[Primer] Nic Fit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Deed is also a time-bomb that your opponent has to play around. You set the Deed and see what happens. There are many times you're wanting to nuke Counterbalances, wait for Blinkmoths to come alive, or do whatever and you need a wait and see plan.

I'm running 3 Deed and 3 Sylvan Libraries because I have always felt that Guile is great, but you never get to draw cards. Selection/filtering is great, advantage is better. It's why I've also loved Painful Truths.

Recall that Deed isn't heavily played outside of this deck, so people aren't really expecting it. It's not like it's 2005 and you're running real Rock. Some decks just can't deal with the Deed.

-Matt

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Spot on, I agree. I'm on 2 Library/3 Deed/1 Truths. I was going to drop in another Truths but Liliana, the Last Hope is so good I wanted to make sure I had room for a copy without compromising other slots.

So a list...one I'm taking on Saturday:

Doran, the Siege Rhino

Creatures - 18
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Siege Rhino
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Dryad Arbor

Sorcery - 9
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Painful Truths

Instant - 5
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay

Enchantment - 5
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers - 2
1x Liliana, the last hope
1x Nissa, Vital Force

Lands - 20
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue’s Passage


Sideboard
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Lost Legacy
2x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Bitterblossom
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse


EDITED LIST

@Mr. Safety: Your manabase is both too small and unstable, especially since your list is both increasing in mana cost and colour requirements. You also run too few white sources and the lone Urborg is wholly misplaced. This is just asking to lose games to yourself. You'll either be forced to fetch duals too often, resulting in you getting blown out by a well timed Wasteland (where Nic Fit's ability to invalidate that card is one of the reasons Nic Fit can be a deck in the first place), or will be crippled by both mana and colour screw more than necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Mr. Safety: Your manabase is both too small and unstable, especially since your list is both increasing in mana cost and colour requirements. You also run too few white sources and the lone Urborg is wholly misplaced. This is just asking to lose games to yourself. You'll either be forced to fetch duals too often, resulting in you getting blown out by a well timed Wasteland (where Nic Fit's ability to invalidate that card is one of the reasons Nic Fit can be a deck in the first place), or will be crippled by both mana and colour screw more than necessary.

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Huh...I haven't really had too much trouble, even against wasteland decks and I have flooded more times than I am comfortable with. However, I would take your suggestion and 100% do it due to your experience with the deck. Would you do this:

-1 Urborg
+1 Plains
+1 Swamp
+1 Forest

That gets me up to 22 lands, and I could easily drop the Rogues Passage for a colored source. I'm limited on the number of fetches/duals. I have another Scrubland, but no more on-color fetches (hence the Foothills.)

-1 Urborg, +1 Plains, +2 fetchland should do the trick. Alternatives would involve more duals.

I edited my post, but ok, that seems fine.

EDIT:

+1 Plains
+1 Scrubland (due to availability and color requirements)

What is the best off-color fetch? I figured anything green or black-based is best. I can use Bloodstained Mire or Wooded Foothills.

Always green, if possible. Then black, then white. Getting that basic Forest is very, very important.

Gotcha. I am also assuming Dryad Arbor doesn't count as a land. Correct yes/no?

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Marsh Flats
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue’s Passage

That puts me at 22 lands, but Passage isn't really a land. So is 21 lands enough? I'm really getting tight at this point, finding it hard to get to 60 cards. Is 61 considered a cardinal sin? I would think with GSZ it shouldn't affect consistency too badly.

A hundred percent correct! For deckbuilding purposes Dryad Arbor should always be considered a creature and not a land. A T1 GSZ for Arbor, if you choose to go that route, usually equates to baiting out a Wasteland/spotremoval.

EDITED above, sorry. We're both online at the same time, lol.

No problem. Rogue's Passage should be counted as a land. It produces mana, just not coloured.

61 cards is fine, especially for Nic Fit. It's really not that big of a deal and in Nic Fit the payoff can be pretty damn big.

And some math to explain why:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

No problem. Rogue's Passage should be counted as a land. It produces mana, just not coloured.

61 cards is fine, especially for Nic Fit. It's really not that big of a deal and in Nic Fit the payoff can be pretty damn big.

And some math to explain why:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593

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Awesome, thanks!

EDIT: I'm going with 61, to hell with it! I can obviously see where flooding could potentially happen, but the payoff with tons of mana is actually really good (Deed + pop-it same turn, Truths + other play same turn, GSZ for anything in the deck.) Nic Fit, as it seems to me, is one of the few decks that can probably go 61 without any real loss of consistency, and actually benefits.

61 is literally your extra bullet or extra land. Doesn't matter. I've played 62 before as well, but let's not go crazy.

I'd love to see a Phyrexian Tower in there if you can spare it. If Bayou is out of reach now, I'd go with:

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x BG Shockland
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower

21 has been fine for me. Or, add more green fetches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I'm really seeing how important Deed is to the central game plan. I was trying only 2 copies, but I think 3 must be correct. I know that some folks, especially on Rhinos, use Toxic Deluge because they can recoup some of the life loss and Deluge has an immediate effect on the board. Doran has actually been really decent, giving time against delvers and allowing DRS to smash for 2 (did this in a few games where Rest in Peace was played.) Rhinos hitting for 5 instead of 4 is cutting roughly 1/2 a turn off the clock.

This deck is a drug; several games where GSZ + Vet + Therapy have made for incredibly explosive turns. When I start the turn with 2 lands and end the turn with 6, decimate the opponent's plan with Therapy, and have a Rhino/GSZ to follow up the next turn it's time to question why I wasn't doing this sooner. Fun and competitive, a really good cocktail.

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Deeds usefulness varies a lot with your mana curve. When you have a bunch of 4+ CMC threats the card gets a lot better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

61 is literally your extra bullet or extra land. Doesn't matter. I've played 62 before as well, but let's not go crazy.

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I play 60 these days with 23 land (including a Dryad Arbor). It took me literal months to find a configuration that would allow me to do that. I think that in general, 61 is the easiest spot to be at in this deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

61 is literally your extra bullet or extra land. Doesn't matter. I've played 62 before as well, but let's not go crazy.

I'd love to see a Phyrexian Tower in there if you can spare it. If Bayou is out of reach now, I'd go with:

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x BG Shockland
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower

21 has been fine for me. Or, add more green fetches.

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You haven't been seeing too many mana-screwed games at 21 lands? I was on 20 lands + Arbor and I was flooding occasionally, screwed occasionally, mostly ok. I think with 21 it would be ok, but I am leaning heavily on the experience factor from Echelon and Brael. If they say 22 lands + Arbor, that's what I'm doing lol.

I unfortunately don't have the Phyrexian Tower, if so I would include it easily over Rogue's Passage. I do have the Overgrown Tomb, but I have found that my life total is a fairly big buffer in this deck. With 4 Rhinos I could see it being ok, I guess. I'm curious why I would need more than 1 Bayou though? Isn't the emphasis supposed to be on basic lands? I would think another fetchland would be better than a shockland.

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue's Passage
(1x Dryad Arbor)

So functionally 22 lands, all of the colors settled. I have 15 initial green sources, 14 initial black sources, 13 initial white sources. Green and black are obviously the more important colors with white coming in 3rd based on colors/curve. This seems stable to me, if not perfectly ideal. Obviously on-color fetches like another Marsh Flats/Windswept Heath would be better, alongside a 2nd Bayou. In the absence of those I think this should be ok with the 4th Forest, probably better than Overgrown Tomb/Blooming Marsh/Woodland Cemetery.

EDIT: Copied and pasted from Echelon's Dark Confidant list

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

The difference is Tower + Stronghold, of which I have neither and I am subbing in Rogue's Passage. I would be doing the same, albeit without perfect fetches: 10 fetch, 3 dual, 8 basic, 1 utility, 1 ????? (I put in a basic Forest)

I don't see the need for another dual land if this is the template.

Friend of mine Top 8'ed at yesterday's Knightware Staples tournament. He went 4-0 double ID and lost in the Quarterfinals to Lands in game 3. List can be found in the link below.

http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic...018legacy.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

You haven't been seeing too many mana-screwed games at 21 lands? I was on 20 lands + Arbor and I was flooding occasionally, screwed occasionally, mostly ok. I think with 21 it would be ok, but I am leaning heavily on the experience factor from Echelon and Brael. If they say 22 lands + Arbor, that's what I'm doing lol.

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Most do 21+Arbor. I think that's fine if you can't figure out the cut. Like I said, it took me actual months to figure out the cut to get my build to 60 and while I do like it, I'm not even 100% convinced that it was the right call.

If it helps, here's my manabase:
Land (23)

3x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Or to put that in more general terms so that it's applicable to your 3 color build: 3 duals, 7 basics, 8 fetches, 5 utility lands. But keep in mind that I run Crop Rotation so I'm higher on utility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

Most do 21+Arbor. I think that's fine if you can't figure out the cut. Like I said, it took me actual months to figure out the cut to get my build to 60 and while I do like it, I'm not even 100% convinced that it was the right call.

If it helps, here's my manabase:
Land (23)

3x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Or to put that in more general terms so that it's applicable to your 3 color build: 3 duals, 7 basics, 8 fetches, 5 utility lands. But keep in mind that I run Crop Rotation so I'm higher on utility.

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Being only 2 colors allows for you to be more effective with basics as well. That third color rewards, but is also a cost (as I'm finding out.) If nothing else, this foray into Nic Fit has really made me pay attention to building mana-bases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Being only 2 colors allows for you to be more effective with basics as well. That third color rewards, but is also a cost (as I'm finding out.) If nothing else, this foray into Nic Fit has really made me pay attention to building mana-bases.

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The deck is more fun in 3 colors but more effective in two in my opinion. For most builds I don't think the third color actually adds anything that's not already available in just GB aside from the fact that GBw is a little easier to build into for people new to the deck since it's less expensive oddly enough.

Yeah, manabases should be 21 or 22 lands big. As a general rule of thumb if my curve ends at 5 I stick w/ 21 lands, if it ends at 6 or I run multiple 5-drops I go for 22.

Edit: With the release of the new Archon and Bramble Sovereign I have an updated Junk list. Didn't manage to cram it all into 60 cards so I went and added a 61st. Here goes:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Bramble Sovereign
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Archon of Valor's Reach

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

The sideboard hasn't changed.

Curve now tops out at 6. As such I added an extra land, and b/c of that I swapped Courser of Kruphix for Nissa, Vastwood Seer. The Archon took the place of the 2nd Tireless Tracker and Meren has been replaced for a Bramble Sovereign. Ideally I'd still run a Courser, but in what space?