[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

I came to this thread to ask for your opinion on a minor idea, it turns out that you were on the subject anyway, so great.

For the record, I have 2 Spell Pierce in the flex slots, and yes, it is the Stalker-Hymn version.

What I want to try out, is 1 or even 2 Leyline of the Void in the board, specifically with Loam and/or Punishing Fire decks. Jund and variations thereof. The thought process behind this is, that the Leyline doesn't have to be in the opener, for it to be good. Hardcasting it will still shut off future shenanigans, and remove their inevitability. If they hold their Punishing Fires post-Leyline, then we can try to Hymn them before we deploy Delvers and DR Shamans. At the moment I have 2 Grafdigger's Cages in the board, mostly for Elves, besides the obvious graveyard strategies.

Basically I think that this deck has a very versatile main - a main that can fight with most other strategies. Therefore I look for high-impact sideboard cards. This is the board I am trying out at the moment:
1 Spell Pierce (allround hedge)
2 Envelop (Terminus, Infernal Tutor etc)
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage (elves, grave...)
2 Golgari Charm (everything almost)
2 Sower of Temptation (S&T, maybe DnT – is just high impact against low numbers of removal)
1-2 Leyline of the Void (Punishing Fire, Loam, grave...)
3 Disfigure (allround and a necessity)
1 Krosan Grip (Batterskull in particular)
1 Null Rod (LED, DnT and Affinity...)

What do you think of Leyline and the other ideas implicit in the SB?
Thanks, Tue

I think you may get a lot of people in this thread dismissing the idea, but 2 Leyline's are a fine option if you expect a lot of graveyard-centric decks. Lejay's BUG Cascade lists actually does this, I see no reason that TA couldn't implement the same approach.

I played Leyline in my board for a bit as an experiment a while back and I did really like how powerful it was. It's not going to be destroyed by abrupt decay and as you said just ends all further yard interaction if you hard cast it, which is easier to do with shaman as well in the deck. Shaman can also subsequently mop up anything that stays behind after you hard cast it, and it gets you a nut draw if you open on it vs loam, dredge, or reanimator.

I had it as a 4 of which was a lot of board space, but I could see playing 2 or 3. The main reason I switched to cage was for elves but I don't think that plan is necessary, or even consistent when you have access to at most a couple of cages.

Lawrence Moo Young representing Team America going into the Semifinals at SCG Orlando! w00t! Hope he wins it all for the TEAM!

He's running the stock list with two Liliana in the flex slots. Certainly shows the power and streamlined nature of Team America.

Definitely rooting for Laurence in the finals, but I feel like it'll be tough. He's up against Reanimator and he only has 4 Deathrite Shaman and 1 postboard Grafdigger's Cage as gravehate. His opponent is running 2 Animate Dead (instead of the relatively standard 4 Reanimate 4 Exhume) so at least the Abrupt Decays aren't totally dead, but it'll be a challenge.

EDIT: Unless Reanimator draws poorly and Team America has Deathrite Shaman both games. Congrats Laurence Moo Young!

Curious to see if he posts here. He was only 1 card off my list! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Grand Superior

EDIT: Unless Reanimator draws poorly and Team America has Deathrite Shaman both games. Congrats Laurence Moo Young!

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Indeed, the Hymn was risky, but he literally hit the two best cards in his hand. That was that. The Reanimater deck did seem to draw rather poorly though.

Congrats to Lawrence Moo Young! This deck is so sweet I love it to death!

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Curious to see if he posts here. He was only 1 card off my list! :cool:

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I think that the TA list is pretty stock up, pretty much all the list has only two flex spot :tongue:

BTW congrats to Laurence Moo Young! Maybe i have to make up my mind and play liliana :eyebrow: ?

- L

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Originally Posted by Looooooooo

I think that the TA list is pretty stock up, pretty much all the list has only two flex spot :tongue:

BTW congrats to Laurence Moo Young! Maybe i have to make up my mind and play liliana :eyebrow: ?

- L

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Yes, and that list was mostly popularized by akatsuki.
Curious to see no one else seems to want to hedge against sfm by playing seize over the 3rd pierce?
Not too worried about leyline myself, doubt that weighs too heavily on anyones decision making.

Grats for the winner though! Been long coming :)

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Originally Posted by deviant

Yes, and that list was mostly popularized by akatsuki.
Curious to see no one else seems to want to hedge against sfm by playing seize over the 3rd pierce?

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Apology for not give credit where credit is due :frown:

I'm playing 2 Tseize and 2 Pierce in the board right now but my feelings are that 1+3 is the right choice, a resolved sfm is a minor problem, with high number of removals and wastes to slow the hardcasting of a batterskull, than the great number of targets that the pierce can get right now.
In addition a timed Pierce IMO is more backbreaking than a simple Tseize in many MU.

- L

I haven't had much problems dealing with Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, and Co. With Abrupt Decay and Hymn to Tourach Stoneforge Mystic if often just a bump in the road, even if it's still something to respect. Postboard it only gets better with more removal. On playing thoughtseize in the SB, I personally prefer to have three spell peirces postboard in combo matchups. Against combo decks some will side-in counterhate like Leyline of Sanctity so I don't think it's good to add more potentially dead/bad cards. However, this is not to say it's wrong to have a couple thoughtseizes in the board as well. It's just matter of meta and preference really.

EDIT: Akatsuki, what was your reason for including Vendilion Clique in the board? I know it's a good card but I'm just wondering if we need another threat with an already threat dense delver deck. I guess disruption-and-threat-in-one is nice but the fact that it's still a three drop makes me ask your reasoning for it.

Yeah, the MD is pretty set in stone and I won't take credit for that, but he copied my SB exactly, where there is debate.

Clique is for combo, and SFM decks where you side out Stalker due to RIP/StP/Jace

Also, because a friend asked, here is my SB guide for the top decks right now, using the SCG winning list. These plans aren't set in stone and suit my own playstyle. I probably don't even follow these exactly, but I think they will still be helpful.

RUG Delver: favored
-4 FoW, -2 Hymn on play, - 2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Hymn on draw
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
As long as you can hit your land drops and he doesn't Submerge you out, you will win.

UWR Delver: even
-1 Tombstalker, -4 FoW, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
Really close match-up, very play draw dependent.

ANT: favored
-2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou, -3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
Play Golgari Charm over Decay if you see Burning Wish as that makes Empty the Warrens more likely. Decay hits LED while Charm does not.

Elves: unfavored game 1, favored games 2 and 3
-1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -4 Hymn, -2 Liliana
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge
Game 1, rely on fliers, game 2 you'll have enough removal that Craterhoof will be difficult, so just try to beat NO for Proggy. I personally don't like Liliana, but I might be wrong about her.

EsperBlade: unfavored
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -2 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
Very list dependent, I like Daze more if they play 4+ planeswalkers.

BUG Delver: even
-4 FoW, -1 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana
DRS is extremely important in this MU, it's quite hard to come back if your opponent has one and you do not.

Sneak and Show: unfavored
-1 Bayou, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Liliana, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Golgari Charm
I find this match-up rather hard, even with all of our hate post SB.

Death and Taxes: unfavored game 1, favored games 2 and 3
-4 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Ponder
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
I think this is a bad MU game 1, especially if they have more Crusaders. Games 2 and 3 I like this a lot better, it's just unfortunate that you might hit one of their 2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges and then lose, but Hymn and Liliana are so good since they have no card advantage.

DeathBlade: favored
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
I like Tombstalker because they usually play fewer Jaces and no RIP.

Shardless BUG: even
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -1 Abrupt Decay
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Tar Pit, +1 Liliana
You need to play a heavy mana denial/disruption strategy as if they get to play real magic, you're going to lose.

Miracles: even
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Daze, -2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
Pretty straightforward, if they are a good player I think this match-up is close.

