[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Malchar

How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.

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I think Chalice of the Void is better if you're devoting slots for the Combo match up and can afford 4 slots. It can come down turn 1 at 0 which is pretty relevant at stopping Artifact mana, a later one can come down at 1 to stop Ritual and cantrip effects. Honestly, I think having something like Chalice at zero and an active Lackey or Instigator gives you a better chance at the match up than devoting your turn 2 to a Thorn, that is if they give you til turn 2.

Neither have much application outside of the Combo match up imo, so it mostly comes down to whether you feel that the amount of Combo in your meta warrants SB space. I'd venture to guess that in most metas that amount does not.

This is the list i have been toying arround with, and it has been doing awesome so far.

3#Gempalm Incinerator
4#Goblin Ringleader
1#Siege-Gang Commander
4#Goblin Matron
3#Stingscourger
3#Goblin Chieftain
4#Warren Instigator
1#Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4#Æther Vial
18#Mountain
4#Wasteland
3#Goblin Piledriver
4#Goblin Lackey
4#Goblin Warchief
// sideboard
4#Pyrokinesis
3#Relic of Progenitus
4#Thorn of Amethyst
2#Goblin Tinkerer
2#Red Elemental Blast

Also, im finding Kiki-Jiki totally awesome again, Only thing im not sure about is 3 piledrivers being neccesary, i might cut 1 for siege-gang #2 or chieftain #4. Tips about that? Also im not really sure about the sb yet.

~Maarten

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Originally Posted by Malchar

How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.

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I think you need to weigh your odds of playing combo. I rarely see it in numbers at tournaments so I dont even bother running sb cards to fight it. Especially with instigator/chieftain goblins "can" race combo unless they win turn 1-2. The last tournament I played at I faced a friend of mine playing ANT round 1. Game 1 I had him at 1 life on his third turn and he drew the shiz-nit off of brainstorm and won that turn. Game 2 he won on his first turn.

But... If I had to run hate I would choose chalice

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I think Chalice of the Void is better if you're devoting slots for the Combo match up and can afford 4 slots. It can come down turn 1 at 0 which is pretty relevant at stopping Artifact mana, a later one can come down at 1 to stop Ritual and cantrip effects. Honestly, I think having something like Chalice at zero and an active Lackey or Instigator gives you a better chance at the match up than devoting your turn 2 to a Thorn, that is if they give you til turn 2.

Neither have much application outside of the Combo match up imo, so it mostly comes down to whether you feel that the amount of Combo in your meta warrants SB space. I'd venture to guess that in most metas that amount does not.

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Actually, I find CotV useful in a number of MU's, like burn, UR Dreadstill, Tempo Thresh (usually 24 1cc spells!), and some others. Agains't some decks yoou shut down so many things setting it at 1, it is really worth it.

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Also, im finding Kiki-Jiki totally awesome again, Only thing im not sure about is 3 piledrivers being neccesary, i might cut 1 for siege-gang #2 or chieftain #4. Tips about that?

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I strongly suggest Chieftain#4 before the second Siege-Gang. (however, I'd play the second Siege Gang over the Kiki Jiki in your list, but that's another story. If you're good with Kiki, keep on rockin' with it).
Reasoning is this:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

4 Goblin Chieftain: this is the card that needs the most explanations. What are the things this guy can do for you?
- An haste man is really good with lackeys, for surprise attacks out of nowhere.
- It fights opponent's plague, pyroclasms, bolts, etc.
- It makes Instigator an attacking monster that beats for 4 and, quite often, exchanges with goyfs.
- It's a good card to drop with lackeys, unlike other low CC dudes.
- It's amazing when you can drop it out of Warren Instigator first strike damage, cause it instantly pump all your dudes, beating for a few damage more, and screwing combat math.
- It can screw combat math with an active vial too.
- the +1/+1 ability is very similar to Piledriver's ability when it comes to deal a good amount of damage to the opponent: let's look at this:

Piledriver + Warchief = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Ringleader + Matron = 8 dmg
Piledriver + Warren Instigator = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

Chieftain + Warchief = 5 dmg
Chieftain + Ringleader + Matron = 7 dmg
Chieftain + Warren Instigator = 6 dmg
Chieftain + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

As you can see, both cards usually deal a similar amount of damage. Obviously, this doesn't take into account that Chieftain costs one more, doesn't consider cases when you have 4+ goblins on board (when you have such a strong position you're probably going to win anyway, doesn't matter if you have 13 or 15 damages on board).
The examples also don't cover the fact that Piledriver might not have haste, and that chieftain grants haste to the other guys you're possibly dropping this turn.

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Click the link on the quote to further explanation. Our lists actually are quite similar, almost identical.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

I strongly suggest Chieftain#4 before the second Siege-Gang. (however, I'd play the second Siege Gang over the Kiki Jiki in your list, but that's another story. If you're good with Kiki, keep on rockin' with it).
Reasoning is this:

Click the link on the quote to further explanation. Our lists actually are quite similar, almost identical.

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Ah i see ;). I think i gonna test -1 piledriver, +1 chieftain for a while. Kikki stays i think since he is doing good stuff for me :tongue:

thanks, Maarten

Alright thanks for the sideboard information against combo. I'll try Chalice of the Void and go back to mono-red, which is my preferred build.

Here's another question: There's a good amount of aggro loam in my meta, and I have a lot of trouble against it. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong, but even with 4 Relics in the sideboard, I just can't seem to win. There's always an EE or single shot artifact removal spell to eat the relic, and then Devastating Dreams is gg.

1. How does goblins win against aggro loam. (Is it even possible?)
2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

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Originally Posted by Malchar

1. How does goblins win against aggro loam. (Is it even possible?)
2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

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Playing agains´t Agroo Loam is tuff, but it is certanly winnable. With my build, I bring in 4 Relics + 2 Boartusk Liege, which are kind of tuff to kill. You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault.
Also, you cannot over extend in the MU. Try holding some lands in your hand, and some goblins aswell. If they like, DD for 3, and they kill all your dudes and all your lands, you're preety screwed. Vial is great in this scenario. Surprise guys for free is great.
I also play with Mad Auntie, which is good cause of the regen thing, but it is not needed (and you play monoR).

PS. Other alternative is going super agressive, forcing them to try to DD in the 2nd or 3rd turn, when they can't recover that well.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Playing agains´t Agroo Loam is tuff, but it is certanly winnable. With my build, I bring in 4 Relics + 2 Boartusk Liege, which are kind of tuff to kill. You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault.
Also, you cannot over extend in the MU. Try holding some lands in your hand, and some goblins aswell. If they like, DD for 3, and they kill all your dudes and all your lands, you're preety screwed. Vial is great in this scenario. Surprise guys for free is great.
I also play with Mad Auntie, which is good cause of the regen thing, but it is not needed (and you play monoR).

PS. Other alternative is going super agressive, forcing them to try to DD in the 2nd or 3rd turn, when they can't recover that well.

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I tend to take the aggressive role in this match up. Your late game is not favored. With DD and Loam they will overpower your card advantage and board development. The easiest way to take the lead in this match up is to get them to commit to DD at unfavorable times before their engine is fully online. Lackey effects are really good in the first couple turns of this match, if you can get one down turn 1-2 there is a good chance they don't have spot removal for it. If you can get card advantage early it can go a long way toward keeping them off balance, for instance Lackey'ing out Ringleaders into Stingscourgers or Weirdings to keep the Lackeys connecting. Wasteland is also gold with Lackey effects as your manabase is less needed and if you can shut them off RRR for Seismic you limit them to really only having DD as an out to your swarm.

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Originally Posted by Malchar

2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

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Try Earwig Squad

I play R/b Goblins btw. I cannot win against Loam. Whatever SB strategy I try (Crypt P. Needle or a combination), it doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault..

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How exactly? It might be the key to my survival :laugh:

Tormod's Crypt never works for me. Or is Relic significantly better somehow?

Sry... Static Ability... my bad.

In Rb build you have: Relic of Progenitus (imo better than crypt), Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirdings, and maybe Needle. Again, the MU is not good for us, but is winnable.

I'm not finding Aggro Loam such a difficult matchup.
Vial is a winner, and Stingscourger gains huge amount of tempo. They also are often playing with little removal, so our lackeys are connecting a fair amount of time. We also pack wastelands, and have a waste proof manabase. Relic from the SB is the icing on the cake.

