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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I do not have a lot of experience in this matchup but the few times I did win was on the back of:
- Green Sun's Zenith paying extra mana to dodge countertop
- Casting a morphed Birchlore Rangers
And of course post-board, using:
- Cabal Therapy
- Abrupt Decay
- Enchantment hate such as Harmonic Sliver.
I never had the opportunity yet to NO into that Ruric guy, I would be very interested if somebody already tested it against Miracles...
Miracle is a broken idea in Legacy. When you can pick what you draw and put your cards back onto your library, it's crazy.
I also wish to state I was wrong. I played tonight, when NO hit the table I wanted Pro. It is back in and staying in. You might draw it yes, but that's the game you play. It's too strong a bomb to cut. If you have had your board hit with burn and you have no way to recover, well Hoof or Regal will just not do it. That back up option, it's just too useful to cut.
I do agree with you about Progenitus! The thing is that I am crazy and I consider running Ruric in addition to Progenitus against Miracles!
In that matchup I would consider cutting Hoof because rather it is Terminus, Countertop, early StP, you almost have never time to develop a big board.
So I'd rather punishing them with 6 damages each time they cantrip to find StP or whatever they need... Again, I admit I still need to test it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'm not going to fully comment on this play until I watch the match in the archives later this week or next but I fail to see how keeping Heritage around when I'll have 3 creatures and no lands is helpful. Keeping Nettle over the mana dork could have been right since it provides the fastest clock. You also don't mention me having a Visionary in play in your first line (I don't think I did but I could be wrong) and having only 3 creatures in play prevents any shenanigans with a potential Visionary since I'll either have less than 3 elves necessary for Heritage or not have a Symbiote to bounce it. I will say that I didn't put much thought into my play there, I was just waiting to react to what he put in. As it happens having the land in play was helpful since it saved a guy but perhaps there is a better line in the abstract.
In sum, your post here is somewhat confusing to me, and as such I won't be able to discern whether you have a valid criticism until I am refreshed of the facts surrounding that play. I will note that my play on Sunday leaved much to be desired due to fatigue, so a misplay would not surprise me.
I'm looking to go into my first legacy tourney this weekend running elves.
This is the deck i currently plan to run.
Lands
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
1 Wirewood Lodge
Creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Concordant Crossroads
2 Crop Rotation
Sideboard
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
2 Meekstone
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri's Archers
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Would really appreciate feedback on this deck as I'm relatively new to magic, particularly to tournaments.
Do people see any value in Pendelhaven or Wirewood lodge?
Particularly interested in feedback about the sideboard. This is still under development.
Ok lets go over this.
First, cut both Pendelhaven and Wirewood. Pendelhaven does not grant a large enough bonus to risk losing it to wasteland and Lodge? Well you have no need for it really. It costs to use, does nothing of great value, does not help your speed that much and last, if you have it in your opening has as your only land you have to mull. Since you have to do that already with Gaea its more risk for little reward.
Second. Your sideboard needs Krosan Grip. I say this because you want no response when you kill counterbalance. That one card can wreck you. Also, since you have two Crop Rotation in your deck, try Bojuka Bog as a grave hate card. You can pull it as an instant, you only need a Mana open and you have two chances with one card to pull it. If you happen to draw it, it becomes a sorcery but still an effective one. Also try running some storm hate. Ruric Thar (more an anti blue hate), Thorn Of Amethyst or Mindbreak. I dislike storm matches, I can not race them. Thar though might not be best for you since you lack Natural Order.
Try running an Elvish Champion in the side too. You will have a strong chance of matching up against decks splashing Green. It can help.
Have a look at Birchlore Rangers as a card. You might not notice it at first, but they can do some cool stuff to speed you up. Also, Concordant Crossroads is not the most effective card in this deck. In short you either need it in your opening hand or its most likely going to be a dead draw when your comboing out. Not great. If you want to play the "Haste" route, personally I would think that something like Vitalize would do the trick. Untapping everything for one would be better than the chance of haste in the early game. Really in my opinion, thats a good slot for Birchlore.
Last, if you do not have the money to get Natural Order, look for say two Weird harvest. The tricks you can play with that thing, its effective. NO is better but if you don't have it, WH is a nice fit if you can not just fetch out Regal Force.
Good luck.
Dice.
Elves players, who else is going to STL this weekend? I'll be the one rocking the plaid sleeves. They've gone to plaid! If you see me, stop and say hey.
Last tournament i played against UW Miracle - have some Dudes and cast Natural Order (enough for Craterhoof Kill) - my opponent has only fetch, land, land, senseis. I cast Natural Order, he thinks and let it resolve. I remember a similiar situatian against another miracle player some weeks earlier (i search regal force, because craterhoof was in my hand, he senseis into terminus, i gain nothing...) - so this time i cast Natural Order into my new Ruric-Testobjekt. My opponent read the card and flip sensei into terminus for 6 lifepoints - no other card, besides an uncommon maindeck gaddock teeg, can help in this situation more than ruric. The game goes on and - thanks to ruricīs 6 Damage - i win the race against entreat tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey_Island
With Ruric you have an additional option and you donīt need a kill setup for Craterhoof, or some Dudes for additional Carddraw with Regal Force. Only 6 Mana is also much easier to achieve, if your opponent throw heavy disruption spells at you.
Yesterday i played online against ANT-Storm Combo, i play first Turn EDIT: Deathrite Shaman/Bayou, he cast Duress and see my Hand (Heritage, Quirion, Glimpse, Land, Natural Order) and chose Glimpse (as expected), end of the Story, Turn two Natural Order into Ruric = Game Over. Any other Play (Craterhoof = only 13 Damage; Regal Force 3 Cards without 0 Mana left) does nothing in this situation. Normally if you pass the Turn against Combo you play with the Devil, with Ruric you are in a much safer position.
Regal Force is a very good Support for your Combo - Ruric is like an stand alone Force against some decks (Stormcombo, Tempo).
Regal Force is still a solid Option - with Ruric Thar, the Unbowed you have an alternative - this guy is like an new experimental weapon in our arsenal.
Maybe Terrastodon can help in this situation too by hiting opponent's lands. Playing around Terminus is tough.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
This is exactly why I like Ruric. But I can't see how you make 4 mana on your second turn to cast NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I would say he topped a Nettle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangente
This is very interesting thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
So, if I understood it well, you play with a maindeck Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, a Regal Force and a Craterhoof Behemoth? What is your sideboard?
Oh sorry - remembered it wrong - i start the Game with Deathrite Shaman - so Quirion Ranger was the key, to untap Shaman. So no additional Topdeck Luck, just a good Hand and the right Mainboard Weapon for this Situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangente
@Terrastodon yeah he can help also, but the opponent can block 3 additional Turns and Terrastodon is much harder to cast by itself and doesnt work well against Storm Combo etc.
Ok guys, after I got slapped hard last week I have done some editing. I want to post my list here and see what your thoughts are. I just added Pendelhaven and Thar is still in the post. Hope to have him by my game on Tuesday.
So here is the list:
Critters:
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Progenitus
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Instants/Sorceries
2 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
Lands:
6 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Banefire
1 Crop Rotation
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Elvish Champion
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Reasons for odd choices:
Karakas might seem like an odd choice, it use to be main deck on my goblins but I have shifted it. The reason is I can get to if much faster in this deck and it is a wonderful counter to SnT and Reanimator. Both decks are played locally, SnT more than Reanimator.
Banefire I did have main deck to start with. It acted as an alternate win if I needed it when comboing out. Now I have since taken it to the sideboard but I still think I need it, even if it is only for dealing with one deck. Locally I have a single 42 land deck. Now while this deck is not as likely to fall to Pendrell Vale as my goblins are, they both have the same weakness to Glacial Chasm. Having a card that plays around Banefire is useful. Adding it in when playing against other players that might have Ensnaring Bridge or another answer to a swarm is useful too. It all else fails it makes good spot removal on a Batterskull token.
Latest change:
I have cut my one Priest of Titania for another Crop rotation. The reason I did this was to increase my ability to grab out the utility lands I use like Bog in a matchup that might call for it. It can fetch Gaea too should I need it. My only real bad feeling I have is since I at this moment only have one Archdruid, and Pendrell Vale is a possible issue locally in a deck that runs Wastelands, I might end up putting her back in.
Anyway, thoughts? Idea's?
Dice.
1) no Hoof
2) only 3 GSZ
3) too less initial-mana-elves
3) less than 3 Cradles
4) Banefire (rather run 2 hoofs if you fear Seords to Plowshares)
5) no DRS
I am not really a fan, saying that I have not had much time with him but he seems like a card you want in your hand the turn after you combo. I switched him with Emrakul so everything got "Haste". Thats my thoughts, just let me know if I am wrong on this and why. I would also like to hear other reasons for Hoof. Always seemed like a "Win more" card than a win card tho. Again I know I might be wrong and I am fully open to new points of view. I was wrong about cutting Progenitus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I have seen this done in other places. When I was putting in my second Crop rotation I cut it. Can go back in if I find I miss it too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I only own two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Hoofs does not help me against Glacial Chasm. If anything it is just another dead draw. This is one card in the deck to deal with a local meta issue. If this comes out it will only be to add another card that fixes that issue. If I was going into a comp I would not run it but at the shop, I think it is a needed addition to the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Don't own them nor do I have the money for the duals that make it the most useful. Fact is, a lot of the more expensive cards in this deck were cut from other decks I own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You win the turn you cast Hoof. There's no passing the turn. You cast/NO/GSZ for Hoof, untap some creatures and smash. Emrakul however ONLY works during Glimpse turns because it's not randomly fetchable with GSZ or NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
No offense but from what I read it seems you never played with Hoof or experienced its power. The setup for a Natural Order into WIN is so little with Hoof, I hardly ever even have to use a Glimpse for it. Turn1 Dude, Turn2 Dude-Dude-Dude, Turn3 Hoof will most of the time be enough, especially with the 4 Cradles and the new Legend rule.
Hoof actually does everything Emrakul does + a little more. At half the cost while also being green. The question is not Emrakul vs. Hoof but 1 Hoof vs 2 Hoof.
None taken, you are correct. I will run it tuesday and see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Hoof is green (Zenit / Natural Order), Hoof has Haste, Hoof gives all your elves a big push and trample, hoof cost less manaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Emrakul is absulte dead, until you get a good combo turn and can achieve 15! mana - if your opponent plays enough disruption, you are unable to reach the Emrakul Kill. With Hoof, you often need only 4 (Natural Order) Mana, and some Dudes which is much easier to achieve than an full glimpse-combo turn. The fact that Hoof has Haste and gives other Creatures a big Pump, compensates the Emrakul-Extra Turn very good.
Glacial Chasm? I think this is less relevant than Moat/Humility which are also very uncommon these days. Deathrite Shaman also helps a lot, if you can't attack. If an uncommon land is really a proplem, terrastodon, woodfall primus, acid slime are sideboard options.
I know you mentioned you don't have them but Deathrite Shaman is a really elegant solution to Glacial Chasm. Use it like a machine gun! With 1 Quirion Ranger or Wirewood Symbiote in play, DRS makes your opponent lose six life per turn, given there's enough food for it.
That is true, but the black Mana needed can only be found for me by Birchlore Rangers. To make the most out of it you need Black duals and I just do not have the money for even one of them and a fetch right now. As time goes on I do see Deathrite in here, but I have only had the deck a week right now, I cleaned out all my spare cash getting the two Cradles I have and have no room to move on anything that costs more than about 5 bucks right now. I mean if I was to draw up my dream deck I would have Sharman and Beck in it. These are future plans though as Tax return time comes around a uni break gives me time to work more.
I am going to play Hoof this week though. Lets see if I can make him work. Maybe the red player in me that likes to take a hammer to every issue likes Emrakul but I am more than willing to try things out.
Woodfall Primus I like the look of, I like Terastodon a whole lot more though. I will grab Tera and try it in the place of Bane, drop a Taiga and Birchlore Rangers. With the Ranger cut I am unsure if I will add another Green Sun or Fyndhorn. I really want both in the deck, I just don't know what to cut.
Thank you all for your advice. It is useful to get the views of others that have more experience with this deck than I do. I will take all idea's on board.
Dice.