Akatsuki, I agree with most of what you have said in your previous post. Although, I think if you are a good player with this deck, most tier deck matchups range from Favorable to slightly unfavorable, with Elves being the only truly unfavorable matchup. I've won most of my preboard games against Sneak and Show so far, and I've won a decent amount of preboard games against Esper Stoneblade. Sometimes the latter just sit back and does nothing if you deal with their early Stoneforge Mystic they try to ride to victory, in which case you just outright kill them. I've never really felt terrified when I find out I'm playing Sneak and Show and Esper Blade in G1 of a match. In general though those are probably slightly unfavorable matchups.

Thanks for the guide akasuki! Super helpful just know what is good and what isn't. Congrats to Lawrence for taking the tourney down. It was awesome to see BUG delver in the top 8. I wonder what his sideboard plan was for Reanimator in that final game. In 3 pierce, 1 clique, 1 cage seems obvious. But what to take out? Hymn? Decay?


A question for the class assembled. Have we had the Sylvan Library debate? Woo Young chose not to run it in his list. I feel like Liliana might be the more proactive game plan but Sylvan is an excellent engine when it gets going.

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Originally Posted by Thorhammer

Thanks for the guide akasuki! Super helpful just know what is good and what isn't. Congrats to Lawrence for taking the tourney down. It was awesome to see BUG delver in the top 8. I wonder what his sideboard plan was for Reanimator in that final game. In 3 pierce, 1 clique, 1 cage seems obvious. But what to take out? Hymn? Decay?


A question for the class assembled. Have we had the Sylvan Library debate? Woo Young chose not to run it in his list. I feel like Liliana might be the more proactive game plan but Sylvan is an excellent engine when it gets going.

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Sylvan can turn bad board states to winnable ones.

Its just that important.

Sylvan's one of the best cards the deck could be playing for fair matchups. I beat two Shardless BUG decks last weekend without getting two overwhelmed by their card advantage because Sylvan allowed me to keep up with them. However, I relegated it to SB because I think the cantrip suite is enough to find answers in combo matchups since games don't go as long. I personally don't see it as necessary inclusion for the whole 75 but that card will win you games you would otherwise have no business winning.

I keep wanting to run two Lilianas in the flex slots because T2 Liliana is backbreaking against quite a few decks, but I can't ever bring myself to cut Sylvan Library because T2 Library is probably even better. It greatly helps the tempo game because it gives you insane card advantage/selection and makes it likely that you'll have more answers to their cards and more threats than they handle. It's hard to lose the game with an active Sylvan.

Sylvan library has won me lots of games so for me personally it will stay for the time being.

About the SB I am wondering:
I have been playing 2 surgical extraction instead of Thoughtseize and it has been very good against different types of decks. What are your thoughts about it, since I hardly see it coming up in this forum (might have missed the discussion in the last 171 pages ;-) )

There was some discussion recently about the Elves(!) matchup either in this thread or their thread, can't remember which. Just wanted to share some thoughts after playing against Elves(!) a few times recently.

They say it's pretty unfavorable game 1, and somewhat favorable games 2-3. I'm not sure. I keep on winning game 1 (and 2). You guys should draw Tarmogoyf more.

Oh, and also my list might have something to do with it. I strongly feel like one of the primary ways this deck loses is to clunky, colour-intensive draws. When I was playing this deck a lot back when 4x Sinkhole was the hot sideboard tech, I strongly favored maindecking 2x Thoughtseize, 3x Hymn because you really didn't want 8 BB spells anyway. When I picked the deck up again a few weeks ago, I went back to that build and so far have been extremely happy. Deathrite into Hymn + anything is disgustingly good, but so is Thoughtseize + spell + spell or Thoughtseize + Goyf or Thoughtseize + spell + Wasteland. Etc.

So in an attempt to minimize clunky draws and maximize interaction against bad matchups like Elves (popular in the Seattle meta) and Stoneforge decks, I cut a Force, a Hymn, and an Abrupt Decay from the stock maindeck, and added 1 Disfigure and 2 Thoughtseize (with a Disfigure and Lili in the flex slots). Disfigure has been clutch in every non-combo matchup I've played, and Thoughtseize has been about as good as Hymn and certainly better than Force in most. From the board, I cut 2 Disfigures and added the missing Decay and Force.