Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slikwilly
We run so much thinning and so many tutors I really don't get too worked up over the extra card. Yeah, the percentages favor 60 but I don't think it's that cut and dry. Hell, which card is "the 61st?" I look at my list and I'll be damned if I see a card that should go. This is a 'problem' I really only have w/ Nic Fit though.
I'm afraid this doesn't go in favor of the 61 card camp. With so much deck thinning, that 1 in 600 game shrinks rather fast. Considering how Nic Fit isn't exactly like most other Legacy decks and how games usualy go long and our library grows small, I would guess that something along the lines of 1 out of 200 is more accurate. I can't give you numbers because I don't exactly know how to quantify that but I can give you a reasonable explanation as to why 1 out of 200 or 1 out of 1000 isn't exactly the most relevant statistic in the way that, I assume, you intended it. Take this into consideration:
If a 61st card affects the consistency of the rest of your deck in a way that makes you lose 1 match out of 600, in order for the 61st card to have an effect greater than this statistic is to assume that the card is a major component of the deck (AKA: Teeg in GB Nic Fit as a MD vs. SB card) because every card has a purpose. But here is not the issue at hand. The 61st card is NOT a silver bullet or a redundantly good card because the Nic Fit core is narrow, it's removal suite is maleable, and the creature base is toolbox oriented (because it isn't a highlander deck). While it may often be seen as card X, the 61st card is most often card Y: a 3rd Pulse, 4th Pulse, 3rd Thoughtseize/IB, or a 4th Top even. The reality is that most Nic Fit decks have plenty of room to work with but the deck-builder refuses to see it because some number changes are outside of their comfort zone or simply not part of their established convention of Nic Fit deck construction.
So, if I go back to this 1/600 statistic, how many games do you think would either go in your favor or out of your favor if you had a 3rd Huntmaster? 4th Decay? 4th Top? I think that those card choices converted into win/loss statistics as the 61st card was are significantly less impactful than the 61st card itself (something like 1 out of 10 000 or so). Otherwise, why not have 61, 62, or even 65 cards in your deck if it only affects 1 out of 150 of your matches. Or even better, why not just play the maximum number of cards possible in order for those cards to have, say, a +-5% impact on your win/loss ratio by that statistical logic...
Post your list and I am certain that I, despite having probably never played your list, can find at least 1-5 flex slots.
In short, if an extra card incurs a 1 out of 600 matches loss penalty, the said extra card has to incur a match loss penalty lower than any of the cards already in the deck by itself, and the deck itself has to contain cards that individualy incur less than 1/600 match losses by themselves in order for a favorable tradeoff to be impossible.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Hi all, list has been very smooth. So far I have not missed stomping grounds. I am going to try -1 Volrath's Stronghold and + 1 Forest. Decays have been awesome sauce and the pyroclam in the board was an amazing switch. Virtue is need as long as people play Teeg. The switched mana base has made post board games very smooth with the amount of black/red spells in board. I like the idea of Olivia but am going to stay with the decays for now.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
Post your list and I am certain that I, despite having probably never played your list, can find at least 1-5 flex slots.
You've probably played similar; it is heavily influenced by Arianrhod's list.
Updated my sig to link to it, following our new convention. But for convenient reference:
61 Total Deck Count
Creatures
1 Starved Rusalka
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
Instants
1 Eladamri's Call
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat
Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
To my eyes, I can see a possible -2/+1 (that I'm going to refrain at the moment from calling out) though I question the correctness of it, which is why I haven't.
I am still less than convinced that there's a meaningful difference between 60 & 61 though. As for why not 62, 63, 65, 104, 241 1) I think [cards]Battle of Wits[cards] is stupid. 2) The real comparison is not the difference between 61 & 62 or 64 & 65 but 60 & 62 or 60 & 65. The percentages start to add up. I'm willing to tolerate the percentage change between 60 & 61. I am not willing to tolerate the change between 60 & 65.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Starved Rusulka, thragtusk, eladamri's call, diabolic intent, sakura-tribe elder could all go with almost no impact on the deck.
I'm not for it one way or another, but I do find it interesting that people use the math of adding a 61st card and show how it statistically impacts your deck's consistency while in the same breath openly state that fetches have no statistical impact on your deck's consistency, yet the impact of a fetch is mathematically higher than a 61st card.
