[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by TLK

I top 8'd this event yesterday:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post954456

My 2 losses were to Stoneforge decks - the deck that placed 1/2 during round 4 of Swiss, and the D&T deck that placed 3rd during the Top 8. It was my first time piloting the list, so I wasn't sure what typical matchups were like, but the Stoneforge-based decks seemed rough. Batterskull in particular was a pain. I understand we have Abrupt Decay for Jitte and random Sword of X&Ys, but it's possible I just couldn't find the right answers in time. Is it just me, or are these types of matchups unfavorable? I definitely want to find room for a Maelstrom Pulse in the board, as it's also a good answer to a resolved Jace.

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I dont think stoneblade are tough decks for us cause in the end we will find inevitability with punishing fire for their batterskull and jace. Chalice for one helps a lot in locking out their key spells like brainstorm, swords to plowshares, lightning bolts (if they are on UWR), discards (if they are on esper). The only problem i foresee is them chaining TNN and equipping it with batterskull or jitte. Perhaps then you can race them with the depths combo if you are playing it.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

I dont think stoneblade are tough decks for us cause in the end we will find inevitability with punishing fire for their batterskull and jace. Chalice for one helps a lot in locking out their key spells like brainstorm, swords to plowshares, lightning bolts (if they are on UWR), discards (if they are on esper). The only problem i foresee is them chaining TNN and equipping it with batterskull or jitte. Perhaps then you can race them with the depths combo if you are playing it.

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I faced Stoneblade pretty late in GP Columbus- round 12 maybe. It was not close. Game 1 I got a Loam lock going very quickly, hit an SFM and a DRS with Punishing Fire and he never really had a chance. Game two I kept a sketchy hand and he Thoughtseized my Sylvan Library so I was stuck in topdeck mode and lost to a TNN with a Batterskull. Game three he got an early RiP which took out a fetch, a Grove and a P Fire, but I got it with a Rec Sage, got Lili and Loam online, and steamrolled him in short order after that. The key to this matchup is keeping them off double blue for TNN. I always hit Tundras because it keeps them off Swords as well. Chalice on one is pretty good, but don't go in to game two thinking it's an autowin. This is a grindy matchup that requires any incremental advantage you can get. Like the Shardless matchup, you need quality topdecks and card advantage here. I take two Chalices out, as well as a couple moxes, because 2-for-1'ing yourself is pretty bad in any stage of the game past turn 3. We want the Loam engine going here as quickly as possible. They'll probably bring in Surgical Extraction, so save those cycle lands to use in response to that or other graveyard hate. Don't decay Jitte right away if it doesn't have a guy to equip- save it for RiP or other GY interaction, then keep them off the mana they need to cast Jace and TNN, which are really their only trump cards. They might try to clique the Loam out of your hand, so look out for that. The combo is a good way to slam the door on this matchup, as they will be on the backfoot with mana most of the game and probably won't be in good enough shape to be using one of their three Wastelands on your Stage or whatever. Don't bother playing around FoW- if they keep some amount of those in, well they're probably not very good at this game. I'll take them 2-for-1'ing themselves all day long.

Regarding D&T: I faced this matchup three times on the weekend. Lost once to a pretty bad player who drew what seemed like all his revokers every game and a bunch of Flickerwisps, then beat a decent player and a very good player the other two times. I really don't like the idea of keeping in Chalice- unless we're on the play and jam it t1, it's just terrible. You should be bringing in 2 Thoughtseize, 3 StP and 1 Crop Rotation in the matchup, all of which are much better than keeping them off their own StP and that early Vial. You can turn the corner quickly and come back from very little life in this matchup- once you have a board state with Lili and some way to keep her from getting whapped with fliers you'll gain inevitability and cruise to victory. Thoughtseize is great in this matchup, as they often try to hoard creatures in their hand until they can deploy all of them at once to swarm you out. It grabs equipment too, which is great. Taking moxes out might seem like a plausible idea because it sucks when they get Flickerwisped, but I would gladly let them hit a mox instead of a Lili that's about to ultimate or a blocker when a sword is about to trigger. Don't keep a hand that doesn't have at least one hard removal spell like StP or Decay. Luckily the color of our removal gets more diverse here so an Mom can be tolerated for a while until we pull a sweeper. I really liked Volcanic Fallout being instant speed in this matchup, especially when they are trying to use Mom to prevent some amount of carnage and Port to keep you off the red. In the 7 total games I played vs D&T, not once did they use Wasteland to keep me behind on mana. It was more frequently used to get a Maze or Karakas off the table. So keep that in mind- you interact with and potentially strain their mana enough that unless they have an active Vial on 2 or 3 in play, they're probably either saving their lands to cast spells, or they're bricking their draws and dropping one Plains after the next, which is a good situation for us (and the reason why I quit playing that deck) about 85% of the time.

Perhaps I just drew poorly against the Stoneblade deck, but TNN with an equipment is rough.

I went 1-2 last night. Lost in 4 games (yes, 4) to UR Delver, which is typically an OK matchup aside from Price of Progress, which he top decked in game 4 the turn before I would've won.

