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Kavu looks fun. Though if we're considering Kavu, I wonder if it's worth thinking about Murderous Redcap instead? It's not as much damage, and yes 2RR is harder than 3R, but certainly issues tickets on the value train. Pia and Kiran also come to mind.
Double red is the issue with that. If you play double red cc's, I am almost certain you need at least one Plateau and fetches. Don't get value train tickets if you can't pay for it to begin with.
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I have been playing death and taxes for almost 2 years now.
I am not so sure "recruiter of the guard" is the card we need in D&T.
It does give card selection, but vs the decks we need card selection the most it is to slow.
The mayor reason to play recruiter is the recruiter flickerwisp interaction, witch is stomped by any removal spell.
Sanctum prelate is insane and should be at a minimum of 2-3.
Serra avenger is such an effective beater i think we should keep her.
People ought to be required to playtest before posting. This is so not in the realm of possibility. You can't just slot in cards with heavy color requirements into a deck based off colorless mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosque
In Imperial Taxes, Redcap could potentially be used, but that would compete for the Pia and Kiran slot and has a creature type that conflicts with the standard Caverns name.
Using Recruiter to fetch the card you need and playing it a turn later is better than not seeing it at all. D&T doesn't have card selection aside from this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvin
There's also Vial interactions. On turn 3 you can have a Vial on 2, cast Recruiter for a 2 drop, and then Vial it in for free.
I was skeptical of its usefulness too until I played it. Now the only question I have is: how many is best?
So far, as expected, Prelate has been very, very good for me. Playing 3 Prelate / 3 Recruiters / 0 THC at the moment. Beat both Jund and Lands in games where no card other than Prelate on 2 would have done it. It's also been consistently backbreaking vs Delver.
One of Magus has also been strong in the board and Stonecloaker has yet to be bad, though it might ultimately be too cute. Finding myself Recruiting for Flickerwisp a ton.
It really just boils down to this. It'd be more of an issue if we were trying to assemble a stompy deck, but that's not the case. If that's your goal, then I guess a Thalias/Eldrazi hybrid might be the way to go, but I have little doubt that it will ultimately be an inferior deck to DnT. Also, needless to say, the body is far from useless in a deck like this (equipment, chump blocking, gang-blocking, sac effects, chip shots).Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
Im only running 2 recruiter, but I've taken the magus out of the main and swapped it for a 3rd maindeck prelate also. Do you still run P+K ? and what have you found for a manabase? if you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I have been running no Plateaus + only one Magus in the board for the time being mostly just to test it, not sold on any build right now. Running 9 Plains / 3 Cavern.
I think Prelate on 1 or 2 is often a comparable game over lockout to Magus vs a lot of the same decks (Lands, Delver) and is also bad vs a lot of the same decks (DnT, Merfolk etc.), so replacing Maguses with Prelates is kinda a wash. Having no Blood Moon main does leave you more open to big mana decks (MUD, Eldrazi, 12 Post) and Infect was also a lot better with Magus/Sparkmage. Was never convinced that the cleaner manabase really mattered, so if I were to add red back in, the bigger issue would mostly be finding spots for Magus, Prelate, Recruiters and at least a few tutorable creatures...lotta cards fighting for spots.
Maybe it ultimately is smarter to play a mix of Prelate/Magus - even though Prelate is really nuts - because you're hedging more on Eldrazi. Mono-W's starting point was a 50-50 matchup with Eldrazi, and now you're just going up on slow (Recruiter) and pretty bad/irrelevant (Prelate) cards and taking out Serra Avengers. Imperial made up for that with free and easy Magus wins.
Pia/Kiran is irreplaceable, and after Magus I think it's the biggest selling point for still playing red. Still haven't played against Miracles with the new build yet, but Prelate over Magus is (at the very least) an upgrade for the Miracles g1, so it's possible the Miracles matchup is just so good right now you don't even need Pia/Kiran. It's too bad the new 'just Pia' card isn't a little more pushed.
Would you mind sharing the list you feel 'most' sold on right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
This is what I've been testing with:
4 Thalia
4 SFM
4 Mom
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
1 Stonecloaker
1 Spirit of the Lab
1 Banisher Priest
4 STP
4 Vial
3 Equip
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
SB
3 Path
2 RIP
1 SoWaP
2 Ethersworn
1 Magus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Relic Warder
1 Devout Witness
1 Containment Priest
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Council's Judgment
I think if I were to show up to a big event tomorrow, I would probably play this, though:
4 Thalia
4 SFM
4 Mom
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
1 Magus
1 Relic Warder
1 Banisher Priest
4 STP
4 Vial
3 Equip
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Fetch
1 Plateau
5 Plains
SB
3 Path
2 RIP
1 Pia/Kiran
2 Ethersworn
1 Magus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sparkmage
1 Devout Witness
1 Containment Priest
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Council's Judgment
Spirit of the Lab is pretty unnecessary since Prelate is wrecking Brainstorm decks anyway, just wanted another 2 drop, but that card really isn't that great. Relic Warder is a total bomb in the mirror and also solid vs Eldrazi, 2 matchups where Prelate is bad. Stonecloaker is a close call, I'm gonna keep playing with it for the time being at least. I have yet to have a 'Why am I playing with this garbage' moment.
Pretty sure I've won more games off Prelate than any other card w/ the list I've been testing.
thanks!
regarding the mono w list:
I feel the same about stonecloaker. flash is actually pretty nice in situations where you dont have vial. I havent really used the exile ability in an important way yet, but he hasn't been bad in any scenario. 4 fliers also seem necessary.
I've played kor skyfisher, 3rd revoker or relic warder in the spirit spot of your list, but really liked skyfisher despite not being tutorable.
Devout Witness seems interesting. Don't know if she's too slow though and she can also get revokered/ needled in the mirror. Im playing 2 relicwarder currently but might try devout witness instead (both as 1 ofs). How has she been for you?
Also, is Faerie Macabre really that good? In most scenarios I've prefered playing another RIP despite it not being tutorable. I think we shouldnt play inferior cards just because they are tutorable- which is why Im also playing Skyfisher.
Sure, recruiter into faerie is more consistent as easier to fetch, but Im just not convinced its really that good.
Have you tried playing Orzhov Pontiff?
Deucegg, be sure to take a look at the list I have in the OP. Iatee does not think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is good, but my experiences tell me that it is the best turn 3 play we have. It is going to be hard to get something nearing a consensus build as long as we can not agree upon something like that.
I agree that THC can be an insanely good Turn 3 play. But I think if we play her we should play 2, rather 3 to consistently drop her around turn 3. Pre-recruiter, Ive had her win games on her own, as well as games where I just got her too late to have a real impact. While this might also be an issue with prelate, i think prelate itself is a safer, more versatile and also more powerful option. Thats why I just cant make enough room for 2-3 THC. As mentioned earlier, I consider her only powerful when playing multiple copies. Recruting her seems to slow most of the times. I might play her as fetchable 1 of though, but dont really like her in the new tutor-shell. (Despite happily playing 3 copies pre recruiter)Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
THC is a tempo card and Prelate is a prison card. They do very different things and I think you kinda have to choose a direction to go in. THC is the kinda card you want to pair with Serra Avenger, not Recruiter/Prelate. It's great t3 on the play, but pretty bad t5 on the draw, and when you're playing fewer than 4 copies of a card you're gonna see your first copy after t3 pretty frequently.
You'll almost never tutor for THC because Recruiting itself is a tempo-loss play. Even in the matchups where she's good (Elves, SnS, Eldrazi) there are better silver bullets (Ethersworn, Containment Priest, Magus) to tutor for post-board. I don't think including one THC or Mirran Crusader is the worst idea just to have some sorta beef in the deck, but I don't think they're essential to our game-plan.
I don't think we need a consensus build anytime soon. Plus different builds are gonna be better vs different decks.
Devout Witness is the ultimate mirror breaker, kinda just there as a meta call. I think it's a lot better than Manriki, which can also be revokered/needled. Relic Warder is great, there's basically no way I'd not play at least one copy of that guy in my 75, and 2 doesn't seem terrible either.Quote:
Originally Posted by deucegg
Faerie Macabre has won me a few games where no other card would. I think it's worth the spot in an open meta and it does a few things RiP can't, like interact on t0. If you know there's not a lot of dedicated graveyard decks in your meta it's not essential, but it is pretty nice to have one around.
The non-tutorable Kor Skyfisher doesn't seem like the worst choice, especially since it still has value if you draw it late (since there's likely a Recruiter on the board). I might try it.
I tried Orzhov Pontiff a while back, and I just never found it to be doing what I wanted it to do. Against Fish it's kinda annoying cause if they have a lord their TNNs are out of range immediately. Still, my sample set wasn't super huge, obviously there will be games in the mirror / vs Elves / etc. where it just wipes their board, people might as well try it out and see how it goes.
https://i.redd.it/8qrbo3ljz7kx.png
Did we already get our tutorable bomb in white?
No. Our 4 mana bombshells (Gideon, Cataclysm) are a. stronger in the matchups that go long b. hard to enough to cast as is.
If it were legendary I would play this over those vs Miracles, even at 5 mana. It's not, so a lot of the upside Pia/Kiran has isn't there. I can't think of another matchup where you'd 100% side this in. But I might play around with it regardless.
I mean, in my UW shell I ran Dragonlord Ojutai which was awesome every time I saw and got it into play. I am not sure this card is great. I would likely go with Angel of Jubilation again over this. But the fact that it is tutorable and can make 2 guys isn't terrible. Just sucks that for 5 mana it still dies to dread of night... on that note, I would likely never run it. I think I would just rather run Gisela.
@Angel of Invention (AoI):
There are few archetypes that can sport CMC5 dorks, and D&T isn't one of them:
* Between the more and more unstable mana base (CoS) and "I'd rather not hold back my Wasteland forever, just so I can play an okay creature.", CMC5 is a terrible commitment
* Ticking up Vial to 5 is meh.
* For the Honor the Pure effect to be relevant AoI comes down way too late.
Wasn't it Medea who had quite some success with runing a miser Baneslayer Angel in (Big) D&T? So I wouldn't outright dismiss a 5-drop that you can tutor for. If only the etb-trigger weren't an all-or-nothing choice :/ Netting a 3/2 vigilant flyer with a one-sided crusade effect and a 1/1 token would be a much better deal do consider in most situations, I think.
I played my weekly local tournament yesterday with a 4-Recruiter toolbox build btw, and went 4-0 (Mono B Eldrazi Yank Control feat. Belbe's Portal into Emrakul 2-1, OmniShow 2-1, Punishing Loam Walker Control 2-1, UB Reanimator 2-1). Loving the new tools.
Yeah, I played 1-2 Baneslayer Angels in the sideboard back when Shardless was everywhere as a borderline unbeatable trump. The Big D&T deck had 24 mana sources and was already ticking vial up to four anyway, so it wasn't that much of a stretch. I have not run Baneslayer since and do not intended on it unless the metagame gets really weird (lots of Jund, Eldrazi, and Shardless, for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I don't think that new card is playable, but I won't outright dismiss it. It's in a weird spot where it falls somewhere between Gideon and Baneslayer in terms of function while also being tutorable. It's going to be worse than Gideon in the Miracles matchup, which makes me hesitant to swap it out when coupled with a greater mana cost. I'm going to lean towards not testing this until someone tests me it is the nuts.
Angel of Invention just looks bad. There are already a host of unplayble 4 mana cards that are better and still not worth it, i.e. Hero of Bladehold, Gisela, the Broken Blade, Celestial Crusader, Angel of Jubilation for whatever aspect you wanted to get out of this card.
There aren't a lot of white tutorable huge bomby creatures at *any* CMC. This isn't ideal for a lot of reasons, but it is something new with toughness <2. If Gisela were a 4/2 it would probably be in the deck.
Fair enough. Still think that Angel is just bad, no matter how tutorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. If Recruiter of the Guard wasn't a thing, I would dismiss this as unplayable. Given the state of flux the deck is currently in, I'm not quite ready to just write this off completely yet. I'm not going to test it, but I won't say that it is 100% unplayable either. As an anthem, it is "better" as a card than cheaper alternatives like Veteran Armorer, while still being tutorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
The fact that it's still weak to a lot of hate (Dread, Izzet Staticaster, Golgari Charm) and can't actually eat many creatures in combat (trades w/ Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, even Delver) is a bigger negative IMO than the casting cost itself. If it were templated differently (if Fabricate weren't an ETB trigger and worked like Unleash) and were a 4/4 with counters it would be a lot better, but as is it's a 5 drop that still dies to basically everything but Abrupt Decay...which is not really what you want from a bomb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I've always just jammed baneslayer in this slot if I feel it's warranted to have a 5 dropQuote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
https://i.gyazo.com/ffb279c57a1aa08e...7bc878b6c3.png - B splash/Cavern of Souls on Human looking even stronger now.
That is a crazy dude indeed..Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
For your convenience:
https://embed.gyazo.com/ffb279c57a1a...7bc878b6c3.png
(©Black'N'Taxes™)
Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I think people on mtgsalvation are already testing a black splash with additional blacksources like scrubland and fetchlands. Due to Recruiter we can play even stronger 1ofs like Sculler, Bob, Pontiff etc.
Opens up SB options like zealous persecution which makes the mirror better
Yeah the existence of this card definitely pushes the black splash. Unfortunately not tutorable...and yet another 3 drop that only hoses spell decks and not creature decks (similar to Prelate), but the power level is very high, and it's a legend.
Colo list?Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Also worth noting that it is x/3 so the matches where you want to have it, it's hard to kill. Being legendary means we can protect from decay whIle getting the drain, also means it survives through a massacre which is huge since every other good hate bear dies to massacre. Could also be good for the burn match up. They want to answer it, they get drained and pad our life total. Through eidolon it means every spell less than 3 is 4 damage to them and 2 life for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Here is my list. I played Imperial Taxes prior to this.
Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
1 Containment Priest
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Banisher Priest
3 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:23
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Path to Exile
1 Rest in Peace
Containment Priest main serves double duty as cheat stopper against cards like Show & Tell and to turn Flickerwisp into removal.
I've been thinking about some matchups.
There are many Eldrazi in my meta but I havent played against them much yet. How is that matchup for D&T? Which are the most important cards?
I've been having problems against 4-color mentor. Is that supposed to be a bad matchup?
Main:Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
(Yes, that is 61 cards main. Firm believer in that count with 4 Recruiters. Fiendslayer is a testament to the prevalence of decks with both Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decay in the meta.)
Side (currently untuned, not sure about Prelates - also, our local metagame currently lacks storm, so only 1 Canonist):
1 Containment Priest
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
2 Council's Judgment
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sanctum Prelate
Wouldn't Prelate @2 serve the same function at stopping said spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
This, and it's even better because it protects everything, not just itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
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Yes, but Fiendslayer has a number of other upsides that people don't seem to appreciate: First Strike is highly relevant with Jitte, and the builtin lifelink makes it possible to ignore a flipped Delver that you can attack into while having peace of mind. It also makes the Burn matchup a lot better.