Care to explain? Is the additional 1 damage to the dome worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
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Care to explain? Is the additional 1 damage to the dome worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
Personally people are getting a little smarter against Forked Bolt, and Miracles is pushing Maverick/Elves out of the format a little, two matchups where you really want to see it. You will probably still want it against Goblins, but Stifle + Rough/Tumble out of the board should still help you in the matchup. The other main is Deathrite Shaman. Testing against Junk/BW/BUG, you need to recognize it as a main threat since it (1) accelerates them, (2) gets them farther from burn range, and (3) eats spells out of the graveyard. Since I would be burning a Forked Bolt for 2 on it anyways, there seems to be no reason that I can't make the adjustment from Forked Bolt to Chain Lightning anyways.
I also think Spell Snare should find itself back into the maindeck.
Snare never made the way out of my md. there were times i had a 3 pierce / 1 snare split, but i recently went back to a 2 / 2 split. i was always glad having at least one copy of them in my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
Just bringing this back up to the forefront since Mark brought it up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
Thanks Koby!
There was a month or so span where it was probably right to not play it, with so much Omniscience, etc running around. But yeah. My list that I had been jamming was having issues with the mirror (especially because I had cut down on Tarmogoyfs anyways). Stupid metagame shifts; who said this was a stale format? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by haloquaero
I had some questions come up at my local last night that I wanted input on:
- What are you typically boarding out against Miracles/Miracle Blade? Against pure Miracles I typically cut my Bolts/Forked bolts, however against Miracle Blade I was having more trouble. Typically I leave most of my burn in against Stoneblade to answer an early Stoneforge and cut Dazes under the presumption that the game will go long and they will become dead draws. Miracle blade is an interesting case because I want all of the countermagic possible to stop an early Counterbalance but I also need to answer Stoneforge.
-Do you ever bring in Surgical Extraction against non-GY based fair decks or is this just bad Magic? For example, would you bring in Extraction against Esperblade to help against Lingering Souls or is it better to not dilute your deck?
- I kept the two following hands against Belcher (on the play both times):
Hand one - Trop, Fetch, Delver, Mongoose, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Ponder
Hand two - Spell Pierce x2, Delver, Mongoose, Waste, Volc, Fetch
Should I have mulled to Force? I realized that Stifle just doesn't get there but I kept on the assumption that I could Stifle the first Belch/EtW and he wouldn't necessarily have the mana/cards to go again.
What is your list? That would help in determining sideboard plans.
Against Belcher - I probably would have kept those on the play. Mulliganing to Force when you already have good cards to stop them seems like a losing proposition. Just Spell Pierce whatever gets them to 4 mana and you should be fine.
Here is what I was playing last night:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziveeman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
8 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
SB:
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast/REB
2 Envelop
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
- I cut burn against Belcher post-board which was a mistake as he brought in Xantid Swarms which totally blew me out. I think that in the future I will cut Library, some number of Goyfs, and Forked Bolts to bring in hate from the board instead of cutting all of my burn.
It really depends on your configuration and what you are afraid of the most. You don't want to let a SFM sneak in a Batterskull. You don't what to be facing down a Counterbalance. And most of all you don't want to over extend into Terminus or Supreme Verdict. Against straight miracles I cut Forked Bolt and Lightning Bolts. I typically bring in some combination of Krosan Grips (2), Sulfuric Vortex (1), and Red Elemental Blast(1)/Pyroblast (1) and Envelop (1-2). It depends on how my board is configured exactly. I might take out a Daze or two as well. Daze loses a lot of its impact in the mid to late game against this Miracles. But the cards I am bringing in are less versatile but hard counters for what we are actually worried about in this MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
Against a Miracleblade hybrid, your bread and butter is Nimble Mongoose. Ride that fuzzy little bro to victory. Don't let you opponent get 2-for-1s with their Terminuses or Verdicts. Force them to blow their mass removal on one of your guys. This gets you a lot of value, because you they are inclined to take a hit or two to let you develop your board. Save your counter magic and burn for Terminus, Jace, and SFM/Batterskull. This is kind of a hard call when it come to boarding... but I would probably cut some number of Dazes (maybe 2), the Forked Bolt (yea I know it kills SFM), and either a Goyf or Delver. I would bring in 2 Krosan Grips, 1 Ancient Grudge, and the Pyroblast/REB and possibly the Envelop. This maximizes your lines. You don't have to counter SFM if you have artifact removal, allowing you to essentially double time walk your opponent. Pyroblast/REB move us to a more resilient counter package and also let us straight up kill Jace. Envelop is less exciting here as they probably only have 1 Entreat and 2-3 Terminus. So your other counter magic is probably fine. This is probably a bit more of a call based on exactly what you see out of the deck.
