Miracle Control

Maybe I poorly expressed myself : my starting hands don't regularly contain 1 land, but it happens sometimes and when it does, only if I have a ponder or a Top, i'm more willing to keep, knowing I'll have way to find some others. That said ; it also depends on the opponent's deck. Of course, I won't consider a "1 land-hand", even with a ponder, against a RUG/UWR Delver since i know that the fetch and/or the ponder are not likely to get through the counter-wall.

So far, it seems to work. Maybe I did not play Joe Losset's build enough to be comfortable with it, but I notice that 4 ponder is a great tool when it comes to consistency.

Regards,

Spaker

Maverick is, generally, an easy matchup because of Pyroclasm. You don't play any.

Anyway after the print of Toxic Deluge make me consider the drop the red splash for a black one.

Notion Thief is so strong against anything that plays blue and combo.
Now there's deluge which is > than Pyroclasm because it allows us to kill Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis

it also doesn't fear Mother of Runes and eventually kills Gaddok Teeg too..

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Originally Posted by Poron

Maverick is, generally, an easy matchup because of Pyroclasm. You don't play any.

Anyway after the print of Toxic Deluge make me consider the drop the red splash for a black one.

Notion Thief is so strong against anything that plays blue and combo.
Now there's deluge which is > than Pyroclasm because it allows us to kill Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis

it also doesn't fear Mother of Runes and eventually kills Gaddok Teeg too..

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I like this logic. You can also start running some pinpoint discard ala Thoughtseize in place of REBs to shore up Combo MUs... which is ofc good with Snapcaster, if you are running him (taking a leaf out of Esperblade here).

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

Not to mention Deluge is 3cmc for CB vs TNN... redundancy, much? I really like it.

What we really have to consider is how much REBs matter to us, because as I see it they are the #1 reason to be running Red.

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Originally Posted by MrShine

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

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You mean in response to the first Glimpse trigger, right? :P
Otherwise, they just won't cast any creatures.

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Originally Posted by MrShine

I like this logic. You can also start running some pinpoint discard ala Thoughtseize in place of REBs to shore up Combo MUs... which is ofc good with Snapcaster, if you are running him (taking a leaf out of Esperblade here).

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

Not to mention Deluge is 3cmc for CB vs TNN... redundancy, much? I really like it.

What we really have to consider is how much REBs matter to us, because as I see it they are the #1 reason to be running Red.

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I like Toxic Deluge, but REB is definitely the reason we are in red. I'm not sold on discard improving our already good combo matches, so that's not real upside to me.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I like Toxic Deluge, but REB is definitely the reason we are in red. I'm not sold on discard improving our already good combo matches, so that's not real upside to me.

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I see it more as incidental upside to go along with running Deluge. We bring in REBs vs combo now, so Discard would be the black version's REBs, while Deluge replaces Pyroclasm. Its worth noting that Discard also plays the same role as REBs in the control matches; preventing scary threats from hitting the board. It's also is more flexible against the non U decks, obviously.

@ Ziggy - Its more just to see the look on their faces... but yeah, in response to the first trigger (lets hope it was off a visionary!) would be best. It is definitely totally niche, but sometimes magic is fun, right? /griefing

I've tested a little against True-Name Nemesis and while it's pretty good, it isn't really backbreaking. It seems like it is most threatening coming out of the Delver decks since they are also pressuring our mana base. Against the more midranged Nemesis decks, you have the option to race with an Entreat that they have few ways of stopping. Has anyone else had similar results?

yes, if Elves keep on getting popular, Notion Thief can become a SB bomb. It's out the reach of Abrupt Decay too..

that way you gain those 4-5 turns that let you swype the board for your Entreat.

Jace is rather out of the league because of their horde

oooops, I forgot Perish overall..

Is Perish really better than just playing Toxic Deluge? I mean, it hits Goyfs better, but Deluge hits tonnes of other stuff, and can be used against Sneak Attack in a seriously dire situation. (Not sure if you'd have to stoop that low in all honesty.)

Yes, Deluge is definitly better. For fatties we have Terminus and StP

Deluge hits indestructible stuff as well, and hits non-green creatures. You know, Death and Taxes, Goblins, Merfolk, etc.

-Matt

do we have a winner? what else might we add in the black splash?

Bitterblossom? (2cc Elspeth)

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Originally Posted by Poron

do we have a winner? what else might we add in the black splash?

Bitterblossom? (2cc Elspeth)

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Baleful Strix (It's seriously great, trust me!)

awful sinergy with both Terminus and Deluge (we'd play 6-7 in our 75)

Bitterblossom looks rather antisynergic either...

mmm

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Baleful Strix (It's seriously great, trust me!)

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Deluge is over-rated in Miracle. Your life total should be spent on fetchland and taking early beats. Why are we wasting life on Deluge when you could just play Engineered Plague?

Options are:
Plague
Notion Thief
Baleful Strix
Inquisition/Duress... discard.

Oarsman mentioned an interesting point about Miracle vs TNN: Miracle is the only deck offering permanents that actually pose threats to opponent such that he/she might actually spend targeted removal on, which is a great Misdirection Target for Miracle onto TNN, as well as offering mass creature removal.

Hence, comparing to other Legacy decks, Miracle has the least of worries, I don't understand all the buzz in the previous pages. Ever since I personally started running Misdirection in either MD/SB, I have not considered otherwise. I would expect a lot more of Misdirecting Pyro/REB/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay from CB/Clique onto TNN.

Misdirection is an heavy one..

card disadvantage and very situational.. it would require to have a TNN already in game either, to be really cool..

very situational. My answear to Abrupt Decay is Karakas (Clique) and Moat, in place of CB/RiP (usually they have no other removal apart from AD)

they I start to build a Jace/Entreat kill. In BUG matchup Deluge would be very useful too (Deathrite, Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant)

I really like the idea of attempting to resolve a CB, then Misdirecting a REB onto a TNN. That feels like value.

Still, we don't care about TNN. I play 3 Terminus and a Verdict, and have the ability to counter it for days with CB and such. I can race it with Clique, and finish them with Angels. Spell Pierce and pitch Spells ensure that I can resolve these things. I could see them boarding it out if they have sufficient threats elsewhere, but I doubt they do and so are stuck with a Creature that is probe to even more cards out of the board.

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Originally Posted by lambert101

@Einherjer

I am liking your updated list. Some questions though.

1. Why not blood moon over 2 red elemental blast?
2. The 1 of mountain looks smooth, but how do you side it in? Over an island?
3. Has the snapcaster mage - RIP ratio been an issue?
4 .Are the 3 supreme verdicts for ruse of TNN?

Thanks for the help.

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I do not like Blood Moon in this version of Miracles. Other than that Red Elemental Blast serves other purposes.
The Mountain is there for the tempo-MU. I wanna keep up REB without having to play around Stifle and/or Wasteland.
Nah, it's been fine this way - just know what you need to play when and you should be fine.
Yeah, Verdicts are the direct replacements for the now outdated Pyroclasm in order to deal with Nemesis. (and obv. everything else too)


@Everybody...

Yeah...good idea... let's just play cards like Deluge + Bitterblossom ... We always have a high life total - so we can totally use this as a resource in order to exploit the undenieable upsides of this cards... In addition to this we get improvements to REB aswell - as Thoughtseize handles all the stuff too.... And yeah...Vindicate and stuff....Oh and if we have problems with creatures... Baleful Strix.. sure....


NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT

I was under the impression we already had this? Black is no sufficient replacement of red and never in god's name for cards like Strix or Blossom. (and most likely not for Deluge too....) - I still fail to see any serious upsides of black that do not cut on all the advantages of red... like... just...stop... we've had this already.

Greetings

Is True Name Nemesis a problem ...
just play Humility and/or Moat

ok Blossom and Strix are bad, ok.

But Notion Thief and Deluge looks rather big pieces.

Deluge > Pyroclasm (imho)

and the only other (not small) reason why we run red is REB.

Isn't Thief + Discards worth similar? Don't know.

By the way, how many Pyroclasm do you play, Einherjer?