Trinisphere does not affect converted mana cost. Chalice triggers are linked to converted mana cost.
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Trinisphere does not affect converted mana cost. Chalice triggers are linked to converted mana cost.
Ignore my "It's been a long day already" brilliance, been up far too long already.
It's alright, Fry. We know. I have my fair share of gaffes.
I think this happened to me three times now. The look on their face when you tap your metalworker and show your god-hand with 5 of 6 artifacts...... priceless :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikter
I like when people try to Stifle my Metalworker or Lion's Eye Diamond. Now I know I have to play around a Stifle.
You can add me to the "it's been a long day already" crew, because I can't tell if you really do want to play around stifle haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
FYI for anyone else, stifle can't target mana abilities, so unlike trying to needle a mana ability, trying to stifle one is a judge call, Game Rules Violation.
Stifle can totally wreck MUD. Stifle the critical Ugin activation (-×) or Stifle a Forgemaster activation (4-for-1). Pithing Needle on Grim Monolith has actually cost me a game where i was unable to untap the darn thing for mana the turn later, so it slowed me enough to loose. Or how about Pithing Needle on Lightning Greaves.
Well, I certainly wouldn't want my Forgemaster's ability to be Stifled. A 3/5 tank isn't terrible, I suppose. Important note: While Forgemaster with Lightning Greaves has shroud, the activated ability does not. Your opponent can still Stifle it. They may not know that though.
Honestly, the line "Mana abilities can't be targeted" in Stifle causes more confusion than anything else, because it is utterly useless. Mana abilities doesn't use the stack in the first place. On the other hand, Stifle can still target abilities that adds mana, like Deathrite Shaman and Mana Drain, because they are not mana abilities. You see the confusion?
Similarly, my opponent can't Stifle Revoker's static abilities because neither uses the stack or is triggered. A trigger ability will always have the words "When", "Whenever", or "At".
Edit:
Just in case anyone is confused, since mana abilities doesn't use the stack, your opponent can't respond to your Metalworker activation. So if your opponent tries to cast Clique in response Metalworker's ability, that's a game state violation.
Hello everyone. I put together some rules of thumb for MUD. Most of these are things I've seen other people mess up because they are unfamiliar with the deck, or they just want to do over the top things. The deck should be first and foremost a prison deck. It occasionally does infinite things, and it occasionally "combos" to get an instant win with blighsteel colossus, but the main goal is to squeeze your opponent's options down to nothingness, then land a protected fatty and kill them.
Jakobian's 10 guidelines of MUD
1. Thou shalt embrace the mulligan.
2. Thou shall not sacrifice prison pieces to Kuldotha Forgemaster*
*Unless you are 100% certain you will win the game by doing so, or if you're responding to someone blowing one up. (Or it's a redundant chalice of the void)
3. Thou shall not play city of traitors turn 1. If your only playable lands in your hand are city of traitors and vesuva, see #1.**
**It is acceptable if your hand has multiple grim monoliths, grim monolith + metalworker and you know your opponent can't deal with a turn 1 metalworker, or you know you're playing vs. storm, elves, or belcher and really need turn 1 trinisphere or chalice of the void at x=1
4. Thou shalt not use wastelands before playing a prison piece***
***This is for multiple reasons, you need mana early game more than you need to slow your opponent down, and vesuva can copy wastelands, which is highly relevant.
5. Thou shall not activate kuldotha forgemaster all willy-nilly. You don't have to win right now. Don't sacrifice a good board state for a one-shot victory unless you're forced to. It's much better to have a sure thing than to have an unprotected win condition. Obviously this is scenario dependent, but I almost never activate a forgemaster ASAP. It's generally better to be reactive or to wait until your opponent taps out. In general, people aren't running 4 Krosan Grips so there's no reason to be proactive unless it for sure wins you the game.
6. Thou shalt play Platinum Angel over Platinum Emperion. True-Name Nemesis doesn't have flying, and infect is a deck which exists. If you are tutoring for a way to not die, Platinum Emperion is probably not going to be doing any combat damage to your opponent, but Angel might.
7. Thou shall use staff of domination for more than just infinite combos. Staff of domination is awesome vs decks which rely on 1 dude getting in for combat damage (reanimator, show and tell varieties, dark depths combo, some maverick builds, D&T to a lesser extent (whichever dude has the equipment on it), infect to a lesser extent). Gaining 1 life or drawing 1 card during your opponent's end step is always relevant too. I have also used staff to untap my dudes and block my opponent's attacks. They usually pick up the staff and read it after I do stuff like that.
8. There's no such thing as "too far ahead". Got a lodestone golem down vs. storm? Jam the trinisphere down as well. Jam the chalice of the void. Jam another lodestone golem. Answers exist. Activate staff of domination to gain 1 life (or staff of nin to deal 1 damage, if that's your thing), use wasteland on your opponent's 1 land even though you have a trinisphere on the table already. Windmill slam another glimmerpost even though you're at 42 life already. Stuff happens.
9. Thou shall sequence properly. Don't cast a bare assed metalworker unless you can cast another one the next turn (or you're desperate, or playing vs a deck which can't kill a turn 1 metalworker and you're on the play...). Wait for the chalice or trinisphere to protect him. Don't cast a trinisphere before casting a grim monolith. Don't cast a kuldotha forgemaster unless you can for sure activate it the next turn, or you know with 100% certainty your opponent can't kill it.
10. Be patient. Most of the time you don't have to win right now.
Good list. But I think #6 is still up to personal choice. For me, the fat body vs. flying is not the key differentiator (although I could probably make a stronger case for the body-- much harder to burn down, faster clock...). Angel is better against Infect and other fringe situations like mill and Pact of Negation. But in the majority of cases, Emperion is better because he prevents you from losing life, rather than just putting up a Lich-esque shield that will make you immediately lose the game when it leaves play. If both cards had hexproof, Angel would be better, but they don't. That's why I normally play Angel in the SB for the fringe cases and Emperion in the MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
Nice list, some thoughts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
1) Properly mulliganing with this deck is critical, you are 100% correct here.
2) I blow up the prison pieces all the time, it really just depends on the deck you are facing.
4) This is really dependent on a lot of variables
5)I usually am very proactive about activating Forgemaster, especially if sundering titan is available. I may not NEED to win right now, but if it's possible to do so then that's the line.
6) Platinum Angel is also much easier to kill than platinum emperion. Against the infect deck, where Angel actually matters, you still may not be attacking with it because of Inkmoth Nexus. There are good reasons to run one and not the other. (I have both in the 75)
7) You are spot on about the staff, all the modes have uses.
8) This is also generally true, especially since the redundant pieces can fuel forgemaster, but there are plenty of times when I hold them in case I hit metalworker.
9) This is something I would not codify into a hard and fast rule. There are situations where you run the 3sphere before monolith, there are situations where you just run the bare metalworker, even if you know they can possibly kill it, there are situations where you run out forgemaster without enough stuff to activate it so that he is live on resolution of the third artifact, even if they can possibly kill it.
10) I'm sort of iffy on this one, I'm aggressively looking to put the game away. There are situations where yeah, you have to wait, but my overall philosophy is to aggressively execute my plan..."Here it is, deal with it or you lose" Sometimes they deal with it, often times they don't. You will wind up losing some games where waiting longer would yield victory, but I believe this is the minority.
Overall though, a nice list with some good stuff on it, we just have different philosophies on the deck. I don't consider MUD a prison deck, not in Legacy anyways. It's more midrange than anything, with combo elements. I rely more on the ramp aspect than the prison pieces, because the stuff you ramp into is so balls to the wall stupid that if you succeed in landing it, it doesn't really matter if they are locked out or not. Hell, even just landing wurmcoil engine is going to be enough to win a lot of games.
Nice list - thanks Jakobian. I'm putting together a MUD tips/strategy/wisdom guide for myself, so I'll throw this in there. Rikter covered some good points in his reply, but my thoughts are:
6) I think it's absolutely wise to run both Angel and Emperion in your 75. As you pointed out, Infect is a real deck. So is Burn. Emperion is difficult for a lot of decks to play around, it makes Ancient Tomb an amazing land, and even when life isn't relevant, a topdecked 8/8 usually isn't horrible either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
8) In what's otherwise a good matchup for us, you probably don't want to puke your hand vs Miracles. Terminus punishes greedy plays.
10) I absolutely agree with this. There are times MUD can explode, but I've found that if I'm patient, I can usually outplay most decks' long games.
It's funny how MUD is perceived so many different ways, by both its pilots and other players alike. I guess I'd agree with your definition; it's a little too aggressive to be a pure prison deck, but it probably feels pretty prison-y if you're on the other side of a Chalice, Trinisphere, and Lodestone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikter
#
Quick tourney report. Went in for the weekly at Pat's Games last night. Only 8 people, which was weird, but good enough for 3 rounds.
Round I: Food Chain: 2-1
- Game 1: I get some quick lock pieces and then Lodestone for the beats.
- Game 2: I keep a very iffy hand of 5 lands, a Monolith, and a Greaves. Not sure what I was thinking, and it becomes even iffier when he Thoughtseizes my Greaves. I topdeck some good lock pieces and threats, but he still gets his combo in place and wipes my board with Tidespout.
- Game 3: Quick lock pieces hold him up, then a Sundering Titan closes it down.
Round II: Hedron Crab Turbo Mill!!!!!: 1-2
- Game 1: He drops a turn 1 Hedron Crab, then a turn 2 Hedron Crab. He counters my lock pieces and quickly mills me out with fetches, Mind Funeral, etc.
- Game 2: My lock pieces stick and slow him down, but he still gets close to milling me out (I'm sweating after he mills the Angel I boarded in). I Forgemaster a last minute Blightsteel for the win.
- Game 3: He plays through my lock pieces and Ghost Quarters me off my lands for a while. With 3 cards left in my library, an Angel in my hand, and a board of Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and a tapped Monolith, I topdeck a Vesuva to untap the Monolith. He mills my last 3 on his turn, so I die before I can cast the Angel.
Round III: Jund: 2-1
- Game 1: Another new matchup for me, and it's ugly. Game 1 we trade scary creatures for a while, until it's just Liliana vs Ugin. He ultimates Liliana, offering me all my lands or Ugin. I take Ugin, kill Lili, and then clean it up with Ugin bolts.
- Game 2: A long grind, with Wurmcoil vs Goyfs. Eventually he kills my creatures, then Bloodbraids into a Goyf and kills me.
- Game 3: Another long grind, but when I follow up a Lodestone with a Sundering Titan, he's too limited and I get him a few turns later.
Thoughts:
- Hedron Crab!!! I was really happy to see this deck, and the guy went 3-0 with it.
- In between rounds I played some casual games vs the Food Chain player's Infect deck, as I didn't have much experience with the match. Even without boarding in Angel, this seems like a really favorable matchup for us. Does everyone agree?
- What do you all think of Jund? It seems like an ugly matchup, but slightly in our favor. Once again, Kolaghan's Command is scary.
One of my favorite things about the deck is that you have prison lines, combo lines and midrange lines. It can make it difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the list to plan out their strategy, i.e. you prison and grind them out game 1 so they buckle down for a long game, then game 2 they are dead on turn 2 because you went off with metalworker boots. This is part of the reason I think it is hard to make hard and fast rules, because this deck is VERY non linear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
I read an article about this on SCG at some point, about how the guy liked miracles because its gameplan was the same every time, and he valued the consistency. I prefer the non-linear decks; sure, I don't know what my game plan is going to be until I see my opening grip. But if I, the pilot, have no idea what kind of trajectory the game is going to have, then what does that say about YOUR ability to predict it? At least I know my full list, but you are in the dark. I like that advantage.
If I had to guess, Jakobian is running a list with more card advantage cards in it, coercive portals and such, and that is why he is looking for the longer game, and trying to grind them more. My list has no such cards; instead of trying to win a card advantage battle, I am looking to win the card quality battle instead...sure, you can have delver, but I have steel hellkite, have a goyf, I have sundering titan, deathrite shaman for ramp? allow me to introduce metalworker, oh you can ponder/brainstorm to look for cards? I just forgemaster them straight onto the field, that sort of thing. This is why my responses to his list are what they are, and why our philosophies differ. A lot of it will have to do with our differing compositions.
This is the list I run. I have something like 10+ top8 finishes in 40+ player tournaments with this list (or very similar).
4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination
Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt
This is awesome. I love Legacy. Sometimes I play Greg Hatch's Artificer's intuition for kicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
I have that decklist bookmarked but man it looks like such a slow "combo" deck. Interesting but hella difficult to tell if you can "go off" with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Nice job perfectly summarizing an opinion I've held but have been unable to articulate! This is why the MUD thread rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikter
The list looks very solid, and obviously your record speaks for itself. However, I'm just wondering: have you tried and disliked Cavern of Souls? Obviously it hurts when we get flooded with them, but as a 2-of, it's been awesome for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
Yeah that match was Legacy at its best. And you've got my support on Artificer's Intuition: I ran into it once when I was on Burn, until I had an Eidolon down that deck was scary!Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I haven't tried cavern of souls. I never felt the need for it because I feel I am good at baiting counterspells and trinisphere is usually enough to make the fatties stick. I'd rather have vesuva or wasteland instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
GPT Trial. 31 players. Went 3-2. Boo. Lost my win and in.
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Grim Monolith
2 Lotus Petal
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
Side. 4 Pithing Needle. 1 Karn Liberated. 2 Faerie Macabre. 2 Tormod's Crypt. 1 Batterskull. 1 Duplicant. 2 Powder Keg. 1 Ratchet Bomb. 1 Crucible of Worlds.
Round 1 Infect. Lost 2-1.
Game 1 he has a sketchy keep, no infect dudes or even a Hierach. I'm able to land a Metalworker and Wurmcoil gets there.
Game 2 he has turn 1 Glistener Elf and turn 2 Blighted Agent. I land a Trinisphere late and then he tries to Force of Will my Lodestone Golem when I had Cavern on Golem. A big oops on his part but his Blighted Agent and 3 lands gets there by casting Invigorate.
Game 3. I am mana screwed. He casts the Delve spell for the win.
Round 2. Shardless Bug. Win 2-0
Game 1. Metalworker + Staff of Domination = Infinite fun times. Well for me anyway.
Game 2. He has 2 Goyfs but I resolve a Wurmcoil Engine which buys me the time to drop an Ugin.
Round 3. Burn Win 2-1
Game 1. He's on the play. I'm on the draw on 5 cards. Ancient Tomb. Petal. Trinisphere. Cloudpost. Cloudpost. My scry is a Lodestone which I leave there. He goes mountain and swing with Swiftspear. My turn I slam Trinisphere via Tomb and Petal. His turn he drops no lands and swings again for 1. I'm able to drop Lodestone followed by another Lodestone and he doesn't draw another land.
Game 2. I keep the 7. A Metalworker turn 2, puke stuff out (2 Metalworkers). He goes Goblin Guide swing. My Metalworkers died to removal and then I die to Price of Progress.
Game 3. Another Mull to 5. Chalice of the Void. Ancient Tomb. Lotus Petal. Grim Monolith. Steel Hellkite. Scry is a City of Traitors which I leave there. So I Chalice on 1 turn 1. Turn 2 Steel Hellkite. Crossing fingers there's no Smash to Smithereens. Turn 4 I cast Ugin. GG.
Round 4. UR Landstill win 2-1
Game 1. A close one. He kills my early Metalworkers and Lodestones. He even has Wasteland + Crucible Mid-late Game. I'm able to resolve 2 Forgesmasters. One dies to a Snapcaster block, flashback Bolt but luckily the other Forgemaster ends up killing Jace the Mind Sculptor. So for a few turns he's drawing just lands, I resolve a Staff of Domination and despite there being a recurring Wasteland theme, I have enough mana to draw a card most of the time. Forgemaster is basically a Siege Mastodon for quite a few turns knocking him down to 7.
The critical part was when I cast a Chalice on 1. I know the deck plays Stifle (it's close to Lam Phan's list at Grand Prix New Jersey) so I really didn't want to tutor until I know I can. Chalice resolves. I then Cast ensnaring Bridge just to get another artifact. It resolved. He had a Counterspell but for some reason didn't counter the Chalice. So I then Sacrifice the Forgemaster, Bridge and Staff to get Sundering Titan. I kill 3 lands (Tropical, Volcanic and Basic Island). He still has 4 lands and a Crucible out but isn't able to deal with Titan and a Lodestone that comes in the next turn uncounterable because of Cavern.
Game 2. I'm wasted out of the game. With Crucible.
Game 3. I keep a hand of Petal, Needle, 2 Trinispheres, 2 Cloudposts and a Glimmerpost. I play petal, play Needle naming Wasteland, play Cloudpost. Next turn I try and resolve a Sphere but it's forced. Which is fine. I played the other sphere and it resolved. Eventually I'm able to resolve a Staff of Nin and Ugin. His keep consisted of a lot of Bolts.
Round 5. MUD. Lose 2-0
Mirror. Gross. And against a guy who always plays MUD. I don't. His Metalworkers got online faster than mine and puked out more shit than me. So I asked him about sideboarding. I took out Chalices, Spheres and Sundering Titan put in a Karn and the 2 Mana Ratchet and Powder Keg and Batterskull. I left in Lodestone by accident but he says that's fine, he did too. He said he left it in since it's still a 5/3 beater.
NOTES:
-I was 3-1 going into round 5, but since I lost round 1 my tiebreakers were crap. So I had to play the last round and against the mirror. Any other matchup and I would have been fine as there were lots of 3 Color Delver decks and Miracles around.
-Probably should have mulled the game 2 MUD hand vs Burn. No Chalice or Sphere or turn 2 Wurmcoil. 2 Metalworkers aren't going to live against a Burn deck.
-Sundering Titan was a boss. I fetch it just as much as Blightsteel. Staff of Domination was also amazing, drawing several cards vs Landstill and winning with Metalworker vs Shardless. I definitely won't go back down to 1 Staff of Domination.
-Needles in the board were good. Mostly named Wasteland.
-Duplicant should have been something else. Bridge main I think should maybe be Batterskull.
Tough luck - sorry man. Still, 3-2 isn't bad when you don't play MUD regularly. My suggestions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
- I'd cut the 2 Petals for 2 more Grim Monolith. While Monolith only ramps you by 1 the turn you play it, if you sit on it for a turn it can let you drop something huge. Likewise, its untap ability comes up more than you'd think. Also, not having to sacrifice it makes it good Forgemaster food.
- I think you're right to consider swapping Bridge and Batterskull. Alternatively, Bridge could become a 4th Forgemaster or a Coercive Portal.
- You said Duplicant was underwhelming, but how was Powder Keg? Some other sideboard stuff I've been enjoying that you might wanna try would be: Platinum Angel (primarily for Infect), Contagion Engine (I have it in there for Pyromancer and Mentor, but it's useful in a lot of matches), or Ratchet Bomb (again, good vs tokens and flipped Delvers).