Round 2 beat Landstill fairly easily. Recurring Wastelands for all of his land creatures make it a breeze.

Round 3 lost 0-2 to Storm. He Duress'd my Chalice game 1 then went off. Game 2 I mulled to a mediocre hand and lost on turn 2. I really dislike playing against Storm. I don't even get to play Magic. I just sit there and watch. Sigh.

Would Sylvan Safekeeper be worthwhile testing? A lot of people are cutting Deathrite Shaman, Safekeeper can protect critical targets like Teeg, Marit Lage, and Knight, and we can recur lands with Loam to get around his cost. It can also let us reuse Bojuka Bog and cycle lands that were played earlier in the game.

@PCottell

If your D&T opponents are not using their LD against our 4 color mana intensive deck (which can't rely on moxen anymore), then it is only polite to buy them a drink after the game. Just make sure the judge doesn't think it is collusion/bribery :p

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Thoughtseize is great in this matchup, as they often try to hoard creatures in their hand until they can deploy all of them at once to swarm you out.

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In the 7 total games I played vs D&T, not once did they use Wasteland to keep me behind on mana.

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Yeah...my friend is a very good D&T player...to be honest I wouldn't take much out of those games. They definitely shouldn't be trying to storm out their creatures. D&T needs to provide early and constant pressure to overwhelm our removal. T1 Vial, T2 Waste/Mom + Thalia, T3 Waste or Port, SFM/Revoker, T4 Flickerwisp/Crusader, etc. Giving us time to stabilize and grow our mana (without Wasteland pressure) is a terrible mistake on their part.

I would not bring in Thoughtseize. D&T is very much a hellbent deck, and while Thoughtseize can prevent their Vial tricks, it's not a good use of the slot.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Yeah...my friend is a very good D&T player...to be honest I wouldn't take much out of those games. They definitely shouldn't be trying to storm out their creatures. D&T needs to provide early and constant pressure to overwhelm our removal. T1 Vial, T2 Waste/Mom + Thalia, T3 Waste or Port, SFM/Revoker, T4 Flickerwisp/Crusader, etc. Giving us time to stabilize and grow our mana (without Wasteland pressure) is a terrible mistake on their part.

I would not bring in Thoughtseize. D&T is very much a hellbent deck, and while Thoughtseize can prevent their Vial tricks, it's not a good use of the slot.

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I have to politely disagree with you here. It might be lackluster late game, but it has way more impact than any of the 9 cards I'd be boarding out in this matchup. I would also argue that the tempo of the first few turns is so critical that thoughtseize is justified. Thoughtseize can can be the compliment to your removal by taking the thing that you are least equipped to deal with. Rest in Peace and Absolute law are very annoying cards to play against that i'd like to have more answers for in the early game since inevitability is on our side with punishing fire lock.

If finding worse cards to cut in the main is the issue, it may just be a difference in build. deathrite shaman seems like an easy cut but not everyone plays em. Here's how I'd board:

In:
3x swords to plowshares
1x garruk relentless
1x reclamation sage
1x golgari charm
1x pithing needle
2x thoughseize

Out:
4x chalice of the void
1x deathrite shaman
1x scavenging ooze
1x gaddock teeg
2x mox diamond

Hi guys long time lurker. Read a lot of different thread on The Source and went reaminimator-->miracles-->and finally aggro loam (maybe deathblade). Good thing I listened to that always proxy advice...Anyways, I was watching all the aggro loam videos I could get my lands on and GP Prague was a huge help, but the only part I could not wrap my head around was when to dredge for loam. I would cringe every time a Lili or a knight got put into the graveyard. If I got it right from reading this thread, its better to get guaranteed value like recurring wastelands or cycle lands than something you could have drawn next turn or a few turn later?

The general rule for dredging is to leave the loam in the yard if there is nothing you want already in there. If you assume that you mill no good targets, is Loam still a good draw for you in this situation?

There is a bunch of corner cases (5+ mana and a cycle land, ooze and low life total, ooze/knight and opponent 1 life away, need to draw pfire exactly this turn, clearing the top of the deck after sylvan library)

Went a miserable 3-3 yesterday. Ran the following list:

4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

Won against UR Delver, BG Turbo Dark Depths and Elves. Lost against Infect twice and Elves. Feel that post board, the mana just gets really stretched if I don't get a Mox Diamond early and that's probably due to my sideboard choices. It felt really difficult to fetch for the right lands to get GB, W, R, RR, BB and BW in the early game as the removal suite postboard. I had multiple games where I just had some removal stuck in my hand cause I didn't have the right mana to cast it even though I had fetchlands. So I'll definitely have to change some of the sideboard choices.

Was trying out the one Vindicate for fun and I was able to kill a relevant land so I think I'll keep it in the main. I like having the ability to kill a planeswalker without relying on recurring Punishing Fire. The badlands also felt super bad whenever I saw it in my hand and I never wanted to fetch it, I think I want a Plateau in it's place. I'd need to change the fetchlands around though in order to consistently fetch for the Plateau.

Man, I have been losing a lot to UR Delver.

I know, I know "Chalice this, Chalice that".

It is a rare circumstance that you can resolve Chalice unmolested.

They are all playing 4 Price of Progress and Stormchaser doesn't die to p fire. Anyone else having trouble with this matchup?

Anyone have any tips for the matchup?

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Man, I have been losing a lot to UR Delver.

I know, I know "Chalice this, Chalice that".

It is a rare circumstance that you can resolve Chalice unmolested.

They are all playing 4 Price of Progress and Stormchaser doesn't die to p fire. Anyone else having trouble with this matchup?

Anyone have any tips for the matchup?

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It's not a great matchup since they're basically Burn with counterspells in my experience. With Shardless and Jund I've found Tombstalker to be the best card against them since he doesn't die to Bolt alone or trade with Delver and Stormchaser Mage the way Strix does. Unfortunately Stalker isn't a great fit for Loam since it's not GSZ-able, but the list of playable GSZ targets with Flying or Reach is pretty short. Plows might just better tha Chalice in the matchup, especially with the addition of some incidental lifegain + value creature like Courser or Kitchen Finks?

I was thinking about trying lightning helix in the plow slot, because at least it doesnt nonbo with chalice. Other considerations are journey to nowhere, orzhov charm, darigaaz and rith's charms, fiery justice, and a ton of lifelink stuff (i just like these).

Sideboard Chandra isn't necessary for me, might replace with Choke or Ajani Vengeant, or mentor of heroes.

Have you tried jamming (T2) knight into marit lage? That usually gets the job done against that kind of deck.

The last time I played the local UR Delver guy something like 5 months ago, but he insisted I was his worst matchup. This was before the Stormchaser Mage + 4 PoP builds.

It would be helpful if you can give play-by-play for a couple games. Are you playing around PoP? Does he force each of your haymakers every time? etc etc

I have only played 1 match with my new sideboard, but Lightning Helix was freaking awesome! (match was against Grixis Delver).

The life swing is huge in these aggressive/midrange matchups. I was feeling the pressure of an uncontested Delver while I struggled to hit my land drops g2 & 3 (after he used most of his resources finding wastelands and wasting me).

Once I found the mana it felt like cheating, because I got to kill his threat and essentially Time Walk him. It also helps to make up for lost life from Bob and Toxic Deluge (which I am running now too).

I boarded out my 2 Loams, 2 libraries, 2 Bobs, and 1 Teeg for 3 Helix, 1 G Charm, 1 Toxic, 1 Engineered Plague, and 1 Choke.

The Helixes aren't as good vs Eldrazi, but I think they will still be fine there too because it often comes down to a race or weird standoff board state.

Knight into Marit often feels too slow in this sort of matchup to me, and playing around PoP is super hard with a bunch of bomby 3 drops. I leave up Wasteland when I can, but sometimes you feel the heat and have to walk into their Dazes/tap out into PoP.

As an aside, how has your Stirring Wildwood been @Apocalyps6? I really want to include a manland into my build, and I am leaning towards Stirring or Shambling.

The Wildwood is great in my build (I have much less of a black requirement)

It threatens to eat delvers and other legacy-sized creatures in case you flood out. It hits for just enough to kill Jace.

In terms of manlands in general, you can use them to "beat" removal targetting knight. They are good recurrable threats in the super grindy games.

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

I was thinking about trying lightning helix in the plow slot, because at least it doesnt nonbo with chalice. Other considerations are journey to nowhere, orzhov charm, darigaaz and rith's charms, fiery justice, and a ton of lifelink stuff (i just like these).

Sideboard Chandra isn't necessary for me, might replace with Choke or Ajani Vengeant, or mentor of heroes.

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Using helix instead of swords is the same mistake as using hymns instead of thoughtseize. You are using 1CMC cards because you need early interaction, if you are putting in 2 CMC you still lose for fast opening.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Using helix instead of swords is the same mistake as using hymns instead of thoughtseize. You are using 1CMC cards because you need early interaction, if you are putting in 2 CMC you still lose for fast opening.

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Not to mention the matchups that you're bringing in swords, you're boarding out chalice. I typically wouldn't board into swords in a delver matchup, because 6-8 removal (not including Liliana) should be plenty for a delver deck. I only really board Swords to Plowshares in against D&T, Eldrazi and Shardless Bug, where it's so midrangy that chalice for 1 doesn't really do a whole lot.

3 Decays, 3 P Fire and 3 Lili has NOT been doing it for me. You really have to answer Delver and Pyro immediately, and it isnt very hard for them to counter the knights and win with angler.

Maybe those slots are better as something else because I do enjoy chalice vs the delvers, but more removal is a must have for me.

There is not a problem with playing chalice and swords at the same time.
Think like this, if you resolve a chalice@1 you have 3 swords dead, they have 20 cards dead.
If you don't resolve a chalice you have early interaction.

Also don't be afraid to take some beats from delver if need be. The problems are usually pyro tokens or angler(can't decay).