[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by winglerw28

EDIT: To clarify, Crucible of Worlds is better than Loam but not because Loam is bad - they do different things. Loam is actually great WITH Crucible since you have Ruins, Eye of Ugin, and Academy Ruins, but the deck can't fit both and Loam is far more awkward with Eldrazis.

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This is precisely why my experimental Loam-based list had to drop Eldrazi. But that's why I went with Steel Hellkite and Sundering Titan as threats (other than Ugin) rather than something like Titania. You can use Academy Ruins to recur either of them, and Haven also recurs Hellkite. Hellkite in particular seems the right call for this type of build. Aside from the quasi-Deed effect when it connects, he also uses colorless mana for firebreathing.

I still haven't had time to do testing to determine whether that list is any good...

Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time.

After some testing in real life, I found that the list I had didn't solve some of the holes in the deck that I had set out to fix, the primary one being early in the game against a delver player (BUG being the most difficult) where you stall out and have no permanent answer to the efficient and fast creatures being thrown onto the board. Some games you get lucky and get EE and some games you go over the top, and the list I was testing definitely felt like an improvement but began using the Graveyard to such a degree that Deathrite Shaman was actually a major annoyance. I really wanted a solution to that type of situation to build upon Maze of Ith, so I decided to try Punishing Fire when I got home. Testing it on Cockatrice, it definitely feels like the right call. In addition, I think Tim (and others) were correct in trying to convince me to use Primeval Titan. Even though it isn't necessary, Exploration + Primeval Titan will just sometimes close out games before they start against anyone trying to play fair. Another card I felt like the deck really wanted was Petrified Field, which is mostly to go with Intuition because Titania was somewhat clunky.

I think that some more work needs to be done, but let me tell you one thing - it feels pretty darn good to have access to Krosan Grip + Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast + Bane of Progress out of the board against Omni-Tell. I am going to hold off posting any more updates to the deck until after I play it next Tuesday - I don't want to spam the thread and I don't want to give too much secret tech to the other people at my shop who know I post here. :smile:

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time.

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Congrats! It seems like the proactive anti-combo hate approach has worked well for you, I see. I really wish I could try this build at my local, but I only own two Candelabras. :frown:

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time.

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Are there any changes you would make yet? That list piques my interest (although 250 tix for the missing cards is kinda hefty), especially since the MODO programmers can't be assed to fix the bug of Vesuva copying Cavern (copied Caverns can't tap for colored mana).

Why a 2/2 split between Ugin and All is Dust? Wouldn't be a 3/1 better, since Ugin also doubles as wincon?

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Originally Posted by Barook

Are there any changes you would make yet? That list piques my interest (although 250 tix for the missing cards is kinda hefty), especially since the MODO programmers can't be assed to fix the bug of Vesuva copying Cavern (copied Caverns can't tap for colored mana).

Why a 2/2 split between Ugin and All is Dust? Wouldn't be a 3/1 better, since Ugin also doubles as wincon?

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I can't think of any changes right now. The list has been running incredibly smoothly.

The main reason for the 2/2 split is mana cost. The extra 1 (or 3 with the Eye) is surprisingly relevant in a few key situations:

1. You can consistently hit 7 on turn 3 without Exploration or Candelabra, but not 8. This is huge for being able to wipe the board against Elves.

2. An extra turn (and land drop) can make the difference against Blood Moon. This is more paper for me, as there's several good Dragon Stompy players in my area.

3. Sometimes you're behind with a board Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost, Eye. The extra 3 mana is huge here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

I can't think of any changes right now. The list has been running incredibly smoothly.

The main reason for the 2/2 split is mana cost. The extra 1 (or 3 with the Eye) is surprisingly relevant in a few key situations:

1. You can consistently hit 7 on turn 3 without Exploration or Candelabra, but not 8. This is huge for being able to wipe the board against Elves.

2. An extra turn (and land drop) can make the difference against Blood Moon. This is more paper for me, as there's several good Dragon Stompy players in my area.

3. Sometimes you're behind with a board Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost, Eye. The extra 3 mana is huge here.

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I bought the missing cards and played a few games to get a feel for the deck. So far, it seems pretty impressive.

Any tips regarding boarding strategies? What do you board in what match-up?

I'd like to take it to a Legacy DE sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Barook

I bought the missing cards and played a few games to get a feel for the deck. So far, it seems pretty impressive.

Any tips regarding boarding strategies? What do you board in what match-up?

I'd like to take it to a Legacy DE sooner or later.

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Storm
-3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 All Is Dust, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+4 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction +4 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: Tabernacle stays in to hedge against Empty the Warrens. This is a terrible matchup game 1, but very winnable postboard. Be patient and save Crop Rotation as a response to Past in Flames.)

Miracles
-3 Exploration, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone, +1 Surgical Extraction

Elves
-3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: I board out Maze because it's not going to save you from a Craterhoof stampede, and you usually have enough time to wipe their board if they're just swinging in with some Elves for a few turns.)

RUG/BUG Delver
-3 Exploration
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: This is more for when you are on the play. Surgical comes in primarily for Wasteland, with Force of Will as a secondary target. On the draw, the initial configuration is actually best. Exploration helps overcome tempo lost from their Wastelands and using early land drops for Maze. Bojuka Bog can come out if they don't appear to be playing Snapcaster or Nimble Mongoose.)

UR Delver
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip
(Note: You can bring in additional Spheres instead of Grips if they aren't playing Eidolon, although be careful of Null Rod if you do. Spheres are definitely at their best on the play.)

UWR Delver/UWx Stoneblade
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip

Dredge
-3 Pithing Needle, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: One Maze is left to answer a large Grave Troll if they go that route. I'm still not sure about cutting them for Surgical in the non-manaless matchup, as they do well at dealing with Ichorids. In the manaless matchup, however, it might even be worth bringing in the full set of Spheres, as Sphere + Tabernacle is a straight-up hard lock if you can deal with Ichorid.)

Reanimator
-1 Tabernacle, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: Pithing Needle is a difficult cut here, but their only target is Griselbrand, although granted it's a strong one. That said, Krosan Grip is more important because it can take out Animate Dead, as well as the Pithing Needles and/or Null Rods they are likely to bring in against you. The only card you really need to truly fear in this matchup is Tidespout Tyrant, as neither Maze nor Karakas can stop it from wrecking your board.)

Sneak and Show
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

OmniTell
-1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Sphere of Safety, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst possible matchups. Game 1 is almost unwinnable unless you can drop Ulamog (blowing up a land) or Emrakul on turn 3 or 4. And it's still pretty bad after board.)

Lands
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Maze of Ith, -2 All Is Dust
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst matchups, although it has actually improved since they started playing Dark Depths, since you can use your own Thespian's Stage to copy their Depths. Concede immediately if they establish a recurring Wasteland lock. Time is very much a factor. Postboard, Surgical is there for Loam and/or Wasteland. Pithing Needle priorities are Wasteland --> Engineered Explosives --> Ghost Quarter. I leave in one Maze for Marit Lage in case they've already destroyed our Karakas.)

Death & Taxes
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Karakas*
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: This is the most difficult of the "fair" matchups, especially because the only maindeck answers to Phyrexian Revoker are Ulamog and Ugin's +2. I keep going back and forth about cutting Karakas in this matchup. On one hand, it slims you down to 60 and you can usually copy theirs. On the other hand, you don't have access to Karakas unless they have one out.)

Infect
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Tabernacle
+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Sphere of Resistance* (on play) / Mindbreak Trap (on draw)

MUD
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Ugin
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

Hopefully this gives you more a sense of what the board is trying to do. One of the main things to remember is that Exploration is an easy cut in matchups where speed isn't as important as what you need to bring in. Ulamog isn't a pleasant cut, but he isn't as important when you don't need spot removal and speed is critical.

EDIT:

Jund
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: Surgical is there primarily for Wasteland. Loam + Wasteland is the primary thing to worry about after boarding.)

Shardless BUG
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Krosan Grip
(Note: Primary Surgical Extraction target is Force of Will, as resolving a board wipe is often game over for them. Krosan Grip takes out Sylvan Library, an artifact creature, and the occasional Null Rod.)

Grixis Delver/Pyromancer
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: I believe this matchup should play similar to the UR Delver lists, but with less burn and more discard. I'm not exactly sure on this one, as I haven't played against it very much or even seen many lists. Most of the lists that I found were Modern, which isn't that helpful.If someone could point me to some good lists to study, that would probably help.)

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

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Originally Posted by Loxmatii

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

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While I'm not Booze Cube and maybe can't answer the questions the best, here's the general breakdown:

1. An artifact creature with little protection can't do much fast enough against most decks you are thinking of siding her in to help. Platinum Angel is a good card, but not as good as it can sometimes be made out to be.

2. Sensei's Divining Top is NOT by any stretch a main card in Mono-G Post. In BoozeCube's version, it's Ancient Stirrings. In other versions (namely Snow-Post), it's Green Sun's Zenith.

3. Dark Depths does not tap for mana. He already runs 6 lands that don't tap for mana (1 of those eats another land) and nine that come into play tapped. There's only so much room for non-mana lands. In addition the Thespian Stage route sets the player back significantly by removing two lands for the board... and Lage is more fragile than Kozilek, which makes the investment not worth the effort at least in my book.

4. What's worth putting in with Eureka? There's Ugin, accelerating out a hand full of lands, and not much else. The majority of reason for playing the Eldrazi in this kind of deck is their cast triggers, and when I mention Ugin, I'd rather Ultimate him than cast Eureka.


There are cards I'm curious about opinions on: namely Karn Liberated, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle is an important one because I've noticed in my testing that there are times I top into three lands, which I really, really want to burn through faster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Storm
-3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 All Is Dust, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+4 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction +4 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: Tabernacle stays in to hedge against Empty the Warrens. This is a terrible matchup game 1, but very winnable postboard. Be patient and save Crop Rotation as a response to Past in Flames.)

Miracles
-3 Exploration, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone, +1 Surgical Extraction

Elves
-3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: I board out Maze because it's not going to save you from a Craterhoof stampede, and you usually have enough time to wipe their board if they're just swinging in with some Elves for a few turns.)

RUG/BUG Delver
-3 Exploration
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: This is more for when you are on the play. Surgical comes in primarily for Wasteland, with Force of Will as a secondary target. On the draw, the initial configuration is actually best. Exploration helps overcome tempo lost from their Wastelands and using early land drops for Maze. Bojuka Bog can come out if they don't appear to be playing Snapcaster or Nimble Mongoose.)

UR Delver
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip
(Note: You can bring in additional Spheres instead of Grips if they aren't playing Eidolon, although be careful of Null Rod if you do. Spheres are definitely at their best on the play.)

UWR Delver/UWx Stoneblade
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip

Dredge
-3 Pithing Needle, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: One Maze is left to answer a large Grave Troll if they go that route. I'm still not sure about cutting them for Surgical in the non-manaless matchup, as they do well at dealing with Ichorids. In the manaless matchup, however, it might even be worth bringing in the full set of Spheres, as Sphere + Tabernacle is a straight-up hard lock if you can deal with Ichorid.)

Reanimator
-1 Tabernacle, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: Pithing Needle is a difficult cut here, but their only target is Griselbrand, although granted it's a strong one. That said, Krosan Grip is more important because it can take out Animate Dead, as well as the Pithing Needles and/or Null Rods they are likely to bring in against you. The only card you really need to truly fear in this matchup is Tidespout Tyrant, as neither Maze nor Karakas can stop it from wrecking your board.)

Sneak and Show
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

OmniTell
-1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Sphere of Safety, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst possible matchups. Game 1 is almost unwinnable unless you can drop Ulamog (blowing up a land) or Emrakul on turn 3 or 4. And it's still pretty bad after board.)

Lands
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Maze of Ith, -2 All Is Dust
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst matchups, although it has actually improved since they started playing Dark Depths, since you can use your own Thespian's Stage to copy their Depths. Concede immediately if they establish a recurring Wasteland lock. Time is very much a factor. Postboard, Surgical is there for Loam and/or Wasteland. Pithing Needle priorities are Wasteland --> Engineered Explosives --> Ghost Quarter. I leave in one Maze for Marit Lage in case they've already destroyed our Karakas.)

Death & Taxes
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Karakas*
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: This is the most difficult of the "fair" matchups, especially because the only maindeck answers to Phyrexian Revoker are Ulamog and Ugin's +2. I keep going back and forth about cutting Karakas in this matchup. On one hand, it slims you down to 60 and you can usually copy theirs. On the other hand, you don't have access to Karakas unless they have one out.)

Infect
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Tabernacle
+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Sphere of Resistance* (on play) / Mindbreak Trap (on draw)

MUD
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Ugin
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

Hopefully this gives you more a sense of what the board is trying to do. One of the main things to remember is that Exploration is an easy cut in matchups where speed isn't as important as what you need to bring in. Ulamog isn't a pleasant cut, but he isn't as important when you don't need spot removal and speed is critical.

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This is probably one of the best analyses I've seen on the topic of strategies, and how to. Thanks.

I was in at a Con this weekend and had an opportunity to play legacy at a tournament nearby...it was one of the weirdest legacy events I've ever played in...There was a considerable amount of Grixis decks and combo?!

Round 1 I play against grixis delver. We go to 3 games with games 2 and 3 consisting of null rod and bloodmoon. I didn’t prepare for them in game 2, so I was locked out. I was able to chain primetimes to achieve victory game 3.

Round 2 there was a lot of discard and pondering from my opponent with UBRG lands. I was able to land my wurmcoil and win game 1. The only hint of what he was playing was the lotus petal he played the turn before I won. I then got stormed out games 2 and 3.

Round 3, I land an early primetime and gain enough life to prevent my storm opponent from winning. I then got stormed out games 2 and 3.

Round 4, between the ponders, cunning wishes and ancient tombs, I realize that I'm playing against Omnitell. He eventually show and tells with 1 card in hand, puts in omniscience as I put in "yolo...Emracool!" We had cool games 2 and 3, but eventually I loose.

Round 5 death and taxes, survive multiple attacks ending at 1 point each time and eventually achieve victory.

So the real question, how the heck did I beat 3 combo decks in game 1 and lost all 6 post boarded games??? Lol! I mean I play 3x maindeck FoWs, but still!

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Originally Posted by Loxmatii

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

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Mockingbird basically nailed it. But I'll elaborate a bit more.

1) Platinum Angel is too fragile for the cost. Also, the only matchups where it really seems better than just tutoring up Chasm are combo decks that don't deal damage - namely, Storm and High Tide. And I've already got 10 very efficient cards to bring in for those.

2) I almost never want to see more than one Top in a game. Ancient Stirrings is my functional equivalent to Brainstorm. And in the context of my build, which is about 80% colorless, I'd say it's probably even more powerful than Brainstorm because it lets you see 5 cards instead of 3. Ancient Stirrings also doesn't require you to have a shuffle effect to maximize value, which is another downside for relying more heavily on Top. I've considered going up to 3x Top, but I don't know what I'd cut to make room for it.

3) Marit Lage is pretty fragile in a format with Karakas, StP, Liliana, and Jace. I don't want to spend two tutors for a combo that costs me two lands when I could just use those tutors for Cloudposts and/or Eye of Ugin. And "hardcasting" Marit Lage seems ineffecient for 30 mana when I can tutor and cast Emrakul for just 20.

4) I don't own any Eurekas, so I'd never really thought about it before. I don't think it would be a good fit for my build though. I only run a total of 6 threats -- 4x Eldrazi and 2x Ugin -- so using it as a virtual mana source for those seems sketchy, as I'd have to have one in hand. Using it to drop lands also seems inefficient, as I'd have to already have 4 lands (or 3 with a Candle) in play -- at that point, I might as well just play Manabond and dump them all on T1. Also, having double green mana early can be inconsistent for this deck, as green is really more of a splash. Also, you don't get the casting triggers, which is a big deal with Kozilek, who is already fragile but relatively cheap to cast and one of your best sources of card advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

There are cards I'm curious about opinions on: namely Karn Liberated, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle is an important one because I've noticed in my testing that there are times I top into three lands, which I really, really want to burn through faster.

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Karn Liberated -- It's not that great in my build. At 7, I'd usually rather just wipe the board with All Is Dust than Karn as spot removal. And the matchups where he is at his best are midrange/control matchups that are already very favorable. The only matchup where I'd much rather have Karn than All Is Dust is MUD, for obvious reasons.

Sundering Titan -- I used to run him, and he's definitely on the shortlist of cards that I could see bringing in from the bench. The only reason I'm not playing him now is that I don't have room. I've considered swapping him for the second Kozilek, but I think that the casting trigger is much better in a vacuum, as you always get value (unless they have a Stifle, which would screw Titan anyway). Still, I'm very open to slotting him in, especially in the right meta. But I play against too many decks where he's not as strong -- D&T, Painter, OmniTell, Elves, MUD -- to give him another shot yet.

Wurmcoil Engine -- I've tried it out, but it seriously underperformed. I almost never want to tutor for it with the Eye, since for 2 more mana you get Kozilek. And the lifegain isn't as reliable as I expected, since you have to actually attack or block with it first.

Oracle of Mul Daya -- Obviously great in a GSZ build where you can run it as a 1-2x. I'd love to fit it in, but it's so fragile and not findable with Ancient Stirrings.

I'm thinking of swapping out a Forest in my build for a Riftstone Portal. The idea is to sac it to Crop Rotation, which then grabs a relevant land while turning Mazes, Glimmerposts, Karakas, and Tabernacle into extra green sources. Downside is that it's strictly worse than a basic Forest if I don't have an extra Crop Rotation to use it with. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

I'm thinking of swapping out a Forest in my build for a Riftstone Portal. The idea is to sac it to Crop Rotation, which then grabs a relevant land while turning Mazes, Glimmerposts, Karakas, and Tabernacle into extra green sources. Downside is that it's strictly worse than a basic Forest if I don't have an extra Crop Rotation to use it with. Thoughts?

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It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost
-Corner cases where putting opponents on color happens

In Modern format, I played Sundering Titan and Urborg together in Tron for awhile, and it is a strong combination. I threw many opponents for a loop the first time I pointed out Urborg does let me kill that land (best one was Inkmoth Nexus), but it's a meta dependent environment as you say. I will say having my Eye of Ugin able to tap for ANY mana at all made a few differences I still remember, so I imagine that Urborg is worth testing should Riftstone Portal fall to lackluster results.

~~
One thing I have done while testing your deck is swap out a Forest for a Cavern of Souls. It's mostly for redundancy, but twice I've forced Kozilek to resolve. I'd have to do more testing to see how often I wish I had the Forest instead. But so far I can say it hasn't hurt, which is a start at least.

I've also been testing TheBoozeCube's list, but since I don't have 4 candles, I've replaced them with primeval titans and I've been pretty happy. I think you should try at least one titan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost
-Corner cases where putting opponents on color happens

In Modern format, I played Sundering Titan and Urborg together in Tron for awhile, and it is a strong combination. I threw many opponents for a loop the first time I pointed out Urborg does let me kill that land (best one was Inkmoth Nexus), but it's a meta dependent environment as you say. I will say having my Eye of Ugin able to tap for ANY mana at all made a few differences I still remember, so I imagine that Urborg is worth testing should Riftstone Portal fall to lackluster results.

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One thing I have done while testing your deck is swap out a Forest for a Cavern of Souls. It's mostly for redundancy, but twice I've forced Kozilek to resolve. I'd have to do more testing to see how often I wish I had the Forest instead. But so far I can say it hasn't hurt, which is a start at least.

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Good points. I forgot about the Eldrazi triggers. Riftstone is also pretty bad against DRS and Scooze. I'm still testing it out on MTGO, but I definitely won't bring it to a local yet.

I've thought about Urborg, but I've never really had much of a problem with the lands that don't tap for mana. I just figured I could get some extra value out of them, especially with on-color mana. It's an interesting thought though, and that interaction with Sundering Titan is pretty brilliant.

Cavern's another one I've considered, but never actually tested. If only it worked for tribal spells. (I used to run a Boseiju in my board for All Is Dust against Delver.) Getting Eldrazi countered just hasn't been a huge problem for me. I'd definitely rather they resolve, but I just can't justify using a tutor for Cavern when I'm already getting so much value off casting triggers. Sometimes, I'm even trying to bait a FoW with Kozilek to resolve an Ugin or All Is Dust. And even when he gets Forced, he's still a 6-for-1. But again, I've never tested it. What matchups/situations has Cavern made a real difference for you?

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Good points. I forgot about the Eldrazi triggers. Riftstone is also pretty bad against DRS and Scooze. I'm still testing it out on MTGO, but I definitely won't bring it to a local yet.

I've thought about Urborg, but I've never really had much of a problem with the lands that don't tap for mana. I just figured I could get some extra value out of them, especially with on-color mana. It's an interesting thought though, and that interaction with Sundering Titan is pretty brilliant.

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I've had a few problems with a few early game plays because Maze and Tabernacle don't make mana. However, it's been more annoyance than a debilitating setback since their effects are so powerful that I generally stall with their effects until I find the mana. For the record, I play neither Urborg or Portal currently. However, tonight's testing makes me lean more towards Urborg before Riftstone if I were to try one because I noticed generally one Forest is enough to carry the deck through the entire game with how much of the deck is colorless, so i'd just want to go for the land that's easier to set up.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Cavern's another one I've considered, but never actually tested. If only it worked for tribal spells. (I used to run a Boseiju in my board for All Is Dust against Delver.) Getting Eldrazi countered just hasn't been a huge problem for me. I'd definitely rather they resolve, but I just can't justify using a tutor for Cavern when I'm already getting so much value off casting triggers. Sometimes, I'm even trying to bait a FoW with Kozilek to resolve an Ugin or All Is Dust. And even when he gets Forced, he's still a 6-for-1. But again, I've never tested it. What matchups/situations has Cavern made a real difference for you?

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I generally haven't tutored for Cavern so far. If it shows up, bonus points. I could see seeking it to help out against heavy control or tempo/control like BUG, but Eldrazi being countered isn't much of a problem for me either. Cavern more of helps rake in "Oops, I win" moments that counterspells with no other answer behind them would otherwise take away.

The situation that is most fresh on my mind where Cavern was less of a trick and more of necessity is when I pushed a Kozilek through against Merfolk, which made a difference. And that situation is generally I envision where Cavern matters most: aggressive decks that save counters for crippling moments. I don't know what would have happened if Kozilek was countered, but I needed the body and annihilator to throw off pressure from the mounting merfolk army. And it worked. 6-for-1 is a lot less impressive when I was otherwise on a two turn clock, and aggro-control players that know what they're doing understand that.

TheBoozeCube, i think that comparing strirrings and brainstorm is not very right. Brainstorm can help you to imrove your hand. For example you have heavy spells. and you need quick start. you play brainstorm. Bring good cards. Put two bad cards on top. Then fetch, or map, or crop etc

now i am testing your build quiet a lot. Very intersting and solid list. But for me a little bit strange several things. After more tests i will ask some questions

thks for a great job!:wink:

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost

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Also some more food for thought....

Blood moon and Urborg will make them produce Red only.
Blood moon and riftstone portal in the graveyard will still allow your lands to produce Green and White.