'grats on the finish and very interesting list, I'm going to try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
3 Sylvan Libraries aren't too many? Any problem of dead draws?
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'grats on the finish and very interesting list, I'm going to try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
3 Sylvan Libraries aren't too many? Any problem of dead draws?
Congrats, guys!
Do you consider your decks closer to the regular Zoo lists or the Big/Midrange Zoo lists (in the New & Development forum) due to playing cards like Wasteland, StP, and Noble Hierarch?
It's definitely closer to a Big Zoo list than a regular Zoo list.
3 Sylvan Library with 4 GSZ really bothers me, as well as 4 Grim Lavamancer and only 4 StP and 3 Bolt (I will never play less than 10 instant removals in any Zoo variants, as it is so important in many MUs where T2 removal totally switch the MU in your favor (who said goblins ?)).
Green Sun Zoo is a Big Zoo list it has a fast start and a strong late game/
First of all congrats.
Second when you played against Ari Lax on game 2 how come you zenithed for Knight of the Reliquary instead of Gaddock Teeg??! Not saying it would have made a difference since he had the chain in hand but if he didn't you would have rolled him.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...per_Pogue.html
Congrats man! I always knew you'd make me proud back when you first started posting in this thread. It's like seeing my boy grow up:cry:
'Classic' zoo lists can still compete too, same top 8! http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/10497
Maindeck
Creature [25]
2 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
Instant [10]
2 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery [4]
4 Chain Lightning
Land [21]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
No Sylvan Library!
Yeah it was pretty cool to see a regular Zoo list T8 as well.
Sadly, both Zoo lists had to run into terrible matchups for them in their quarterfinals rounds :(
That's usually the case
In this particular t8 there were quite a few bad matchups.
Normally with more Merfolk or goblins around we'd be ok.
Thanks everyone!
Regarding 3x Sylvan Libraries, I've never had a problem with dead draw because if you have one in play you're either winning or you can keep extra Sylvans in the top 3 until you shuffle it away with Fetches, Knights, and Zeniths.
I think any list that plays less than four Grims is wrong. You said you need turn 2 removal but Grim Lavamancer does that. Lavamancer is not dead in any match-ups, he is a must answer threat that can deal 4+ damage to any opponent. He is especially good against Countertop because they have to waste a Firespout or a StP on him.
I never had a problem in the tournament with not having enough removal against the tribal decks.
Regarding my quarterfinal match against Ari Lax: I had two GSZ's in my hand, I didn't have enough pressure on the board, so i felt that even if I got a Teeg, he would have all the time in the world to answer it. If he didn't have the Duress on my second GSZ, then I probably would have won that game.
I was hoping to be paired against Goblins, Mangara, or the other Zoo list as all of those are pretty good matchups. I wanted to avoid Storm, Enchantress, S&T, and even Team America because I didn't want to try my luck again against Signorini.
I like the idea of a SB O-Ring if I can't get my hands on a Karakas. Not sure if I like Pyrostatic Pillar, worth testing though.
And Stan, congrats on the Top 16 finish!
I was reading the thread in Format & Article Discussion when I came across the dialogue about Orim's Chant. Obviously, it's main purpose is against Storm combo, where a Chant mid-combo can end the game. I never gave it a chance, because I preferred Mindbreak Trap for that purpose (and don't even run that because it's so narrow). But the fact that you can respond to a Duress (or an opposing Chant) with your own Chant gives it an advantage over MBT. Plus the fact that it shuts down Ill-Gotten Gains while allowing you to hate the next turn.
I think Chant > Silence in Zoo because the kicker can sometimes be relevant (racing Empty the Warrens if you ripped it late), and they'll never misdirect it back at us, so I'm starting to give it serious consideration in my sideboard.
However, I hate running a card that I'd only bring in against one or two archetypes, so I'm trying to think of other matchups where I'd want to use Chant. Here's a "brainstorm"--please add if you can think of anything:
- Obviously, you can use Chant to force a key card through countermagic, but I think that's very weak and would never consider boarding it in for that reason. It might occasionally be useful (say, to make sure your Sword/Path hits a Sphinx of the Steel Wind).
- It's nice against Combo Elves in response to a Glimpse of Nature, and also prevents their alpha strike.