I very rarely bring in Extraction versus non-graveyard decks. It is some awesome value if you can hit a Lingering Souls but I would not count on being able to have that occur. Now and then in the mirror I will bring it in on the off-chance I can just blow my opponent out by taking his Goyfs or Trops. These are rather narrow applications. There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
These hands are fine as long as you are not playing the turn one Delver or Mongoose. A well placed Pierce or Stifle typically is enough to win this match up. I usually leave the blue source up and then ride one threat to victory maximizing my ways to disrupt my opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
Sturtz covered the first part of your question very well, so I will just leave that alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
Ziveeman and Sturtz covered the last part of your question very well, so I will also just leave that alone.
Regarding the middle part of your question:
The only time I bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks is when I want to take my burn out vs. creatureless combo. Examples of the decks that I would do this against include High Tide, OmniTell, Sneak and Show, and possibly Storm (ANT/TES if I knew they were not running Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant). The reason I will bring in Surgical is because your burn is worthless, other than a shot to the dome. This can help you close out games more quickly, especially after an Ad Nauseam or a Time Spiral or a Diminishing Returns (when they fill your hand with fresh Bolts and they are at low life). However, Surgical can also provide good information (both on their current hand and their sideboard configuration for game 3 or future matches), remove relevant cards from the game (aka Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, or High Tide), act as pseudo discard (assuming they have a card in their hand and their graveyard), mess up Brainstorms and Doomsday piles (I once won a match vs. Doomsday because I Surgicaled and made him shuffle his pile, messing up the order), and Surgical has 0 mana cost! Against combo decks, usually your life total is irrelevant - either you are dead or you aren't, so the 2 life very rarely matters. Remember, you can Surgical in response to their draw step, so that will increase your chances of achieve pseudo-discard status and it will also make them burn mana on their turn if they wish to counter (potentially delaying their combo turn). You get great information if you do this, so you can plan out your counters and know if it is safe to drop threats or if you have to keep your mana up for counterspells.
So, yes, I will bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks if they are strong combo decks without creatures.
Isn't that like the worst usage of the card? I cannot imagine taking the 2 dmg. and not feeling extremly bad about it half of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
The importance of Goyf in the mirror shouldn't be underestimated. After all the early game mana-denial dust has settled, Canadian mirrors soon become all about who gets a goyf to stick since it dominates Mongooses throughout the entire game and can't be dealt with by any burn spell like Delver. I've seen people board out Delver in the mirror just to take their opponents Bolts worse. I don't know yet if this is correct but it tells you something about the importance of Goyf. I don't feel I'd go as far as to bring in a Surgical Extraction in the mirror, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.
I took RUG to a top 4 finish in a 33-player tournament Saturday (winning a played Force). I hadn't played Legacy since GP: Ghent, so I mostly just messed with some slots and left toward the tournament:
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Thought Scour
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
----
SIDEBOARD
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spell Snare
2 Trygon Predator
Notes: definitely like 3 Force main. I feel like I want to change one Spell Pierce for somethign else but I can't seem to think of a good replacement (Dispel/Flusterstorm is closest to what I want right now but I don't know if that's right).
Didn't have Stifles so not a Stifle-version right now, and I actually feel better playing without them, they were never superb for me.
Singleton Snapcaster was a great slot, the times he was dead in my hand did not weigh up to the times he gave me the win.
SB can definitely use some work. I need some answers vs Tribal and BUG, open to suggestions.
Congrats on the Finish!Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenC
Well lets start with asking what the main problems for the matchup are.
Goblins - Raw card advantage, faster than Thresh, Consistent, resilient to removal, unable to counter most of their spells.
Merfolk - We run Islands, Aether Vial, We don't run basics.
BUG - Haven't played the match to know anything yet.
Those are just things I remember. Anybody else care to add or give suggestions?
Let me ask you a very simple question: do you like winning? By extracting Tropical Island in the mirror you nuter 2/3s of your opponents potential threats, assuming you can get it to occur when you opponent can't fetch out another Trop (or a Tiaga...). Sure you have to have a specific sequence of plays occur to make this happen. But when it happens, you keep them off of Mongoose and Goyf while also making their deck very land light. The land light part makes fetch lands less useful and subsequently your Wastelands, Dazes, and Spell Pierces more potent.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
As for Tarmogoyf, many mirrors come down to who controls more of them. If you can Spell Snare one and then Extract it... your opponent is in a rough spot.
In general in the mirror extracting anything can be a decent play. It can nerf an opposing mongoose/goyf for a safe kill, it can remove cantrips to make opposing filtering less likely, it can take out bolts so you don't have to fear removal. So while it doesn't expressly have a reanimation or dredge based target, it can still be a fine play if you use it correctly.
Over the weekend at SCG Baltimore I used it to extract Lotus Petals in respose to a TES player casting Ad Naseum. It is a narrow line here, but as he was at under 10 life it raised the average cost of the cards he was flipping. He actually was forced to keep taking cards to finish the combo and ended up killing himself. So in some non-graveyard combo match ups it has applications.
Edit: I went 3-0-1 in the Legacy Challenge on Saturday. I IDed with a guy that I knew from the Pittsburgh area. I got 3 RtR packs and $25 in credit. I am pretty sure I could have won that last round but drawing seemed like the gentlemanly thing to do. During the Open I just got wrecked by everything. If you guys want a real report, I can write one up. I still have my notes. Just let me know.
I don't like Extracting things in the mirror. Or at all, really. When you have that combination of cards (Wasteland + Surgical) it feels great, but as you have to finagle your way to a favorable board state, you're probably falling behind. I see the merits, I just don't condone it.
Goblins - This is my general game plan against Goblins: Maintain 6 or more 1 mana answers on the play or draw for Goblin Lackey in your deck. You have to hit Aether Vial regardless. Burn Force of Will on it, or if you are still playing Spell Pierce main deck, don't play anything on turn 1. Stifle Plan: if they are Mono Red, start hitting Ringleaders and Incinerators on your Delvers. If they are Rx, depending on what you have in your hand you have the option of attacking their manabase, which has also worked out for me. It depends heavily on the experience of the pilot you are facing (for example, some newer players will keep 2 land hands, which are awesome for us), and what resources you have available to you. Just know where you are allowed to direct those resources. I haven't had a major issue with Goblins yet, although I am down to 2 Tarmogoyf in my list now. Post-board you have access to Rough/Tumble which should carry you to a pretty convincing victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodzilla
Merfolk - Not much to say here, except that you rehashed it. I cut my Forked Bolts for Chain Lightnings a while ago and I have been happy with it. You need the change if you want a better matchup against Merfolk. Delver and Goyf are your best threats against them. Since I don't board heavily, I leave in Force of Will to answer Aether Vial.
BUG - I have not played against it much, but also a reason I went from Forked Bolts to Chain Lightnings. Nothing to really split damage on except for Vendilion Clique and you need a reliable answer to Deathrite Shaman early. Also playing 1 Dismember now, since nothing in our deck really answers a Tombstalker.
I do, but I don't like boarding in possibly useless cards. SExtraction has potential to win you the game, but it could also very likely be a dead card, which is horrible in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
You seem very convinced that Extraction is the nut-tech in the mirror Sturzilla. To me the card is way to swingy & narrow to deserve a slot. Bringing a Goyf or a Trop to the yard and extracting it as long as it still matters (not beeing way behind / ahead) sounds like happening rather rare. Having "solid" cards is almost always significant.
I'd add a few notesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
In the Merfolk match-up, Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast are great options out of the board and one of the few ways to answer a leveled Coralhelm Commander outside of Dismember (which is painful and also doesn't necessarily kill it). I've also found that boarding in one to two Ancient Grudge can be helpful in this match-up since it blows up Aether Vial, and also can answer opposing Jittes if they board them in.
Regarding BUG, I've been testing Divert in the sideboard and its been very useful in that match-up. Divert is great in counterwars, against all their discard, and is awesome when redirecting Abrupt Decay (redirecting an Abrupt Decay that's been flashed back via Snapcaster Mage is the nuts). I've also moved away from Dismember because Submerge answers Tombstalker well enough in this match-up. Even if we can't live the dream like when we shuffle away Knight of Reliquary in response to its trigger, its fairly difficult for BUG to recast Tombstalker immediately since the have to Delve five to six cards to make it truly cost effective.
Against TES and UBr storm decks, do you believe there is a rational for keeping in burn to cut those decks off from Ad Nauseam? I ask because in my experience (both playing Storm and RUG), burning out your opponent seems possible given the low life totals that can those decks run into when digging with Ad Nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
----
Before going any further, I've move away from Dismember completely. Dismember was good while Knight of the Reliquary was prominent. However, Maverick players are aware of this and the players I've been going against are holding Knight until they have enough lands in their graveyard. I also believe that 3 - 4 Submerge is more than enough to deal with Knight of the Reliquary post board. If Dismember is still relevant, its likely in the Mirror since it kills Tarmogoyf. However, I don't like the idea of paying four life to kill a Goyf when a lot of RUG players are moving toward Chain Lightning.
I've been deciding between maindeck Fire // Ice and Chain Lightning as the fifth and sixth slots of removal in the deck. There's a case to made for either at this point.
Fire // Ice
Pros:
-Ice taps down large threats (Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf)
-Ice taps down an opponents mana
-Ice replaces itself
-Ice pitches to Force of Will
-Ice Taps Trinisphere (not mainstream relevant, but someone at my local shop plays MUD)
-Fire burns an opponent for 2
-Fire can two for one opposing creatures
Cons:
-Costs two mana (meaning its not a first turn answer to Goblin Lackey or Mother of Runes on the draw)
-Costs three under Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-Running two of these maindeck means there are only 4 Sorceries main deck to grow Tarmogoyf to a 4/5.
Chain Lightning
Pros:
-Its Lightning Bolt at Sorcery speed
-Its Sorceries 5 & 6 which help grow Tarmogoyf
Cons:
-Redundancy: Chain Lightning doesn't answer anything that Lightning Bolt doesn't already answer. Its "more of the same" meaning that if we assume "removal spots" 5 & 6 are to a certain extent "flex spots" (in that their meant to provide answers to things Bolt can't), then using Chain Lightning decreases the flexibility of the deck.
-"Chain Effect": an opponent is playing mountains, then are able to recast Chain Lightning targeting us, Delver, or Goyf. While this is somewhat fringe, I think its relevant in the Goblins and Burn match-ups and slightly relevant in the RUG mirror.
If the metagame shifts towards Merfolk and Goblins, then I believe that Chain Lightning is the correct choice in the maindeck.
In the Merfolk match-up, the extra damage is necessary given how many lord effects they are running. Despite boarding in Rough // Tumble, a lot of the time this isn't enough to kill their board because they have at least two lords out. If they do, its necessary to burn one lord and then cast Rough to wipe the board the rest. While Fire can accomplish this, the difference is 3 mana (Chain Lightning plus Rough) vs 4 mana (Fire plus Rough).
In the Goblins match-up, the real question is do you want/need more than eight main deck answers to Goblin Lackey on the draw? (The eight being 4 Lightning Blot & 4 Force of Will). Chain Lightning more powerful in that it kills three toughness Goblins while Fire cannot. Additionally, Ice loses some of its utility because it cannot target Goblin Piledriver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Before we waste anymore time discussing this Surgical in the mirror business, let's look at Sturtzilla's original comment:Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
He's not saying 'bring it in every game' or 'it's the stone-cold nuts.' He's saying "now and then" he will bring it in "on the off-chance" that he can use one of the "rather narrow applications." "There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there." As I understand, Sturtz plays in a smaller weekly tournament. When you are playing the same players week in and week out, it can be good to mix it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Let's just leave it at that.