Remember to not overextend unless you're winning now, and that Lightning Crafter is tech against ground stalls and DD.

Rb can have a reliable manabase agains't them too. Sting is as good as Weirdings here, since I don't think that he attacks very often.
Lightning Crafter is indeed very nice I guess.
When I lose to Agroo Loam is because: A-They put too many fatties down; B- They put Seismic Assault down. With this they kill all your guys and... you.

Q1: If Vial is the key do you guys mulligan towards it?

Q2: If I'm not supposed to be overextending then it is inevitable that Seismic Assault will come down and then it's almost always game over. I don't see how that works. I mean I've tried it but it never works out.

But maybe I just side in too little cards so Q3: how many SB cards do you put in and which ones exactly?

Currently I play this list:

4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
4 Piledriver

3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron

1 Lightning Crafter
4 Goblin Ringleader

1 Siege-Gang Commander

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Mire
4 Aunties Hovel
6 Mountain

1- You don't need to lead if Vial, though is the best play. Lackey and Relic are others 1 drops you're looking for. A hand with Instiagtor + Removal is good too.

2-Yeah, this is tuff. Maybe is better to go agressive more often than hold back. I really need more testing agains't the deck. (Just re-read my own report agains't Agroo Loam. I managed to hold back on game 3, because I had a Relic down, removing his grave, so he couldn't use Loam, nor abuse Assault)

3- what I did was: ''Sideboarding: +4 Relic, +2 Liege, +1 King, -4 Fanatic, -1 Gempalm, -1 Wort, -1Squad.'' Probably should have kept Squad in insted of King.
If I had Instigators insted of Fanatics, I'd take out something like 2 Ringleader, 1 Matron, 1 Sting. don't know.

Im going to 5k this coming sunday and I wanted some more eyes on the deck I'm taking. My list is:

18x Mountain
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Stingscourger
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Piledriver
3x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Pyromancer

Had an idea with Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector. Vial in MWM sac all three to prospector for the mana but it really isnt that useful. its fun if your playing Ichorid but you have to take so much out if you actually put all three cards in or even just two. a real thought i have been having is to maindeck another pyromancer but they are only great if your get the instigator to hit.

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Thorn of Amethyst (trying to get Chalice of the Void)
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
3x Pyrokinesis

Maybe throw in tormods crypt but i really dont know whats gonna be there

You have a major problem: only 18 lands. Sorry, that won't cut it, no matter what. It will lose you so many games. Do you have wastelands in your possession? They are extremely important for the deck and don't feel too bad if you have to buy them, for they are perhaps THE legacy staple.

I'm personally playing 17 mountain, 4 waste, 2 port, but you don't need ports.

If you want a general sideboard, try this: 4x relic, 4x kinesis, 4x needle, 3x whatever. This is what I usually like in varied metagames. You should be packing 4 kinesis in your sideboard in today's meta, there is absolutely no question about that. If anybody disagrees with me, I'm ready to fight for this out back. At the very least you need 4 of some sort of aggro hate in sideboard (and pyrokinesis is usually the preferred tool for that).

Otherwise, looks good. I'm playing 3 SGC and loving it. I don't see how you plan on casting any of them though, and just relying on lackey/insti/vial is a dangerous proposition. My current list is similar to yours, but I moved 3 chieftains to sideboard (3x whatever), not playing pyromancer, only 3 piledrivers, and then the upped land count as I described earlier. It has been the best build I've had since pre-goyf.


About Loam: Don't overextend lands or creatures and cut off as much red mana as possible (if that fails, GG for terravore). I've never had problems otherwise. They die to lackey effects;with instigator, the matchup improves tenfold. The faster the build, the better.

Yeah i feel ashamed playing Gobs without the wastelands and ports but they are costy and ive been putting it off. if i only ran wastelands and no ports do you think 18-19 mountains would be enough. Also should i run relic over tormod, i really like not paying mana. thanks for the help

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Originally Posted by JMJ430

Yeah i feel ashamed playing Gobs without the wastelands and ports but they are costy and ive been putting it off. if i only ran wastelands and no ports do you think 18-19 mountains would be enough. