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I don't think a judge would explain it that way. As far as I know you can stack the triggers, and shuffle with said effects to see another three cards, not two. You look at the top three, rearrange them, and draw for the turn, or you can pay four life to draw the ones you put back. One trigger would have to resolve, otherwise, they'd just overlap. And that's where a shuffle effect would make it extra nice.
At the beginning of the draw step, before anything happens and anyone gets priority, you draw a card.
Then the Sylvan Library triggers would go on the stack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Comprehensive Rules
So, you'd look at four a turn with Library? The first you draw, and the next three you look at/draw with Library?
If you have 2 Libraries, per the example:Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
Beginning of draw step, you would:
1) Draw a card
2) Both Library triggers go on the stack
3) You get priority.
Ok, so assuming your opponent doesn't have any fast effects to play during your draw step:
First Library trigger resolves. You can then choose to draw 2 cards (SL is a may effect). If you do, you have to put 2 out of the cards drawn this turn (so 3 right now because of the one you naturally draw at the beginning of your draw step) back on top of your library (assuming you aren't paying life).
You get priority back.
So say you want to see more cards, so you keep your best card of the three. Now, if you have a shuffle effect, say a KoTR or fetch land, you use it to shuffle up your library.
Now, when the second Library trigger resolves, you can see 2 new "fresh" cards.
So, I thought it might be time to register here. And since I'm here, I thought that I might as well try putting my own Zoo list up for criticism:
Lands (21):
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
Creatures (27):
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader
Others (12):
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard:
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
I just ordered a playset of Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm not really sure about what to cut for it. Mirran Crusader is in there for 3 reasons:
1. Pro-Goyf and black removal.
2. Doesn't die to Perish.
3. If equipped with Jitte, can swing for 20 damage after hitting anything once.
So those two shouldn't go. Also, I am absolutely terrified of combo, and I'm not sure how to combat it. The Leylines are useful, but vulnerable. So any ideas on the sideboard?
I'd probably start cutting Elspeth. I really never liked her that much. The Umezawa's Jittes could as well go to the sideboard, but maindeck they're still fine I guess. The next thing is Grim Lavamancer. I feel he's just getting worse and worse, even against tribal he's not as strong as he used to be. You should also maindeck one or two Gaddock Teeg if you're looking to beat combo. Being able to drop him second turn preboard helps a lot.
Actually, it seems I made a mistake. The forum differentiates between normal Zoo (This thread) and Big Zoo (My deck). Elspeth is not something I'd cut, since she is pretty much a card that has to either be answered, or she lets me win.
Anyways, don't respond to my list any more. This was my bad. Sorry.
I'm going to reply anyways. Cut crap like Oblivion Ring and Barbarian Ring for Ethersworn Canonist. Then, mulligan into it and hope your combo opponent doesn't have bounce or Burning Wish -> Answer. You also might want to move the Karakas to the main to open up another sideboard slot. Honestly though, by playing the "Big" version of Zoo, you're significantly worsening your storm combo matchup (it was bad in the first place though) in order to improve several other matchups. Which is fine right now, because unless you live in the Netherlands, storm combo isn't a particularly big part of the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Whelp
Oblivion Ring was mainly because of Show and Tell with Emrakul getting more popular here in Denmark. I will agree that it's pretty bad against... Well, pretty much anything else, because Grip takes care of those other things, and better. The Ring was a crazy idea that I had - something along the lines of burn that was fetchable with the Knight being a good thing. But I see your point. I recently acquired a playset of Canonists, so there shouldn't be a problem with those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
The Karakas isn't in main because that'd mean I had to cut a fetchland, which are probably the weakest lands in the deck since I have so many and since they are so vulnerable (Stifle etc.). Or am I wrong here?
Enlightened Tutor and Green Sun's Zenith. Play 2-3 Enlightened Tutors SB, and an Ethersworn Cannonist and Teeg. That way you have multiple ways of tutoring or drawing hate. I question the Barbarian Ring in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Whelp
Karakas is your answer to SnT Emrakul. Just put Knight of the Reliquary in off their SnT and then fetch it before they get to attack. GG. Thus, no need for Oblivion Ring. A random Karakas can often give you game one against that deck if they don't see it coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Whelp
Edit: Don't play Enlightened Tutor. This deck does not need the card disadvantage. However, GSZ for maindeck Teeg is perfectly good.
The Barbarian Ring is highly questionable, indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Yeah, i have tried topdecking Karakas against that deck, which won me the game. And right before he could attack to boot. So I do know of how useful it is. Also takes Iona. But how about the Akroma-Sphinx whose name eludes me at the moment? Is that just StP and PtE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
And I'm still wondering on what to cut for the GSZ. I know that Mirran Crusader seems obvious, but it wins games out of the blue often enough to warrant two spots. With Jitte, it's the aforementioned 20 damage in one swing after blocking/attacking once.
Enlightened Tutor is good you have the right targets. It's a great way to save SB Space, card selection is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I ran Enlightened Tutor a while in classic Zoo and I wasn't fully convinced but its definitely a card that shouldnt be dismissed right away. I'd put in 2 myself but would only use it for combo hate. In other words I wouldnt fully rely on Enlightened tutor as an answer to everything.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
An Enlightened Tutor package that includes grave hate (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, and/or Relic of Progenitus), storm hate (Ethersworn Canonist, Thorn of Amethyst, Pyrostatic Pillar), and other miscellaneous hate (Null Rod, Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon) can be very effective in swinging unfavorable matchups. Moreover, Enlightened Tutor protects against Turn 1 discard, which is nice because of lot of the relevant hate cards you're tutoring up costs 2.
However, that's a pretty weak strategy against combo decks that do run counterspells, because you're down two cards when they counter your hate. But against the likes of Storm, Dredge, and Lands, I was pretty happy when I tried out that package.
You don't need to topdeck it if you're running Knights, obviously. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Whelp
I hate messing up the manabase, but I found that a maindeck Karakas is very much worth it. If you have a Knight in hand, absolutely do not try to cast it (it might get countered), unless for some reason you are trying to bait them (i.e. you have a second Knight). Against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, it's like running five Force of Wills (4 Knights + Karakas), except it can't get countered by their own FoWs, it doesn't require you to pitch a card, and you get to dump your own fatty into play.
I actually find the matchup to be slightly favorable (unless they're running Sneak Attack and manage to get that in quickly enough). Progenitus is stil a problem if they get it out early though.
Nope, but he had killed my only Knight at that point (Well, the only one I had seen in that game), and it was really surprising that this one card could actually turn the game around - he had played two SnT in the same turn and controlled both Emmy and Iona, so I couldn't play more Knights. My only creatures were Goyf and Nacatl. But alas, it worked!Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Yeah, Progenitus. You're pretty much down to black spells if you want to get him, aren't you? Diabolic Edict, Gatekeeper, Perish...Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
If I'm playing a Natural Order deck, I will try to set a clock and aggressively burn their green sacrifice outlets--especially their mana dudes--before they ramp up to four mana. If you have enough burn, they will be unable to stick a green creature and Natural Order on the same turn unless they have five mana accessable. This is harder if they're running Wall of Roots (or Tarmogoyf, obviously requires a Swords effect).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Whelp
Hopefully, by the time they get out their Hydra Avatar, they'll be at a low enough life total and staring at enough fatties that they won't be able to attack. I find that much more effective than splashing for black.
Alternatively, if you want to stick to white, there are very narrow answers like Tariff and Retribution of the Meek. I think those are terrible, low-impact cards that don't help against too many archetypes though, so I'd say racing is better.
Another alternative is to play an equipment package. Sword of Light and Shadow will allow you to swing safely through Progenitus the very next turn after it's dropped, while doing 2 extra damage and getting you 3 life. (This means they'll probably need to swing three times with Progenitus, which is quite easy to race, especially since they can't block the first time around.) Sword of Fire and Ice won't give you an extra swing, but you're doing an extra 4 damage through Progenitus and drawing into hopefully more burn. I'm not a fan of the equipment package in most matchups, but it's a much better solution than splashing for Edict effects or running those weird white cards.
I'm going to give Orim's Chant a try in the sideboard. It's there for storm combo, but I want to test whether it's useful against Show and Tell decks. As I mentioned it above, it's great against the SnT decks that run Sneak Attack (the creatures they cheat in are "fogged" and go straight to the graveyard) and Hypergenesis (Chant in response to cascade--nice Ardent Plea you have on the board there). But it can also let you get one more chance to attack into an untapped Progenitus that they didn't see coming.
Sneak Attack with Show and Tell is quite a challenging match-up, but, as stated already, quite winnable. One card not mentioned yet which is good here is Gaddock Teeg, who is fetchable with Green Sun's Zenith if you're playing it. He takes care of Sneak Attack. The second one is Red Elemental Blast/ Pyroblast for Show and Tell, which I would play in the sideboard.
Teeg also takes care of Natural Order as well.