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Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and discard seem strong right now. A Rock-style build seems good given the trends of the current metagame.
Personally, I'd drop the nobles for Shamans, and beyond that it's up the the air for what to and how to add the cards.
Not to bark up the wrong tree here but might it be that the decline in good results at North American tournaments is that the deck has a weak player base? I have watched a couple of games on ggslive/blip.tv etc and some pilots seem to be quite weak navigating this deck. I also see quite a lot of weak builds when checking what decks that place in tournaments, builds with Fauna Shaman, Aven Mindcensor, Batterskulls etc. I see no problem what so ever beating Miracles or RUG with this archetype if you just know how to play against them and build properly.
I agree that Abrupt Decay and dealing damage with Deathrite Shaman look good on paper, but 2 forests and 2 plains look better than 2 Bayou and 2 Scrubland against RUG if you get my drift. All changes to this deck means in the end that you get stronger against some decks and weaker against others. For instance, if you know how to play around Daze/Pierce (quite easy in our manaramping deck) how hard is it really to resolve a Swords to Plowshares or Umezawa's Jitte to win against RUG? Or how hard is it to resolve a Elspeth, Knight-Errant vs a deck like Miracles after sideboard when the only counter magic they have is 2 Counterspells and 4 Force of Will (given they dont board these out aswell)?
Maybe I come of a winning streak and have my hopes up, I am just saying, build your deck without the fancy sh1t and just go for the win. Resolved Elspeth or resolved Knight of the Reliquary without forest in play and those two matches are over.
Furthermore I am going to pack 1 Gaddock Teeg main and 2 in sideboard from now on. Also will keep 4 Noble Hiearch and go to 1 Birds of Paradise and 1 Deathrite Shaman (for mana/life) to get my plainswalkers out through Thalia. You guys splash black and remember to take your comments to the ROCK-thread if you do.
I mean, trying to discuss the worth of a black splash (ie, playing a more rock style deck) should be a valid point of discussion in the thread. I mean, in Stoneblade or Miracle decks splashing colors is certainly acceptable, and basically what the above posts are saying is that having some more board control as opposed to just aggro might be a good thing. That is hardly an out of line discussion on this thread, especially since the thread is titled "GW/x Maverick."
Sure, a splash is interesting to discuss. When does a splash become a third colour though? 4 spells, 8 spells, 16 spells? What makes the difference between Junk and Rock?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I feel that if there are ways of making G/W-better instead of looking into other colours to make it better, those options might be more interesting to discuss at first hand. Remember that one of the strongest things about G/W is that it plays two colours. There is a reason why zoo or junk isn't placing very well consistently.
Well, GWB decks have been doing very well recently. Check out some results at TC. If I'm not mistaken, two Junk decks split the finals at NELC last week.
I think black is good right now, I think Thallia isn't as strong as she used to be. Mav placed well with Punishing Fire, placed well with Thalia, there are lots of flex spots in the list. As for Mav vs Junk, I think if you see Mox Diamond and Bob it's Junk, or at least enough Junk that it probably should be on the Junk thread. If it's GSZ package then I feel like it's still Mav, but at the end of the day they are KOTR decks that want to play somewhere in the mid range. As to the comments above,I don't think the play skill is really hurting the mav success rates. Its possible, but it seems unlikley. I just thinnk the meta has shifted against it with more control deckss runnning sweepers and the swarm aggro decks making shaman style combo mav really hard to play. Mav is more popular in Europe, and that shows up in the results, but I think the win/loss mu ratios shake out pretty similar.
I do completely agree with the amount of screwing around with Fuana Shaman builds etc. The deck can get over toolboxed and then it runs into trouble. I am nervous about the mana base in this list, 4 basics is probably better, but then you get to play some really powerful cards. I don't know, everything is a trade off. This is a much more aggro build that I am hoping meets Goblins head on, provides a serious clock with a threat base too diversified to swords out as well as being lethal with only one or two creatures on the field, thus forcing terminus out.I playtested about 20 games preboard and post vs Miracles. It seems like it was a 4-6 dog preboard and then 5-5 post. That's livable. Stands up to SNT and Storm decks pretty well and is favored vs RUG maybe even a little more with the synergistic GY disrupt. Anyway, this is a Beta test of what G/w/b Mav could look like. If you want to Junk it out then swap the GSZ package for Bob X4 and Top X3. I don't know if this is optimal but it seems to be ok.
Anyway, my testing so far has been limited. I played Sneak Show and won 2-0, Angel got game 2. Ive gone 2-1 vs BUG Delver decks, if they don't run stifle it feels like a cakewalk. I lost in 3 to hard core control Junk, but that really could have gone either way, all close games. Lost to high tide once, don't know if that means much. I want to get some games in vs Esper, I feel like Shaman eating swords is really good there, though this list is in trouble vs Perish which many still run. I'm better off vs the Supreme Verdict style decks as Teeg gets me real mileage there. If supreme verdict begins to solidly replace Perish, I think that mu will only get better and I don't think it's bad now.
With Thalia out I get t2 choke with out too much stress and resolving PW has never been so easy, both good points, though I don'd know if it's enough to merit the change.
This is what I have been messing around with.:
G/w/b Mav
Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X3
Verdant Catacoms X3
Savannah X3
Scrubland X2
Bayou X3
Karakas X1
Maze of Ith X1
Plains X1
Swamp X1
Forest X1
Green-10-
Green Sun’s Zenith X3
Tarmogoyf X4
Scavening Ooze X1
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1
White-8-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X3
Elspeth, Knight Erant X1
Gold-13-
KOTR X4
Deathrite X4
AD X3
QP X1
Gaddock Teeg X1
Black-4-
IOK X2
TS X2
Artiacts-2-
Umezawa’s Jitte X2
You can run Junk with both GSZ and Bob, you know. Come over to the Junk thread. We have goodies.
-Matt
Ok ok i'll be over in a minute:)
I've been testing the following list, to a good success. The sideboard is pretty tuned against Miracles, which has been giving some GW players some headaches.
The list:
Lands [23]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
Dudes [25]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Stoneforge Mystic
Others [12]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard [15]
3 Pithing Needle
3 Armageddon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
The boarding plan is usually this: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Stoneforge Mystic-> +3 Armageddon, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Armageddon wrecks them good. If you got anything that can deal 3+ damage per attack phase, you can use Armageddon without problems (works better when they're tapped or half-tapped). Pithing Needle on Sensei's Divining Top and Jace, the Mindsculptor is awesome, as well. They are a lot less scary without Top. I've been using Thrun in Elspeth's slot, but Thrun fly away with Terminus, so it was cut. Elspeth isn't a big deal as a 1-of, but when she comes, she's fine.
Moved the #2 Gaddock Teeg to mainboard, as the first one dies OFTEN. Moreover, added Sword of Fire and Ice and 1 Stoneforge Mystic to grab it. Scryb Ranger is good, but she only diserve 1 slot main deck.
Questions: Should I cut the sword and Stoneforge for Jitte #2 and 1 Elspeth? I don't like the Planeswalker in some matches, but she's fine against control.
Should Surgical Extraction be something else? Tormod's Crypt maybe?
Should Path to Exile be upped to 3, or 2 is good enough against RUG?
Hi, I'm planning to play this list on next sunday.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith
SB:
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Choke
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
What do you board in/out against UW Miracle, UWx Stoneblade, Maverick, RUG? Should I bring Surgical Extraction in against Miracle cause you can mess up their miracle spells with that?
I'd go main -1 Batterskull, +1 Sylvan Library and side -1 Choke, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper.
Batterskull isn't very nice with no SFM on the table, and Safekeeper protects Teeg like a boss, wich is very relevant against Storm and Miracles.
Against RUG Tempo I like additional removal, Choke/Loam. Irrelevant creatures can go out (SFM is not that good, nor is a second or third Pridemage - keep one for potential Mind Harnesses).
Against the mirror you want removal, and things that mess up their creature abilities. You don't play much for that, so I suggest you do all you can to win game 1 and stall out game 2. :eek:
Against Miracles you want to stick and protect a Teeg. Alternatively Planeswalkers can win games for you. I don't like Surgicals here. Timing them is hard (it's not like they will Personal Tutor for a Terminus, so you never really know when they have something). Surgicals are better against Rest in Peace combo, because they tend to play many Entlightened Tutors.
Against StoneBlade you can try Surgicals for Snapcaster targets, and perhaps Oblivion Ring to eat Jace.
Surgicals are also good against miracles. You can shuffle away their terminus if you see they are preparing to wipe the board. Extracting their StPs is always blasting also. Krosan grip is good at blowing their SDTs. They usually side disenchants against theoretical chokes and thus can destroy pithing needle. I'd side out umezawa's jitte and qasali pridemage. Mystic is good at finding your sword and putting it into play, so why siding it out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Why side out Pridemage against Miracles?
They tend to play Counterbalance and sometimes Shackles.
I'd take out a selection of Scavenging Ooze, Stoneforge Mystics and Jittes.
Surgical for StP could work. But against good players it'll prove really hard to use Surgical to stop Terminus.
Counterbalance should not be a problem if you run Caverns and Zeniths and usually is sided out. Have not ever heard about Shackles in miracles. Even if you're playing against a pro, a SE will always find a target, be it Brainstorm or something in responce to Snapcaster.
Come to think of it, against Miracles we have quite a number of cards that don't really do much.
StP usually has very little targets, apart from Entreat tokens, but they come in great numbers, so one StP won't do much good.
Probably there's space enough to side in half your board anyway, so Surgicals should definitely come in as well then.
I just want to nip the bud before it grows any bigger.
Do not play Rest In Peace in your Sideboard.
If I need to explain why, then you need to re-read from Page 1.
you can...you will just have 4 2/2 cards that help you search landsQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
While we're at it, why not throw a Moat in there too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Who does this? Hurts my eyes to read something like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
By the way, should I post another report here or do you still think that G/W without the black splash is worthless? I wont bother if you're not interested. Went 4-0 tonight against Zombardment, Spiral Tide, Goblins and OmniShow.
FWIW, my current SB tech against Miracles:
Krosan Grip
Gaddock Teeg (1 main, 1 SB)
Luminarch Ascension
Stony Silence
Choke
Armageddon