- It can help you race Progenitus or Emrakul more easily, even dropped off a Sneak Attack (provided you pay for kicker).
- Absolutely owns Hypergenesis if resolved. Violent Eruption? Sure, Chant you.
- Probably solid against Dredge. Prevent them from using their key Cabal Therapy or Dread Return if they dredge it in their draw-step. "Fog" their alpha strike with Flame-Kin Zealot. Not as nice as gravehate in this matchup, but gravehate is pretty narrow.
Can anyone else with experience chime in on this?
You chant in response to:
Doomsday.
Hellbent Infernal Tutor.
Burning Wish.
(Other storm combo business spells.)
Rituals that make x mana into into Charbelcher/Sneak Attack/Empty the Warrens.
Breakthrough.
Sensei's Divining Top triggers.
Glimpse of Nature.
The list really goes on forever. I use chant because it has many applications, but if you're meta isn't plagued by combo or legendary creatures I'd probably stick with Karakas and avoid it altogether.
Hey, that was a good list, but my question was more "against what matchups would I bring in Chant, and how good is it compared to other alternatives in terms of versatility across matchups and raw hate power within those matchups", rather than "when do I Chant"?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Can you elaborate on Sensei's Divining Top triggers?
I've been starting to play Zoo recently myself and was wondering how people deal with Perish from the board?
Other than combo, that's been the only card I've been having a lot of problems dealing with.
Sometimes they bring in 4-6 Perish effects and it just wrecks me. Merfolk aren't so much of a problem because your removal at 1 for 1 is still good, but Goblins are usually generating tokens or getting card advantage (Matrons, Ringleaders) and your spot removal just isn't as good there.
You just don't over extend. If you knwo they're on that plan, don't play a KotR and Goyf side by side. Run the one to death then play the other one. Your dudes are bigger than theirs. Sure they can chump all day long, but if they swing for a counter attack, it could be lethal for them. Also, playing off color threats like Lavamancer and Steppe Lynx mitigates it some.
If you're playing classic Zoo, just drop a bunch of Loam Lions, Kird Apes, Figures of Destiny, Grim Lavamancer, and Stoneforge Mystic, which outclass their creatures and which they can't sweep. If you get an active Lavamancer or Jitte, they simply cannot beat that unless you were way behind to begin with. That means you can still "overextend" as long as you also don't run too many Nacatls/Goyfs/Pridemages/Knights out there. You should play more burn than Big Zoo (although some of them like Price of Progress or Fireblast are somewhat dead), so you can also manage their creatures. In this case, I think your main concern is more the mana denial rather than Perish (since you run like 20 mana sources and they have 8 ways to deny your mana).Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
With Big Zoo, it's still a favorable matchup, but now most of your creatures are green, and you generally (but not always) run fewer removal. Mana screw is less likely to work against you, but you'll probably have to start running green creatures out there. Just don't overextend--you can usually maintain enough creature with a Nacatl and a Goyf alone to force them to block two guys a turn. They also can't beat Elspeth unless you are already getting swarmed. Since you have less removal, you'll have to point them at the guys that can really hurt you (early Lackey, Warchief, Piledriver, Siege-Gang). Alternatively, your instant speed removal really messes up their math with Gempalm, plus you can force blowouts in combat (i.e., get rid of their alpha-striking Piledrivers, then block their attackers; or kill a few gang-blockers to keep your Goyf alive).
If you're running the Punishing Fires combo and get it active, there's pretty much no way they can win. Even if you can't stick a Grove of the Burnwillow, just using it once (running it into Wasteland) or recurring a Punishing Fire once with Swords to Plowshares makes it that much harder for them.
Dauntless Escort worth it in the sb? Seems like a hell of a silver bullet for zenith lists.
Not to mention that double Library + Fetch/active Reliquary means that you can basically see 5 cards and choose from them before drawing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
You draw, then draw 2 from the first trigger, choose the best one and put 2 cards back on top, fetch and shuffle, draw other 2 cards and put back two of the 3 cards you drew this turn.
Paying life for one fo the two abilities just increases the amount of cards you get to draw/see.
I never thought of this. It's very useful actually, so thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaozy