have good things we're going on turn 1. Sure, they're not broken things, but they're very solid. Mucking a land may pump Knight, I'll agree, but the idea of being behind a land next turn doesn't interest me as much. The second reason is the late game issue. Essentially, Mox becomes another "land" draw off of a Sylvan Library or Top. It's not a card that's actually doing anything in the Miracles matchup. Beyond the first few turns, it's dead. This is not to say discard isn't a dead-er card later in the game, but at least with discard, I can take a look at his hand to try to push through a possible spell/creature to attempt to apply pressure. Mox does neither of these.
We run a decent manabase with 23-24 lands. We can support 2-3 Mox, but the question is, should we? Is it explosive enough for the times we get it with enough other land in hand (ideally, a Mox hand will have 2-3 land, which means the hand is already 3/7 to 4/7 taken up by the Mox combination) versus the times it becomes a dead card (opening a Mox + land instead of 2 land opener, or drawing it later)?
-Matt
I know K-Grip doesn't, but what does? Do you have a better answer? You're never going to get a chance to O-ring if they Emrakul, and Gristle is going to draw them 7-14. you're hoping they doing something else.Quote:
KGrip doesn't stop Omni -> Gristle or Emrakul
I guess Timely is viable, as 3 critters carries equipment as well as a dude who lives twice.
Two copies of all these things seems pretty slim! Ever feel that you just don't draw your hate with those numbers?
Timely has been excellent, do not discount it yet :P
Sometimes I don't draw my hate cards in numbers, but it really depends what you're after. We could have a sideboard of five different 3-of's, but what would those be?
3 Grave hate (surgical)
4-6 Miracles
3 Maverick
2 RUG/Burn/Garbage
1-3 Random
Sure, the actual pieces might be 1-3 of's, but you have to look at the overall slot it fits into. What is this sideboard card doing? Why is it there? Most of the time you're complementing your arsenal with slightly different tools as opposed to ball0busting blowout plays, since we basically don't have many answers like that in BWG. Sure, Dread of Night is a nut-kick, but not a relevant nut-kick at the moment. You're mostly adding more cards against certain matchups while removing others.
-Matt
Little confused by the counterbalance for grip comment, it was my understanding that counterbalance cannot counter grip because no spells or abilities can be put on the stack until it resolves. Is that not the case?
It's no spells and activated abilities. Counterbalance's ability is a triggered one.
How Split Second works is that players can't put spells or abilities on the stack, but cards still trigger. So, even though a player can't use Top to fix their top 3, CB still triggers. If a CB player is expecting Kgrip, often times they'll just leave a 3 drop on top for Kgrips and then just Top in response to any other spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Forlorn Egoist
I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups.
I think I'm going to try this SB. Improves my combo and Show and X MUs, while retaining game against aggro decks, control decks, and randomness. Thoughts?
4 Surgical
2 Teeg
3 EE
2 Timely
2 Choke
2 Thalia
And thats why abrupt decay will replace every krosan grip in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
This is true, especially regarding Counterbalance. But, Grip hits Batterskull.
-Matt
Even though it's triggered, it's still considered an "ability". Hence CB cannot counter Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister M.
Mister M was explaining how KGrip can get countered by CBalance, assuming CMC 3 on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels
Anyways, did anyone look at the hypothetical list I posted within the last page or two? With the aggro base (ie: not sdematt's list), I dropped Stoneforge to try Thalia. I'm not sure how it would test, but maybe we can tweak it before I take it for a spin?
Nice! the plan is pretty much basic extraction on stp and land a gaddock teeg and its game. Since i dont have teeg MB nor SB my game plan is to rape his hand by hymns, thoughtseize, liliana well that proves me it is a good plan i played several matches against them and a turn 1 hymn via mox against them is really good!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
@your new sb: i think thats fine well rounded fighting aggro, control, GY, combo based decks
I think I might try replacing 1 Diamond with the Tracker from the board which would give me an extra SB slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
The only "good" answers that I can think of would be O.Ring (only bad if they drop Griselbrand since it takes Omni before they can cast Emrakul or anything else at Sorcery speed) or maybe Rule of Law/Curse of ExhaustionQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt