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For what it's worth, I am down to 2 chrome mox. But I probably flip flop on this slot too much. 3 seems like too many for me, and 1 doesn't seem like enough. Yet even with 2 sometimes I have to roll my eyes when I open with both of them. Variance doesn't care about what I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arguru
The invitational is almost here, I've updated the OP with the list I'll be playing.
I think I asked this before, but what drove you to the 3 Mires over the 1-2 misty/mire split from before? you mentioned earlier that you value basic swamp fairly highly, could you expand on that somewhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
With only 8 Spells in the deck that actually require blue mana, the Island isn't nearly as desirable as the Swamp which gets tapped multiple times and is a combo colored mana. I've considered in the past not even running the Island, but keeping the Swamp (In order to move Bayou to the main).Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Do you think only having 11 blue sources would bring down the number of keepable hands too much, though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Going from 12 to 11 will increase the chance you don’t have a blue source by 3.177%, not counting mox or petal. We should also keep in mind that some hands don’t need any T1 Blue, or T2 for that matter.
Thats part of the reason I'm running the Island, the other being that it's Wasteland proof. Honestly, the amount of games where you would open up one land:Island where it's keepable versus one land:Bayou where it's unkeepable is an incredibly small percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
The question is, is an extra sideboard slot worth having to mulligan an extra once in 35-40 matches?
If this were a vacuum, then your question would make sense. But Island being essentially indestructible has been fairly key in some match-ups like RUG Delver or Death in Taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
Honestly, if I were to move the Bayou main, I don't even know what I would add as Needle and Surgical are currently weak in the metagame. You have to look at what you're really gaining compared to what you're losing.
Well, I usually take the bombs with burning wish when I'm going to combo this occurs the most of the times and involves investing several resources for this purpose. Even cards like LED means you will invest all resources on it. this is a great difference between Grim Long and TES - the use of permanent accelerators (moxen, etc) and the use of LEDS and Petals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
On the other hand if the opp. plays well usually lets B.Wish resolve as usually this does not represent a threat for him - maybe it is on 1st game, but this game is not the game I want to handle - I want to handle better 2nd and 3rd games.
for sure if the unique card left is B.W. with ton of mana , Opp. will not let it resolve if he has FoW.
I believe that the unique card that allowed us to acomplish such role was T.Cruise, and maybe EtW for 1st games, but not PiF or D.R.or I.T.
There is a fact and it is that if Opp. has Fluster and FoW and if he plays well he will not counter B.W. (in here I remember that Bryant - vs Miracles match up in which that player countered that B.W. when he shouldn't)
Another point is that I've been hating playing 2 volcanics and after some testing I'm happy to returning to silences list which also potentiates my D.R.!
In old era lots of times I finished winning my BUGs opponents via D.R.!
Anyway after some torunaments with this configuration I'll try what you say as also makes sense.
@CabalTherapy:
Well me for example long time ago I use my own TES, maybe I take some opinions from Lem, bahamut or Final Fortune, I would love if by here all will agree but from my perspective, since I started to see such changes like basics - even 2!! and 2 Chrome moxen I just cannot agree with Bryant even if he is the creator of the deck, hell be here there are also physicists and mathematicians whose opinions can have much more value or me than Bryant's!
I think everybody needs to have its own opinion that can be or not the same than others. I think the important thing is to use valid arguments, for example, for me playing TES in such a manner doesn't make sense, I think the current build is just worse than TNT or ANT and its strategy is diluting more and more - for me it is simple if you want to have a better late game just play a different deck which consists at its simplest in more basics, less moxen and more C.Rituals, thats all.
using basics in TES for the unique goal to avoid wasteland is absurd, wasteland existed long time ago and for TES it has not been an issue - did RUG exist 2-1 years ago? - yes, This is a misconception of strategy. I think TES want to handle wasteland the same way as ANT and this is just an error - just play ANT.
Question yourself - Why Bryant never has brought ANT to a tournament? - you know the reason.
as said , just an opinion.
@Question to Bryant:
Bryant, you've been playing TES for so long, why the hell you have never brought ANT to a tournament? it is just curiosity, although I can imagine the reason.
Why should you let your opponent know that you have plenty of mana available before you cast Wish if you know your opponent has a FoW? It's all about the mindgame to let him think he has to counter the Wish if you just use it as bait and make your opponent letting Wish resolve just because he thinks your reaching for your SB out of desperation or because he's convinced he can counteract your move for PIF/EtW. You have to use the information you deliver to your opponent for your own advantage. Misinformation is your keyword and without overcommitting you can, in fact, mimic the Grim Long gameplan of grinding your opponent out with threats.
I have a recurring problem to understand your lines of thought. How does a dislike for 2 Volcanics lead to playing Silences other than your undying love for DimRet?
Played the list I suggested last week at the Invitational, my rounds went as follows:
2-0 Death & Taxes – Two games in a row I put 14 Goblins into play on turn 1.
2-1 Miracles (Michael Majors) – Game one I had a weird situation where I could only make 12 red mana post Ad Nauseam. Played Wish, Played Wish, Empty the Warrens and Grapeshotted him down to 2 so that if he fetched he couldnt Force or shuffle the rest of the game. He didnt find Terminus. Third game, I resolved Ad Nauseam with a counterbalance on the table (one on top), played Decay after and won.
2-0 BUG Delver – Grindy game one where I got him with Past in Flames. Second game it’s turn two, he plays Deathrite holding up a mana. I lay a second land and fetch, he stifles and I play Petal, Ritual, Ritual and Ad Nauseam.
2-0 Reanimator - I mulligan to five, he plays turn one Careful Study. I draw a second Brainstorm, Petal, Brainstorm. Fetch (search for sea), LED, LED, Petal, Brainstorm breaking the two LEDs for RRRBBB and draw Infernal Tutor. Ad Nauseam with the final mana from Petal. The second game I have Xantid and a turn 3 with hand disruption.
(second set of Legacy Rounds)
2-1 BUG Delver (Jim Davis) – Empty the Warrens for 14 against two Tarmogoyfs and a Deathrite, in order to win I had to give him a window where if he draws Decay he wins. He doesnt. Game two, I go to kill him with 1 card in hand and it was the card he drew for turn, it was Stifle. Third game, he mulligans to 4 and I make 18 Goblins on turn 1.
2-0 Reanimator - ETW + Tendrils to finish him off in the first game. The second game is a classic turn one Duress, turn two Ad Nauseam.
0-2 Dredge - He goldfishes me game one. Game two I mulligan to four looking for anything fast. My four is Ritual, Petal, LED, Mire. I play out what I can and pass. My opponent Therapies me, stares at me and says “Dark Ritual”. Couldn’t believe it.
0-2 Dark Maverick - I lose game one to a Thalia on turn two after he leaves up Wasteland turn one. I had an opportunity to Massacre but then Gaddock Teeg came down. Awkward. Game two I mulligan to five on the play, make 12 Goblins which isn’t enough to win through Deathrite Shaman into Stoneforge Mystic.
(6-2 in the Legacy portion of the Invi)
Legacy IQ
2-1 UR Delver - Game one, thought he was on Burn. Made 14 goblins turn one and won. Game two, I sided in hate for Eideleon which wouldve been better as the Duresses I sided out. Third game, I had so much mana (4 Rite of Flames - fourth with a tutor) that I was able to power through a Flusterstorm and make an Emtpy for 16.
0-2 Death & Taxes - The classic Wasteland into Thalia gets me game one. Game two he has a Aether Vial in play with a Revoker, SFM and another hate creature (Cant remember). I void Snare his Vial so that I can Massacre and win. He slides in Cannonist, I attempt to Massacre. I have always been under the assumption that you could still cast one spell after Cannonist as it’s what checks to see if a spell had been cast. Incorrect, I guess it changes the rules of the game and you cannot. I couldve done this a turn earlier but wouldve had to have drawn a Dark Ritual or LED to make up for the mana loss. Because of this I lose.
2-0 Miracles - I don’t remember much other than both games were a slaughter of discard backed by Ad Nauseam.
2-0 UR Delver - I get him to Force of Will a bait spell and then Ad Nauseam. Second game, he plays a Delver on turn one and I play 14 Goblins.
2-1 Shardless - I shred his hand game one and win through two Deathrites with natural storm. Second game I go for a turn three win after two discard spells leaving him with 2 Visions and a blank, the blank was the second Force of Will. Third game, it was a grindy game where PIF got there.
0-2 Lands - I knew my opponent and he traditionally plays Elves, I knew he played lands at the invi but did awful with it. Wasnt sure what he was on. He mulligans to five and plays Forest, go. I tank, the best thing my hand can do is make 14 Goblins because I have wish. He end step puts Tabernacle into play. Awkward. The second game was a long one with a Decay, Wish for Snare and as I’m about to win, I draw the Ad Nauseam for the turn. I need a turn to Brainstorm it back, he crop rotations on my end step to kill me.
2-0 ANT - Both games were funny enough to be won on the back of Cabal Therapy and Goblins. Discard wars with no top decked tutors on his part.
1-2 Lands - I easily win game one with Ad Nauseam. Game two, I come across an awkward situation where if I sided out an Infernal I wouldve won but instead I have to try to win with Past in Flames or Goblins. I go for PIF, he has the Crop Rotation. Third game, I mulligan to five and all my hand can do is make 12 Goblins. I Probe him and can see he has a rotation already, I tank on if it’s worth it. He has a Wasteland and a Loam too. If I had more mana I could now Wish. Infernal. Ad Nauseam but I’m two short. Looking at the gentleman, he didnt seem to be too well off financially based on appearance. I took a stab at thinking he likely didn’t own a Tabernacle and went for it, I was wrong.
Some thoughts on the weekend, I feel like I had some rough breaks in a few match-ups. List felt okay, but I definitely noticed a lack of Chain of Vapor hurting me, Surgical would’ve been good as well. I talked with Royce and settled on the list below:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
Cutting a discard spell from the main is hardly noticeable when we have one in the sideboard to wish for, the extra land in theory takes away some of the threat of Daze in those situations anyway. I’d like to find room for Surgical as there seemed to be a lot of Reanimator, lands (Its just okay here - not sure if it’s even worth siding) and Dredge (wouldve had to play it twice if there wasn’t a repair) there, but the only way I think we could is if we shaved a Xantid (which is good in that match-up anyway, Surgical isnt good versus Omni or Sneak) and then Massacre. This causes me to think the list above may be better.
Though with me being on a current MTG sabbatical till the next expansion hitting the stores, I'm baffled that you opt to chop the 4th Therapy but also adding a land (you were pointing me at hellbent problems in the past in regards to running more lands).
I see losses to D&T and Lands, matchups where the Basics were considered a help, but did not end up turning the games in your favor. I'm interrested why the stable mana either wasn't a factor or not an option in these matches, because the conclusion I draw from the read is that "more lands" work better than "Basics" in regards to fighting mana issues caused by opposing gameplans, an idea I discussed a while back.
I actually beat ANT one of the games because he couldn't become Hellbent. I don't think adding additional lands into the deck is any sort of benefit, what I'm looking at it as is an opportunity to create more slots in the sideboard. As of right now, I think the deck has very few flexible slots with one of them being the 7th discard spell. If I end up putting the discard spell back in, the one from the sideboard will be leaving. That said, I'm open to other suggestions. I understand that you dislike the basics, but they were great against: Lands, Death and Taxes, BUG Delver and Dark Maverick. I'm not looking to cut them anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If the 7th discard spell isn't the slot worth shaving we're looking at:
2nd Chrome Mox - Which will make our Ad Nauseam considerably worse.
4th Infernal Tutor - Moving it to the sideboard, which doesn't actually free up a slot.
Empty the Warrens - Which was great all weekend.
7th fetchland - I don't know if six is too few with 13 lands?
2nd Underground Sea - is the second Sea important when there's a basic Swamp & Bayou left?
Alternatively, you could reconfigure the manabase to the Bayou/Badlands over one second copy of the other two duals.
I.m not sure if I understand you well as my English is not as good...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I.ve always hated such a non polivalent land in TES, on one hand.
now That I.m going to try again going back to 2 silence a total of 10 All Colours producers seems okay to me
Well nice to see that Bryant had the same problems vs lands than me!
At least mines now in theory are solved.
Apart, I also disagree on 14 lands 2 C.M. For the same reasons Lem mentions, (lots of the match ups Bryant played seems that 3rd C.M. would have helped because of speed) but I.ve also evaluating taking out 1 disruption spell in order to put bayou main, more fetches and save that so desired side slot
EDIT HAVE you found any good card for TES in that new expansion Lem?
Looks like you did not ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I'm waiting for the last Expansion to hit the Stores before GP Lille (is it Origins?) to pick my deck and before that I'm not bothering much with cardchoices and stuff for at least my part other than pure theory.
The issue of cutting discard these days is the lack of them in early turns against opposing combo, Counterbalance and shit. I was used to run only 6 in the past with the idea of Wishing for a Duress turn 2 to combo turn 3, but it bites your ass here and there. Discard-on-demand without clogging your hand is a nice concept, but not working if Counterbalance/Chalice/Thorn/S&T lock you out turn 2. that's why I was juggling with up to 8 discard spells in the Main at times if I expected a metagame filled with the beforementioned.
Well, I need to agree...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
my 1st games vs c.b. were in deed improved because of having discard instead of Silences, as mentioned, I will test this configuration and see what happens...
I.ve also seen the resurgence of Rug by here
Hi,
Since I've never really played this deck in paper before I have some logistics questions.
Excuse me if they are dumb.
When using pad or paper have you found a really good system to keep storm and mana accurate?
I tried BBBRRR but it gets really cluttered. Any good grids people use? This would
really help since I'm so visual and my handwriting is terrible.
Can you use different sleeves for sideboard sorceries that you would never board in to
keep you from accidentally shuffling them into your deck for the next game/match?
If you make 18 goblins do you actually put 18 goblin token cards onto the battlefield or
use a representation?
When revealing to Ad Nauseam it seems it would be easier for everyone to just verbally count down
rather than writing each life change, and since you haven't passed priority, I assume it's perfectly
legal. Is this how you do it or do you notate each card you flip and your current life total?
Thanks in advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I don't write anything down unless it ends up being an incredibly convoluted turn, by not writing things down you tend to remember how numbers add up and the lines you can take without giving away lines or cards in hand. For example: Two Rite of Flame is RRRR, Ritual is BBB. Seven mana, minus a Tutor is five. Five floating is Ad Nauseam. It's easy math without providing information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
On top of that, at a higher level players tend to look at your life total paper trying to get information based on what you're playing.
I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.
Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
That stuff would be much better received in general if it was wrapped in ideas behind that lead to this configuration, so I miss the initial Version you said having posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by PartyMonster
A urgent and inevitable question here is, despite the nice U.Sea+Taiga for having access to all 4 colors and Decay, how the Taiga which does absolutely nothing for the MB than delivering a red IMS is any good itself for developing the first 1/2/3 turns of the game or what the point of Island is against Wasteland if you only have 3 Fetchlands to grab it?
I don't know about cutting discard, more and more I've been moving to a 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Swamp manabase and cutting back on the use of Chrome Mox, so I spend a lot of games fetching for Swamp, Duressing, playing a Fetchland, Cabal Therapying and then waiting to crack the Fetchland on T3 in order to go off with 3 lands in play. I really like being able to consistently sit back on discard and buy turns in roughly the same manner ANT does. For that reason I really like 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Duress MD and I've been experimenting with reducing Chrome Mox to 1 and adding a Simian Spirit Guide or just playing 2 Simian Spirit Guides in order to be certain I always have an accelerant that produces the off color mana to the combo (by off color I mean Red, considering your basic is Swamp and your first Fetchland choice is Underground Sea)
Cutting Cabal Therapy seems a bit strange to me considering how polarized your Burning Wishes are towards Empty the Warrens without Infernal Tutor in your SBs G1.
I suggested Taiga earlier and the idea indeed got shot down.Quote:
Originally Posted by PartyMonster
The reasoning for Taiga is simple: we want to be able to cast all stuff we have from two lands AND be able to go off with BR as initial mana from our two lands. A deck with as little lands as TES cannot reliably count on having three lands every game, so there's a good reason to try and have Duals that accommodate both the BR initial mana, and have the ability to cast all cards we have.
The counter argument is also simple: Taiga on its own doesn't help our setup, and it also doesn't cast any main board protection spells. So having it in your opener will almost always be suboptimal, if not hampering your development to a complete standstill. (Love that sentence. :tongue:)
So there you have it.
The point is that Bayou+Volcanic provide also 4 colors like U.Sea+Taiga, but do this with a better split as you are able to cantrip AND cast protection with the obvious lack of supporting Decay. The choice ergo boils down to either being able to cast Decay off two lands (mind, you board Decays only against very slow matchups anyways which let you accumulate IMS') or running a completely dead MB land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Yeah, I don't disagree on cutting Discard. Peter convinced me not too long after that I wasn't really gaining anything by the move, the Bayou is currently in my sideboard with 7 discard spells main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
EDIT: I put my current list in the OP.
I was going to do a somewhat longer post talking about the last TES list, but it saves me some time if someone else talked the 7th discard spell back into the main (As an aside, I'm not really part of any of the think-tanks or web groups, so if any topics I bring up were already discussed, sorry for any redundancy for those reading this thread). Bryant, I think your current posted list looks good, but I have some suggested changes that I think are worth exploring:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Main-Deck:
- 1 Island
- 1 Underground Sea
- 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Bayou
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire
+ 1 Chrome Mox
Side-Deck:
- 1 Bayou
- 1 Void Snare
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Grapeshot
Summary:
SB Tutor accommodates 3rd Chrome Mox
Snare becomes Grapeshot
Bayou replaces Underground Sea
Fetch replaces Island
SB Infernal Tutor/3rd Chrome Mox
I know there's been some back-and-forth in the past about how worthwhile the Infernal Tutor is in the sideboard. Personally, though, I've come to appreciate it a lot over time. Infernal Tutor in the SB provides more efficient use of LED mana for EtW lines, more worthwhile Wishes in matchups where Goblins don't shine, and only deprives your openers of a Tutor/Wish in 1/19 games (not even factoring cantrips into that figure). The 3rd Chrome Mox, something I appreciate a bit less, is something I feel complements this deck too well to disregard. One of the things that really irked me about the 8-Tutor/Wish build was that it seemed like one of the best build for 3 Moxen and yet I couldn't justify cutting a land for it. Still, even with just 7 Tutors, and thus less risk of the clumping that Mox helps to alleviate, Chrome Mox is valuable acceleration that can put this deck ahead of Hymns and Hatebears. If there is a real dearth of Tempo/Combo in your meta, it would probably be justifiable to run Bayou in the side and main-deck 8 business with 3 Moxen for maximum speed. That said, I think this configuration makes the deck best suited for a general meta.
Grapeshot > Snare
The logic for this choice is two-fold: 1 - Grapeshot + Pyroclasm is way more appealing to board in against Stoneblade than Clasm alone and I like having less pressure to bring in Decays. 2 - I've never had Snare come up particularly big for me in as long as I can remember playing it. What value targets can you point a Snare at? Leyline and Teeg. Teeg gets ripped up by Snare and Pyroclasm, and there is only marginal value in being able to delay siding in Chains against possible Leyline users given that, unlike ANT, you don't even fold to Leyline if they do have it and you didn't bring Chains.
I feel Grapeshot even exceeds Void Snare in corner-case uses as well. When it comes to randomly buying turns, I think bombing 1 or more Cliques/SCM/Pyromasters to slow already glacial control decks exceeds the value of bouncing 1 guy that they might still get value off of later. The ability to have a win condition not named "Tendrils of Agony", as well as side in 1 of the 2 storm spells against control/Patriot probably also trumps some dream-world scenario of Void Snare bouncing some odd permanent like a planeswalker or Lodestone Golem. I think using a Wish board to win the game and pack threats is better for this deck than trying to cover fringe cases and give up valuable slots for random cool stuff.
Bayou > Underground Sea/Fetchland > Island
My suggested change here is focused on providing black and red mana as consistently as possible. There are only 8 blue spells you need to be casting in the deck, often fewer than that postboard. If 9 red spells isn't enough to justify a basic red source, I don't see why 8 blue is enough to justify an Island. If you fetch a dual and cantrip, and then get Wastelanded, you're down a business color. However, if you fetch a basic Island and cantrip, you're still not having a business color on the following turn, you're only advantaged, effectively, 1 colorless mana as far as comboing goes. This configuration still boasts 11 blue sources, for consistency's sake, and has redundant dual-based sources of black and red mana to provide some coverage against Wasteland.
With some awareness of when to fetch Underground Sea vs. Bayou vs. Swamp, you can still manage to cast a cantrip while threading mana together, even against Wasteland. In my experience Island felt so underwhelming, especially post-board when 1 or more cantrips can be sided out and your hand is packed with red, black and even green business spells. With no Bayou in the side to sub in, I feel like the Island can just be entirely foregone. With 3 Moxen, and the availability of 3 blue duals and 8 fetches, you can cantrip as needed, while enjoying even more power in your slightly increased access to Basic Swamp. IMO, Gemstone Mine is arguably just as good overall for securing cantrips as a Basic Island, because Gemstone Mine is an unappealing Wasteland target and you get increased value from redundant green sources in some match-ups as well as the ability to immediately transition your cantrip into whatever business/protection you cantriped for, which increases the value of Mine (high-risk, high reward - feels appropriate for TES!). However, the Gemstone-less build is likely the safer hedge due to the high access to basic Swamp, so it gets the nod from me.
If anyone wants a more indepth explanation of my rationale, I would happy to explain more. For those who don't want to click over to the OP and then mentally substitute my changes, this is what I'm suggesting:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting a 8th fetch over a second Underground Sea. Sea is our best land, it does everything we want our lands to do. If it gets wasted you could easily be in a situation where you're now color screwed. I could see playing the Bayou in the main over the Island, it's something I've considered but I believe the additional basic is worth more. The difference between 8 Blue spells and 9 Red spells is the function is which they're used. You typically only need red mana once where blue mana is often a repeated use.
What the SB Infernal/3rd Mox comes down to is sideboard space, by playing it main and siding it out almost every round you gain a sideboard slot.
Snare has done me wonders against Ruric Thar (Elves) and Iona (Reanimator), both things Grapeshot doesn't really handle well. I want to play Grapeshot as much as everyone else, if you're willing to do 1 Chain/1 Snare to fit the Grapeshot I think that would be more suitable.
You do gain something similar to an additional basic with the third Chrome Mox, which is something interesting to think about. If I were to run something like you're suggesting, it would be this:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
The downside of this list is that you're essentially giving up a second basic land for a Grapeshot, which makes me think it's not worthwhile.
There are about 3 distinct sorts of decks that use Wastelands, as far as I observe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Lock/Prison
Tempo
Control
Against Lock/Prison decks, cantripping is probably as much a one-time thing as your red spells, given that you shouldn't/won't be playing a hand that relies on multiple cantrips, given the fear of lock pieces and the fact that you side out a number of Ponders. I think against Control it's something of a wash as those games are very slow and it would be very greedy of them to attempt to Wasteland you out. Against Tempo, I felt as though the increased fetch-access to basic Swamp was comparable to the additional Underground Sea, though I can understand wanting that redundancy and having a higher number of lands to actually fetch up. With that in mind, subbing a fetch back out for Sea is probably good.
You gain a sideboard slot at the cost of mana efficiency and acceleration. Cutting Island for Bayou frees a sideboard slot just as well, with Chrome Mox helping to smooth your blue and red sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I do not think Ruric Thar is a great example of the use of Void Snare. Losing 6-12 life and then being able to combo off against a deck that can easily blunt/seal our Past in Flames/EtW lines as of the midgame feels like an ambitious scenario to say the least. Particularly game 1, where Snare would actually have a large edge over SB Chain. FWIW, mtgTop8 lists only a third of Elves lists actually maining Ruric and under half having it in the 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Regarding Iona, an observant opponent game 1 would just call Red anyway and thus lock you out of the game. You would have to preemptively Wish for Snare and then the opponent would have to have no counters, no discard and no ability to subsequently revive a non-Iona target game 1. Overall, that seems like a lot to ask for. Postboard, you would have the 2 Chains of Vapor, so that you can break an Iona lock anyway.
I think you would be better off just having that 3rd Chrome Mox over the 4th Tutor, and then the 4th Tutor over Snare. You'd be faster, more streamlined in executing your core plays, and I feel the EV of your Wishboard would still be robust. You would also have a strong blue presence with 4 blue duals and 3 Moxen. I'll concede that Underground Sea is likely worth more than the 8th fetch, thinking it over more, but I feel like Snare is highly over-rated. In the previous lists running no Chain of Vapor, I can see how Snare gets valued highly, but Vapor is likely a more efficient answer in the overall scheme of things and I just don't see the need for 3 bounce spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Sinced I moved to 8 Fetchlands and 1 Swamp, I had a lot of problems with the "color fixing" Chrome Mox, because a lot of the time it doesn't color fix since you don't have a 2nd red card to cast Burning Wish or you have to imprint Gitaxian Probe in order to cast Ponder and you lose out on the draw 1 + information. I've been messing around with the tutor, discard, accelerant count and think Simian Spirit Guide is really worth the slots, either as a 1 or 2 of if you SB Infernal Tutor and balance out the average CC of the deck. As far as Island goes, believe me I get wanting to build up the manabase, but the problem is it can just be inconsistent to double fetch basics and get cut off of Red or only have 6 fetch for Swamp/Island instead of 8 fetch for just one of the two. That's kind of my composite reasoning for moving towards just playing Swamp MD and dedicating the "necessary evil" accelerant to Red mana. Also I really doubt only playing 1 Underground Sea us a good idea, if there's any land you'll have to fetch for twice it's that one. I think you guys are just getting really greedy with the number of reduant SB removal cards like Massacre, Pyroclasm, Grape Shot and Voidsnare, when you can cut 1 of those in order not to have to play with a shitty version of "Swamp" in your MD and cut multi colored blue sources.
FWIW, I think I'll be back on 2 U. Sea, and I will be trying to go on with just Grapeshot, Clasm and Massacre, alongside the "generic" Chain of Vapor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Re: Spirit Guide, I tested it last summer and found it to be a fairly middling option compared to Chrome Mox. It's higher variance, in that it's great when its good and awful when it's bad. A lot of the time, for me, Chrome Mox imprinting red is fine because I'm doing it post Ad Nauseam or smoothing redundant tutors. Imprinting blue is just fine for me as well because it typically serves as an accelerant in hatebear matchups where the probe/2nd cantrip is less significant, or in games where the investment in another mana source to dodge daze is worth losing the info, since I'll have to take several draw steps and use discard anyway.
You're not actually freeing up a slot as you're sliding in the Infernal Tutor there, we're really just moving pieces rather than gaining any. I can also see what Final Fortune is saying with Mox not actually fixing color issues with red/blue sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I single handily won a round at Eternal Extravangza 2 weekend using Wish to answer Ruric Thar, while I understand that these instances aren't common, they happen. Void Snare has stolen me more than one game by being a Wishable target unlike Chain and I see nothing but an advantage in playing it over a Chain of Vapor (in your list). Also, you're assuming players always play correctly, do you know how little this actually happens? I get so many free wins based on players siding in Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, etc, this extends to naming the wrong color (Which is often black). We gain quite a bit by not actually being ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I think a split of 1 Chain/1 Snare would likely be fine. I'll do some testing with no Island and report back, I think it's at least worth trying. SCG: Syracuse (My hometown) is this weekend, if I don't do well in the main event, I'll be playing in the IQ Sunday. But I'd much rather be still competing in Standard sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Well, overall you do free up a slot, the Island leaving makes room for Chrome Mox. Effectively, I guess I'm arguing that I'd rather have a Mox to facilitate/accelerate my colors, blue included, than have an island facilitate/stabilize my colors. This probably reaches back to innumerable previous debates about composition of lands/moxen and their respective numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Isn't TES about playing the odds? If your useful Snare scenarios (Snarios) are uncommon, and Stoneblade/Hatebear scenarios are common, which option is really giving you the better EV? Moreover, there are advantages to playing Chain. For example, you can actually use it in the end step (better for Thalia/Port) or easily generate storm (if you wanna talk edge cases). Idk for sure how to respond to the last part about players misplaying Ionas, my intuitive response being that I would just try to play better and win out that way given that skill is probably more valuable than void snare and you can't beat lucky reanimator players anyway, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
No island, 1:1 chain/snare split does seem like a fine hedge of both our ideas, I look forward to hearing about your testing. I'll try and get in games with my suggested list (i'll be on 2 Seas, don't anyone worry) and see if I miss the Snare/hate the 3rd Mox. Best of luck at the SCG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Exactly, we're not gaining slots. We could be if we still played all 4 Infernal MD (over Mox 3) and sided it out every round.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I guess my point is I want to be prepared for everything and if I can do that by playing a single sideboard slot differently for an almost identical card, it's worth it.
I get what you're saying about the shuffle of cards between Tutor over Mox, but what I think is significant is that once Island isn't in the board we're no longer in the position of having 14 lands in the 75 where we typically only use 13 of them in the main, and then you get the sb tutor for better EtW/Wish lines, the extra accel of Mox etc. But at this point, we've pretty much talked it to death and we'll just see what the testing shows about an Island-less build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Looks like i'm playing Legacy tomorrow, I'm playing with the third Mox upside down so I can tell whether or not I would prefer if it was Mox/Island/Tutor.
12 Place at the SCG:Cuse Legacy IQ
Here's the list (Featured in the link above):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
In my somewhat limited goldfishing, I rarely wanted the upside down Mox to actually be Chrome Mox. I went with the fourth Infernal Tutor, so that I could gain a sideboard slot. I cut the Pyroclasm as the Snare/Chains are more versatile while being easier to cast versus taxing effects.
R1 - Death and Taxes – I win the die roll.
G1 - He plays a turn one Mom followed by a Revoker on LED, I play Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam leaving a Petal open and kill him without needing LED.
Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
G2 - Long story short, there was an error with mulliganing on my opponents part. However, my hand was Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, LED, LED, Chrome Mox, Burning Wish and Polluted Delta.
2-0
1-0
R2 - MUD – I win the die roll.
G1 - She aggressively mulligans looking for a turn one Chalice, stopping at five. I turn one Ponder setting up a turn two. She plays a land and passes. I play Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor and Ad Nauseam.
Sideboarding: -1 Cabal Therapy, -4 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay
G2 - She has a turn one Chalice on one. My hand is Brainstorm, Decay, Swamp, Mire, Delta and a Petal. I lay lands down until my hand develops, I decay Chalice on her end step, untap, draw and Brainstorm. It's not a good one, but it finds another Brainstorm and a Chain of Vapor. I shuffle using a fetch and then I Chain her Metalworker to slow her down knowing she can't cast the Lodestone Golem in her hand (known off Probe). She recasts, Metalworker and passes. I draw Dark Ritual for turn, Brainstorm into a land, Infernal Tutor and a Lion's Eye Diamond. Easy game.
4-0
2-0
R3 - Shardless BUG – I win the die roll.
G1 - I Probe him turn one to see four non-wasteland Lands, Brainstorm, Dig Through Time and Tasigur. I Duress his Brainstorm and easily resolved Ad Nauseam two turns later.
Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid Swarm (Note: He mentioned in passing that he beat a previous storm opponent on the back of a Flusterstorm. I figured I'd try it.
G2 - I get crushed by a series of back to back Thoughtseizes followed by a Hymn to Tourach and eventually a Goyf.
G3 - My opening hand is Bayou, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm and a pair of Lotus Petal. I Probe and see a Force of Will, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm and three lands. I draw a third Lion's Eye Diamond, play out the artifact mana and pass. He Thoughtseizes me, I Brainstorm in response finding Swamp, Duress and Cabal Therapy. I reveal Swamp and then over the next two turns remove Force and Fluster. In the meantime, he plays a Goyf and a Deathrite Shaman. My hand is now Dark Ritual and his is a second Goyf and just Brainstorm (known from the Probe on the stack) I draw Ad Nauseam and cast it using the Dark Ritual, Bayou and remaining Lotus Petal. He Brainstorm doesn't save him.
6-1
3-0
R4 - Dark Maverick – He wins the die roll.
G1 - He plays a turn one Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond. I actually lose this game, can you believe it? I shred his hand, am actually about to win before he draws a Thalia on his last turn. There's no justice.
Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare
G2 - He concedes to my 14 Goblins on turn 2 after I Void Snare his blocker when I attack on turn 3.
G3 - I mulligan. He plays a Plains and passes, I play a Petal and Fetch holding Chain of Vapor, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual and lands. He plays Cannonist, I Chain it on his endstep and Ad Nauseam on my turn. Tough.
8-2
4-0
R5 - Miracles – I win the die roll.
G1 - He lands a CB on turn three after two discard spells, I play a Rite of Flame (he reveals a land), Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish, Empty. He draws the land, lays it and passes. I attack and pass. He draws Ponder, Ponders finding Top. Lays Top, fetches, and finds Terminus...
Sideboarding: -1 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty the Warrens, +3 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
G2 - I cantrip on turn one, he lays a land and passes. I Duress him, he Enlighten Tutors in response for Cannonist. I Brainstorm on his endstep but only have two Underground Sea with a Decay, two Wish, two LED and an Infernal. I Infernal for the shuffle effect to find a second Decay. He beats me down with Cannonist and Clique before I can find any proper color mana in a reasonable time frame.
8-4
4-1
R6 - Junk/Abzan – He wins the die roll.
G1 - Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Hymn, Lilliana and SFM all happen to me game one.
Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Chain of Vapor
G2 - This probably should've been a mulligan? Underground Sea, Bloodstained Mire, Brainstorm, Ponder, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Cabal Therapy. I don't end up doing anything this game and lose to his draw steps (In a row, Wasteland, Wasteland, Thoughteize and Tarmogoyf).
8-6
4-2
R6 - Trainwreck – I win the die roll.
G1 - He Thoughtseizes me turn one, I still kill him turn 2.
Sideboarding: -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty he Warrens, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Past in Flames, +3 Abrupt Decay (He's an old friend, I know that he has Chalice in his side and that his deck becomes mostly discard).
G2 - I go to set up a PIF kill before realizing I'm an idiot and sided it in for the first time in over six months, I make 16 Goblins into a Pernicious Deed. I win three turns later when I draw the Past in Flames. Embarrassing.
10-6
5-2
Good enough for 12th place, I felt like the list was strong. The matches I lost were mostly tough breaks. I never wanted the Island, but didn't play against any tempo decks either. I did play against a bunch of Prison and Midrange with Wasteland but the Island wouldn't have been relevant. I never used Surgical, but it was mostly based on pairings as I saw a few Dredge + Reanimator early on in the day.
Related to R6 - Junk/Abzan
Assuming this is Junk - just discard, wastelands and bears.
Why the hell you board out the 2 C.M?
maybe I don't know this archetype - but does this archetype play Blue?
Related to Shardless BUG:
do Siding in 3 Xantid really improve that match up? I believe there isn't anything better...
What is your thinking process related to this? maybe : it is Slow Control and it is likely Opp. will side out Anti Bears.
EDIT: you're ritght Lem! I just didn't understand this on the note Bryant wrote.... my english is not as good as yours! Thanks
Bryant made pretty clear that he boarded Xantid as his opponent dropped a line about boarding additional counters like Flusterstorm and opted to "try it"
Peter and I were discussing the list yesterday and came up with what's below. We decided that it's likely in our best interest to play a second green source in the sideboard rather than run cards like Chain of Vapor/Disfigure (something we were considering), in doing so it created sideboard slots. Actually, we had an extra space. The slot to me was originally a discard spell, but it could be anything, Diminishing Returns, Grapeshot, Telemin Performance, Storm Entity, Ali from Cairo, you name it. But the more I thought about it, the more I think it should be a sideboard Infernal Tutor (This is the only slot where Peter disagrees).
By playing an additional green source we can reliably side in Decay versus Wasteland decks, making it a much more versatile card. The second green source would likely have to be a Bayou as Tropical can't be searched for by Bloodstained Mire and we run only a basic Swamp, so we need our Mire. The alternative would be Taiga, which I'm not convinced is the greatest option.
I believe the new SB plan against D&T would be:
-3 Duress
-2 Ponder
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Void Snare
+1 Bayou
I believe the new SB plan against Reanimator would be:
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Swamp
+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Bayou
If you decide you don't like the additional Bayou in the side, I would recommend two Chain of Vapor in the sideboard over the Infernal (going back to the maindeck) + Bayou.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
I'm looking forward to people's thoughts.