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There are situations where one is better than the other obviously. Unfortunately you cannot pick your silver bullet. A 4/3 split doesn't really mean anything because seldomly can you filter protection spells.
The only debate here is whether it is justifiable to run a less stable manabase in the meta where you play.
It basically comes down to that once you resolve a chant, you simply win.
Duress can't beat the hands with multiple ways of stopping you.
Chant sucks when you're trying to rip a hate bear out of your opponents hand.
You can also use Chant as a pseudo tempo effect.
Suppose your on the play against zoo, you chant them on their first upkeep, they aren't able to play their first spell. This is important because if zoo doesn't play it's first creature on turn one it will be turn three when they attack for the first time. You should be able to go off near that time. This works against turn one acceleration, vials, dredge's first discard outlet, and anything that might be able to race you or put going off difficult.
It's especially good against other combo, as if they chant, you can counter back with chant. IE as long as you have a chant they can't go off since you have an instant anti combo card for :w: that's more effective than flutterstorm.
Chant effects are unaffected by spell snare and stifle so we can ignore those effects where previously we would have to deal with spell snare prior to resolving infernal tutor, and stifle post nauseam. It still trades 1:1 with other counter magic so it still has the same value as a duress in that context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Also Orim's Chant/Silence is typically is a "must counter," where Duress isn't always.
Don't kid yourself, Flusterstorm is just a hard counter. 0 chance of Ritualling through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Just want to point out the obvious, that duress is also trash when you want to rip a hate-bear out of your opponents hand.
If anything, I wonder if thoughtseize would be the correct call in the chant/discard hybrid?
To be honest it's probably also due the fact that snapcaster is seeing a lot of play recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
No one has really discussed the Gitaxian Probes and Cabal Therapies and Pichon's list (top 4 GP Amsterdam). I think they're really good. The Probes can give you an idea of what you're facing so you can either cantrip or duress/therapy based on the information. They just work great with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy can hit creatures if desired so the absence of Thoughtseize isn't that much of a problem when considering hatebears (also two Slaughter Pacts from the board).
What I also like is that this list enables using post board Confidants and Xantid Swarms to flashback Therapy. You can really screw someone over with it because most players save their removal for the moment you're declaring you wanna attack. You can just flashback Therapy in your first mainphase, not giving the guy a chance to plow the insect.
While I agree that chant effects have gotten better because there are more Snares and Stifles opposed to Dazes and Pierces, which are more difficult to play around, I'm really impressed with Past in Flames. It's like a one-sided Ill-Gotten Gains. Being able to go this route makes chant a little less important since you don't have to worry about them recurring blue cards. It's too much of a strain on the mana base to try and squeeze Past in Flames and multiple Chant effects into one deck (more so than squeezing in a Bayou and have a set of Xantids in the board).
play burning wish? I find myself going for PiF kill most time, but still can't imagine abandoning Ad Nausem is an option...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
they are good, can get you out of situations Thoughtseize simply can't, even without flashback they are > seize for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinVos
If anyone's curious, here's my current list:
15 Land
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
45 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
3 Ponder
2 Grim Tutor
2 Chrome Mox
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
2 Rebuild
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
Pichon's list is indeed quite good. The only things I don't like about his list is the C. Veins and maindeck bayou.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinVos
Personally I would play a chant version in a metagame where you expect a lot of combo decks and pure control decks and a Pif version in a more all around metagame.
I cannot find any reason for the way how you have constructed your Fetch base.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
4 Delta
2 Strand
2 Marshflats
This config is way better because now you can fetch all duals with your fetchlands.
Maybe it is something small, but it is still a improvement.
I was a bit lazy putting that part together.
Simple.
If they wait to hit Ad Nauseam or Infernal Tutor, that's probably true.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
RE: Past in Flames
Burning Wish is terrible, hopefully this doesn't need further explanation.
If you just have 1 Tendrils and 1 Past in Flames, you can't really take advantage of the fact that Past in Flames has flashback (and is therefore insanely hard to counter). The only way you can cast Past in Flames and win is if you have Infernal Tutor already in the graveyard. If you can naturally draw Past in Flames/Tendrils, you dramatically reduce your vulnerability to countermagic.
If ANT lists are constructed in the form of:
15 lands
4 Preordain/Ponder/Brainstorm/Probe
4 Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond/Lotus Petal
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Storm engines (Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames/Ill-Gotten Gains)
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Flex slots (lands, Thoughtseize, etc)
I have 1 extra Past in Flames and 1 extra Tendrils in those flex slots. The extra Tendrils becomes important if you have access to any draw7s; I don't think I have to explain the difference between drawing a Tendrils and drawing a tutor for Tendrils off a symmetrical draw7.
Edit, since people like lists:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
2 Past in Flames
1 Time Spiral
2 Tendrils of Agony
Somewhat experimental...
I'm a big fan of the list posted in #3410. Is card by card the list I'm playing (in UBw version), chainghing the 4/3 Preordain/Ponder for a 3/4, and -3x Silence + 3 Duress (the sideboard is quite different though (confindant kind of sucks, just my humble opinion). And is the kind of list I'll play if I expect a Snapcaster.dec metagame. Though the list I'm playing now is quite different:
Maind 60
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Pollued Delta
3x Misty/Flooded/Scalding
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion' s Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in flames
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
4x Duress
3x Cabal Theapy
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
Side 15
2x Extirpate
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl' s Recall
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Il-Gotten Gains
1x Grim Tutor
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Pyroclasm
1x Silent Departure
1x Meltdown
Which I think is better suited for a wider/unknown metagame simply because Burning Wish helps a lot in dealing with almost any form of Hate, plus having the warrens out helps a lot in some given matchups. Also Grim Tutor is key, and I think is a big mistake to play an Infernal Tutor in the sideboard because it is the best enabler we have and the most regular and reliable card to start going off, so playing less than a playset in main deck is not an option.
Testing results are quite decent for now, this evening I made a perfect (4-0) in a local small store tournament (20-ish people), played against CB-Top (side MVP Extirpate), Pikula (side MVP chain of vapor, helping to reach more than 16 storm so I can win after an early nighthawk), G/W Zenith (side MVP Meltdown, killing 2 canonists with an active Mother of Runes, and my own mox in the same turn to reach threshold) and Dredge (MVP deck's raw Power...).
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Thanks for posting the list. I'm playing a similar list with 16 lands (2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Badlands, 2 Island, 2 Swamp, 8 Fetchlands), a 4/3 Wish/IT split (even though I mentioned wanting to change it to 3/4 a few posts above), Thoughtseizes instead of Duresses, and Preordains instead of Probes.Quote:
Originally Posted by egosum
In retrospect, Gitaxian Probe makes a lot of sense with Past in Flames. Being able to draw free cards for 0 mana is amazing, especially since life total is less important if you go with PiF.
Still not entirely sold on Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseizes, even with 7 other effects to allow you to look at your opponent's hand. How often do you wish you had a Thoughtseize instead? How often does Cabal Therapy's ability to nuke multiple copies of the same card turn up relevant, and how often is the 2 life that you save relevant? The deck you have posted doesn't make use of the flashback on Cabal Therapy, so that's clearly not a factor.
I also noticed the Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard. Is that more of a wishboard target or a card you bring in against aggro decks that can't interact with the stack? I find IGG is a much stronger maindeck target for Infernal Tutor than it is a sideboard target for Burning Wish, since the former allows you to kill using only black mana and since you can also use IGG to bring back the Infernal Tutor that you used to grab IGG (not possible with BW). Overall, IGG is faster than Past in Flames, but less robust; however, I figure if you're going to grab a card out of the sideboard with Burning Wish, I would almost always prefer the more robust Past in Flames for the reasons mentioned above.
It' s been very few times where I missed thoughtseize, it is oly relevant in the G1 if you draw it in your opening hand with no other "reveal hand effects" and with no other better T1 play, so it is quite cornercase. But this situations are balanced with the posibility of discarding multiple stifles/snares, I see Threapy as our "black Chant effect". Saving some lifes it's been awesome making Ad Nauseam stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
II keep the IGG in the board not for wishing, noramlly wishing IGG is not good because you won't be able to recur the wish (this is why I think that recursion effects are not good wish targets, Grim Tutor is better all the time), but because it gives you speed (as you said) against aggro decks, if I'm paying a non-burn aggro I side -1x Past for +1x IGG, and if I'm playing burn I side -1x Ad Nauseam +1x IGG (Ad Nauseam is horrible against burn/boros-like decks).
Gitaxian Probe is terrible with Past in Flames. If you whiff it turns off your Infernal Tutor. So it is free storm only in the case where you can already find and cast Tendrils.
Have you ever thought that you can play Infernal Tutor, get what you want and AFTER THAT cast gitaxian probe for extra storm/cards?
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
As I said, it's +1 storm in a hand that can already cast IT->Past in Flames and flashback IT->Tendrils. I've messed around with the deck and the situation where I need to do that has never come up.
The better argument to make is about desperation Past in Flames.