Maybe not specifically Qweerios, but if one were to state that a 61st card is strictly wrong because of the math then they'd have to agree with fetches have a statistically significant impact on the consistency of your deck, which I wonder how many people would agree with.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Not necessarily, as while Fetchlands can thin out more than just a single card each game, they also have a cost: paying 1 life per fetch will add up eventually and can have an impact in certain matchups.
Anyhow . . . should I cut Garruk Relentless from Dig Fit? I just don't feel like he's doing as much as he could be doing.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
Starved Rusulka, thragtusk, eladamri's call, diabolic intent, sakura-tribe elder could all go with almost no impact on the deck.
I'm not for it one way or another, but I do find it interesting that people use the math of adding a 61st card and show how it statistically impacts your deck's consistency while in the same breath openly state that fetches have no statistical impact on your deck's consistency, yet the impact of a fetch is mathematically higher than a 61st card.
Maybe not specifically Qweerios, but if one were to state that a 61st card is strictly wrong because of the math then they'd have to agree with fetches have a statistically significant impact on the consistency of your deck, which I wonder how many people would agree with.
Rusalka, Tusk, and Intent are all core cards for the Rector version. IMO at least 1x Thragtusk is core for all Nic Fit versions. Rusalka is critical to Rector because it allows you to Green Sun a sacrifice outlet, and while Intent is a little more questionable (and probably is the weakest card in the deck, if I'm being honest), it's also the "10th" sac-outlet, if you include Green Suns. Again, things Rector cares about. Intent is arguably on the chopping block, but I haven't decided on anything that I would want to replace it with.
As far as the 61st-card discussion, I'm going to immediately state that I was an English/Philosophy double major. AKA, I stay the hell away from math whenever possible. So I'm not going to dive into complicated statistics to back up what I'm going to say.
1. I'm not afraid of being a heretic and going against "conventional wisdom." Too many times people are sheeple and they just blindly follow whatever they see their betters doing. You can probably count the number of times that pros have played 61 on two hands. They HAVE occasionally done it -- either because they can't figure out the card to cut in time, or, especially during Lorwyn-Shards standard (5-color-control), they wanted an extra land. If you asked a pro about why they never run 61, you will probably receive something like a consistency argument, similar to what Qweerios proposed. However, there's another aspect at work here.
1A. Pros don't play decks like Nic Fit. They play things like RUG and Stoneblade. They almost never touch Maverick (unless their name is Kibler, who plays G/W in everything anyway). Unless they're named Ari Lax, they don't play Storm. Sneak Attack/Reanimator is the most combo that they really ever go, from what I've seen. Anyway, if you run 61 cards in a RUG deck, or a Stoneblade deck, you deserve what happens to you. Those are NOT 61-card-acceptable decks. In those decks, that extra card can be lethal. I will agree with that. But Nic Fit is a completely different monster.
2. "It feels right." I'm going to get my esoteric bullshit out of the way here. I'll be honest: I have actually tried running Nic Fit at 60. And, again, being honest, it "felt" smoother at 61. Now, I'll be damned if I know why. It's entirely possible that I just had an off- couple of days when I ran it at 60, and I'm just being superstitious/neurotic. I have no idea.
3. Kich points out fetches as deck thinning. ELC points out that fetches have drawbacks (you pay a life to use them). I will point out Veteran Explorer. Our #1 dude has no drawback, other than that he has to die (which we want him to anyway). Furthermore, he thins not just one land (1-for-1), but 2 (1-for-2). Once you set off a pair of Explorers, say, you're suddenly 4 "cards" up. The chance of that 61st card mucking anything up is retardedly low at this point.
3A. On a related tangent, Rector in particular is FILLED with cards that thin the deck out. Rector gets an enchantment (3). Sakura-Tribe gets a land (5). Explorers, as previously stated. (9). Fetches (15). Green Sun's Zeniths (18). Empath (19). Almost ONE-THIRD of the entire deck specifically thins out the deck in addition to doing other things that we want.
3B. Much of the early, early development of (my versions of) Nic Fit was done on Cockatrice. Now, on Cockatrice, you actually see how many cards are in your deck. Usually, by about turn 3 or so, Nic Fit had fewer cards left in deck than my (blue deck) opponents. I interpret that as meaning that somewhere in there is a grey zone where that 61st card magically turns into +1 card advantage/+1 tempo. Sure, if you don't have that 61st card, then theoretically you'd be more likely to draw any of the 45-odd cards remaining, but having an extra option and +1 card is worth playing on a closer-to-even-playing-field-to-my-opponent's-number-of-cards-left, IMO.
4. The one spot where I will agree that the 61st card can cause issues is in your opening hand. Look at my last event, at Jupiter. I was playing Scapewish. Let's say for the sake of argument that the slot that Terastodon occupied was the 61st-slot. I had that damn Terastodon in my opening hand at least 5-6 times over the course of the event. A couple of those, if he had been any other card in my deck, I might not have had to mulligan.
5. The final point I will note here is that, in my opinion, it's a trade-off. You're trading the chance of worse opening hands for a situationally amazing card. The Diabolic Intent/slot in Rector is -probably- the 61st card. If I had to cut ANYTHING to get it to 60 flat, it would be Intent. But, anyone who's played with Intent knows the hands you get sometimes. You know, the one where you lead with Explorer and then Intent on turn 2, immune to Daze or Spell Pierce? Those hands? Or, sometimes, when you draw it mid-game and fire off a Rector with it. Or just sacrifice anything to grab the best card in your deck, and win from there? I'm not saying that the math is on my side. In fact, it very likely isn't. But I'll take faith over math any day of the week -- it's just who I am. I believe that the 61st card is worth the trade-off, and my belief makes it so. Your mileage, most certainly, will vary.
5A. Quick addendum: Scapewish almost certainly could go down to 60 cards. That is one point I will concede. The opening hands matter a lot more in Scapewish, and Scapewish's "gimmick" (Burning Wish) doesn't suck cards from the deck, unlike Rector. If Rector stumbles a little early, it's fine -- it can make it up easily later. Scapewish....not so much. There are currently 3 slots available in Scapewish for tweaking (the Stronghold, which has continued to disappoint; and the pair of Olivias/2nd Sakura+4th Top). The Stronghold slot, let's say, could be the "61st", and just removed, while the 2x slot could be, well, anything. Right now, Abrupt Decays are probably optimal, honestly. I really, really want Olivia to work -- she seems like she should be Scapewish's Baneslayer, but I dunno. I haven't been hearing favorable reports, and I'm less than inclined to invest the 15/each in a theory. Once they rotate out of standard I'll probably give them a more aggressive testing if we still haven't gotten anything better, which, I say again, considering that the Gruul clan is coming in about a month, seems unlikely.
Actually, I'm going to update the Scapewish link in my sig to that end. -2 Olivia/-1 Sakura/-1 Top, +2 Abrupt Decay **; -1 Volrath's (no replacement).
-Edit-
Speaking of opening hands, Erick, I'm terrified of your mana base without the Stomping Grounds. You only have 10 green sources -- you cut two green-producing lands for a R/B land and a basic Mountain. Considering the whole lack of fetchlands thing, I'm not sure I'd trust that to hold up long-term....over the course of an SCG or a GP, for example. I feel like you're going to have to mull too many otherwise good hands because of not having those two extra green sources.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I have been meddling with the mana base for the past week. I am considering the following:
3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Tagia
4 Badlands
4 Mountains
2 Swamp
2 Valakut (Been calling this Mt. Doom)
1 Phrexian Tower
I have 11 green sources. I do not know if that is too few?
Edit: people need to get over the idea of running 61 cards. I agree with Ariahnod about 61 feeling right. I have no idea why but it does. End rage post.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Just for the sake of clarity, GSZ doesn't thin the deck and Diabolic Intent is not immune to daze or pierce, the opponent just counters in response to the explorer trigger.
The point of my post wasn't to really speak towards one side or the other, it was just pointing a fun fact. Most legacy players openly criticize people who say that fetches thin the deck but abhor the idea of running a 61st card, when one actually impacts your consistency much higher than the other.
I would probably cut Diabolic Intent from the list, the deck is already rife with tutor effects and like you said, deck thinning, which makes top pretty good. The enchantment package all makes sense, but the intent doesn't really seem that great. Or if you dropped something else for a second one, that wouldn't be bad.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I don't recommend talking about the benefits of "deck thinning" when it comes to removal of one card at a time from a deck throughout several turns. It really takes multiple turns to realize a benefit, and that usually doesn't exceed 2-4% over the course of a game. Veteran Explorer might have the best argument for that as he pulls 2 cards out a time - two that you don't want to be drawing anyway; and even there it doesn't provide much improvement on your lands-to-spells ratio over a single iteration. Playing more lands hurts that benefit as well.
Example: Assume it's turn 2, you've drawn 2 lands and played them and have sacrificed Veteran Explorer.
Case 1: removing two lands from a deck with 20 lands would result in a deck that is now 16 / 50 = 32% chance to draw a land. Prior to that, 18 / 52 = 34.6%
Case 2: removing two lands from a deck with 23 lands would result in a deck that is now 19 / 50 = 38% chance to draw a land. Prior to that, 21 / 52 = 40.4%
The less land you play, the larger the effect apparent. Generally, if you're playing less land you need less land to operate, so it's a wash. (Imagine RUG Delver)
Fetchlands as "deck thinning" is misguided. Their use should only be stability for the mana base, and color fixing.
GSZ doesn't thin the deck either. It's a tutor. Having the flexibility from running situational cards does provide sufficient justification for running a 61st card in the deck. However, carefully consider if that 61st card is worth the trouble of messing up the best possible chance to draw your best cards.
Example: I've played Maze of Ith in Maverick as the 61st card with the reasoning that it's easily tutorable and provides a good function in the maindeck where it would otherwise be in the sideboard.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
Just for the sake of clarity, GSZ doesn't thin the deck and Diabolic Intent is not immune to daze or pierce, the opponent just counters in response to the explorer trigger.
The point of my post wasn't to really speak towards one side or the other, it was just pointing a fun fact. Most legacy players openly criticize people who say that fetches thin the deck but abhor the idea of running a 61st card, when one actually impacts your consistency much higher than the other.
I would probably cut Diabolic Intent from the list, the deck is already rife with tutor effects and like you said, deck thinning, which makes top pretty good. The enchantment package all makes sense, but the intent doesn't really seem that great. Or if you dropped something else for a second one, that wouldn't be bad.
Most people aren't smart enough to counter in response to the Explorer trigger, but point granted.
Intent seems like a card that needs to be built around more than Rector is doing. I'm going to wait and see what all toys Gatecrash brings before replacing it, but I wouldn't criticize anyone who cuts Intent now. If you want to build around it more, like Viridia with his Omniscience version, then sure -- it's fine. But in my-style of Rector, I think it's safe to say that it's the weakest link, by far. I might try to test that as the Recycle, and keep the Arena. Not sure.
Also, Tingxuan on eBay has a Korean Recycle up for 10 bucks shipped, if anyone's looking. I picked up one copy from him just now, but he has another remaining.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Koby answered for me in a clearer fashion here I believe. I have been against the 61st card and against the idea of using fetches as deck thinning from the begining too as Kich pointed out.
I think that the simplest way to distinguish the two arguments even though they are both based on odds is to state that the 61st card is merely a matter of opportunity cost while deck thinning via fetch lands is a matter of scale. You will play fetch lands for color availlability and the shuffle effect regardless, you simply don't play them for deck thinning as a primary argument because it has such little impact versus its other inherent abilities. However, the 61st card is a tradeoff between what the worst card in your deck brings you and how it combines with the drawbacks of playing 61 cards.
As Arianrhod put it, if his Terrastodon was his 61st card (which makes a lot of sense), it would have significant impacts on starting hands, midgame draws, lategame card availlability, and probably a myriad of other things. The fact that it is the 61st card however, is another argument against playing that card as it is now effectively draining a little bit of the efficiency of all of the other cards in your deck so it better pull it's weight, big time...
@Slikwilly,
I think you could safely cut 1-2 Sakura, Baneslayer, Elspeth, Intent, and Call. I would also suggest the following changes:
-1 Intent for +1 GSZ. Especialy if you choose to sport a single Rusalka and Fierce Empath, GSZ is arguably the best card in your list;
-1 Call for +1 Top. As far as card quality and card selection goes, Top has much better synergy with the rest of the deck. It also lasts troughout the game;
-1 Sakura for +1 Ooze. Honestly, I shouldn't have to explain that one;
-1 Baneslayer as the 61st card. This card only has synergy with Moat. It is purely vanilla and doesn't become any better with GSZ, Fierce Empath, Recurring Nightmare, etc... it is only there to be randomly good at random times. It might hose RUG G1 but your deck will still function as good if not better without it;
Elspeth falls within the same category of cards as Baneslayer except that it has more synergy with the rest of the deck (Deed, Moat, harder to remove). It is a fine card for this deck but I would consider a higher impact card like Teeg or Grave Titan before.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Is Recycle that much better then Chains of Mephistopheles?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@ Arianrhod: Thanks for reminding me that I neglected to mention the other difference between fetches (and explorer) and the 61st card.
Fetches and Explorer can be stifled. Explorer itself can be StP'd. The 61st card and its effects on consistency, however, are impossible to negate after deck construction and during a match from either side.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
@Slikwilly,
I think you could safely cut 1-2 Sakura, Baneslayer, Elspeth, Intent, and Call. I would also suggest the following changes:
-1 Intent for +1 GSZ. Especialy if you choose to sport a single Rusalka and Fierce Empath, GSZ is arguably the best card in your list;
-1 Call for +1 Top. As far as card quality and card selection goes, Top has much better synergy with the rest of the deck. It also lasts troughout the game;
-1 Sakura for +1 Ooze. Honestly, I shouldn't have to explain that one;
-1 Baneslayer as the 61st card. This card only has synergy with Moat. It is purely vanilla and doesn't become any better with GSZ, Fierce Empath, Recurring Nightmare, etc... it is only there to be randomly good at random times. It might hose RUG G1 but your deck will still function as good if not better without it;
Elspeth falls within the same category of cards as Baneslayer except that it has more synergy with the rest of the deck (Deed, Moat, harder to remove). It is a fine card for this deck but I would consider a higher impact card like Teeg or Grave Titan before.
Surprisingly, I actually find myself largely agreeing with Qweerios here. 3 Tops is industry standard for Nic Fit. Baneslayer as a 1-of is horrible. I'm guessing that you use the Call as a "2nd Baneslayer" since it's also a +1 copy of anything in your deck, but I'd rather have the extra threat. Like, Baneslayer as a 2-of is perfectly fine. As a 1-of, I wouldn't touch her, primarily since she isn't tutorable. You want her showing up to win games on her own; you don't want to tutor for her to do so. I like the 2nd Elder over the Ooze for reasons I've stated a dozen times if I've stated them once. 4th Green Sun is something I'm strongly considering for that Diabolic Intent slot myself (the problem being that I want both Recycle and Arena). I just wish there was a better selection of green hate bears to tutor up, besides Teeg. I still say that Nether Void and Cranial Extraction effects are more powerful hate than Teeg is, and I wouldn't run them together for obvious reasons. Elspeth is another card like Baneslayer -- you want 2 copies or 0. A 1-of seems pretty bad.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
moseby
Is Recycle that much better then Chains of Mephistopheles?
They fulfill two different roles.
Note. This is probably going to go into long-post mode. You've been warned.
First of all, as stated, Recycle and Chains do different things. Chains is primarily to hate your opponent. Recycle is to make yourself stronger. Also, Chains maindeck is a horrible idea, because it makes Arena bad, Top bad/less good, AND there's the biggest single problem with Chains: you have to have it EARLY for it to be good. IMO, the best place for Chains is in some kind of Enlightened Tutor control deck, where you can slam it on turn two and stare ferociously at your opponent. If you drop Chains on turn 5, it's very lackluster.
Now, fun time. *Cracks knuckles*
Chains has a strong dissynergy with Nic Fit. I'm also going to return to everyone's favorite punching-whore, as well: Liliana of the Veil.
Sidenote: I think is probably pretty close to the heart of Qweerios' and my perpetual disagreements. Obviously, no offense intended in anything I say. *Respect fist-pump.
I personally view Nic Fit as, and prefer to play Nic Fit as, a resource hog. It's Scrooge McDuck. Its purpose in life is to accrue resources, then use its superior resources to wear an opponent down until they eventually succumb. I would call this a positivistic strategy. It's attempting to advance its gameplan.
Chains of Mephistopheles and Liliana of Veil, in particular, emphasize and supplement what I will call negativistic strategies. A -prime- example of a negativistic strategy is Stax(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Sorry, having fun). 43lands is another classic example. These decks are resource deprivation decks. They thrive based on their ability to shut down their opponents' resource generation, be it mana available, cards in hand, board presence, and so on. Pox is probably the single best example of this type of deck -- and it should be no surprise that monoblack Pox is the one deck where Chains has seen serious play, and as one of the primary Liliana of the Veil decks (though BUG and Junk are supplanting it now in that regard).
Compare (my Rector) Nic Fit and Junk.
Nic Fit runs 0 Wastelands, and 0 Knights of the Reliquary to tutor for said Wastelands. We run 4 maindeck discard, they run 6+. They run 6-8 spot removal maindeck, we run 0. We run 0 Liliana of the Veil. They run 2-4. Instead of spot removal, more discard, and Lilianas, we run things like Veteran Explorer, Sakura-Tribe, Rectors, sweepers. Generally speaking, from a philosophical point of view, the two decks are diametrically opposed -- even as Nic Fit and RUG are. One wants to marshal its resources, the other wants to deprive their opponent of those same resources. This is why I hate Liliana of the Veil in Nic Fit, and one of the main reasons I have come to hate Chains as well. For how I play the deck, and how I see the deck, the two plans aren't compatible aside from various sideboard options (Cranial deprives them of specific resources in deck, Nether Void is arguably the single greatest mana deprivation card in existence, and so on).
You see, Nic Fit has a strange quality to it. ALLLLLL Nic Fit is built around 4x Explorer + 4x Cabal Therapy. The interaction between these two cards is a sort of gateway. Let's say it's a spacegate -- think Babylon 5 (or insert arbitrary scifi here). You can use this technology in two ways: you can use it for growth, or you can use it for warfare. If you want to use it for growth, you want backup ramp engines, sweepers, more late-game bombs, more engines. If you want to use it for warfare, you want more disruption. You're taxing your economy to do so, but you don't care -- you're salting their earth and burning their bones. I believe that whichever way you personally choose to use the spacegate, to use the Explorer/Therapy interaction, is up to you, and is determined by how you prefer to play games (not just magic). In every RTS I've ever played, I've primarily been a boomer. I was the jackass in Age of Mythology who fast Mythic'd with Isis and drowned you in Elephants. I was actually the guy who invented and popularized the Vinci boom in Rise of Legends.
And you know what? I've always disliked Warcraft and Starcraft as strategy games.
They focus more on the warfare and less on the economy. It's all in the micro, not the macro. I'm a macro specialist. So I naturally prefer to boost my own gameplan rather than impede my opponents'. I'd rather be defending myself and building up 100 civilians while my opponent sits on 25 and is trying in vain to break my defense. At the core, that's my philosophy in Magic, as well.
So yeah. I don't exactly know where that came from, but I'm a writer, and I know a writer's sudden urges to write.
So there's that.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
As someone who runs JMS and LotV, I should mention that at some point, Nic Fit does become a negativistic deck. Otherwise, we wouldn't run Deed, Pulse, Therapy, Decay, etc.
I'm not disagreeing that, on the whole, Nic Fit is a positivistic deck. But not only do we need to take a negativistic approach in order to buy time and resources to build up to that point, after we have achieved that point, we have little to gain from a positivistic approach and much to gain from denying our opponent resources and time to turn the game in their favor.
Personally, I'm in favor of Lili as a 1-of, as it helps mitigate the chance to lose against combo and control as her +1 arguably hurts them more than it hurts us. Chains . . . I honestly don't like Chains that much, either for a negativistic or a positivistic approach.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
Koby answered for me in a clearer fashion here I believe. I have been against the 61st card and against the idea of using fetches as deck thinning from the begining too as Kich pointed out.
This feels like a bit of a whoosh. My point was that...not necessarily being "against" either, but that if you acknowledge one as being strictly bad (61st card) and one as being inconsequential (fetches and deck thinning), it doesn't make sense since the latter is actually more impactful than the former.
It wasn't particularly targeted towards anyone in specific, just social commentary.
To be more on point, I actually happen to own all the duals / fetches to make GBW nic fit work, is the rector package you feel required? Or can the deck simply be similar to the GB version, but with better removal (Swords), GSZ targets (Sigarda), and good white stuff (Sun Titan)?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Surprisingly, I actually find myself largely agreeing with Qweerios here. 3 Tops is industry standard for Nic Fit. Baneslayer as a 1-of is horrible. I'm guessing that you use the Call as a "2nd Baneslayer" since it's also a +1 copy of anything in your deck, but I'd rather have the extra threat. Like, Baneslayer as a 2-of is perfectly fine. As a 1-of, I wouldn't touch her, primarily since she isn't tutorable. You want her showing up to win games on her own; you don't want to tutor for her to do so. I like the 2nd Elder over the Ooze for reasons I've stated a dozen times if I've stated them once. 4th Green Sun is something I'm strongly considering for that Diabolic Intent slot myself (the problem being that I want both Recycle and Arena). I just wish there was a better selection of green hate bears to tutor up, besides Teeg. I still say that Nether Void and Cranial Extraction effects are more powerful hate than Teeg is, and I wouldn't run them together for obvious reasons. Elspeth is another card like Baneslayer -- you want 2 copies or 0. A 1-of seems pretty bad.
You are correct on the Call as a virtual '2nd Baneslayer' but it's also a 4th Rector. Or any other creature. (I have been dreaming for months now of a Not-So-Fierce Empath that tutors up a 5-drop specifically for Baneslayer. Someday...) I can see dropping Baneslayer for a GSZ-able flier, but Sigarda is leagues better than every other green flier and she's only good as a one-of.
As long as I'm playing Rector I think I'm also going to be playing Intent. Intent -> Rector -> Moat -> Elspeth is about as solid as it gets.
Elspeth is the most cuttable in my estimation, but I can't see cutting Moat and if I've got Moat I want Elspeth. Especially if I drop that Baneslayer.
Agreed on the 3rd SDT, but acquiring it has never been a very high priority for me. I've thought about Enlightened Tutor as a 'virtual' SDT that also goes well with all the enchantments in the deck. But since it's top of library instead of in-hand I've not pulled the trigger yet. Given the splash hate Deathrite Shaman does to Rector, this might not be such a bad move though since you still get access to enchantments w/o the Rector.
I'm generally happy with my list as is. The fixes suggested are well and good and all, but I don't think they address what needs to be addressed. This list already handles 'fair' decks just fine. How about some changes that don't completely wreck those matchups but improve the matchup against combo or other 'unfair' decks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
This feels like a bit of a whoosh. My point was that...not necessarily being "against" either, but that if you acknowledge one as being strictly bad (61st card) and one as being inconsequential (fetches and deck thinning), it doesn't make sense since the latter is actually more impactful than the former.
It wasn't particularly targeted towards anyone in specific, just social commentary.
To be more on point, I actually happen to own all the duals / fetches to make GBW nic fit work, is the rector package you feel required? Or can the deck simply be similar to the GB version, but with better removal (Swords), GSZ targets (Sigarda), and good white stuff (Sun Titan)?
RE: fetches. There are two big issues with fetches as thinning: 1) that point of life matters a lot more than the minute improvement in your draw percentages, 2) you're giving away shuffles that improve your Top far more the deck thinning.
RE: GBW. I like Rector Fit because it is the kind of deck I want to play. It's not an autopilot deck by any stretch. I'm sure it can be build w/o the Rector package I'm just not sure it's worth the 3rd color for that. Sigarda is awesome, but GB is not short of things that can bash people.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Kich,
This has been my current dilemma. I am convinced that Rector is not he deciding factor in choosing GBW. I find Jarad's Order to be just as good if not better than Rector because it will grant you value with so much less preparation. As I was looking through the possible GBW options for a GSZ-based deck, I have also come to question the necessity of a recursion engine. Between Genesis, Volrath, and Nightmare, I don't think any of them are needed for this deck to be sucessful if it is able to have enough early disruption or generate enough card advantage. Cards like Eternal Witness, Deed, Fierce Empath, Grave Titan, Sun Titan, Prime Titan, and the sheer fact that we have larger creatures than most decks is slowly taking me away from recursion engines. I think that overall a single Volrath Stronghold should be enough. Playing white as a splash color gives me access to all these beautiful creatures but when I choose to go the Rector or Jarad route, I suddenly lose to GY hate (Deathrite Shaman ARRHHHHH).
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
Playing white as a splash color gives me access to all these beautiful creatures but when I choose to go the Rector or Jarad route, I suddenly lose to GY hate (Deathrite Shaman ARRHHHHH).
To be fair, there are other combo-y finishes for the deck, like Congregation at Dawn, Weird Harvest and Tooth and Nail. I'm not too familiar with the combos that these cards can create, but I can think of a few simple ones like Norwood Priestess, Shifty Doppelganger, Elvish Piper, Braids, Conjurer Adept + Emrakul or Blightsteel. Obviously slower & more vunerable, but dodges GY hate. Also, has anyone considered Crater Hellion in Scapewish? It may be too slow, but could have potential as a Wrath on a stick.
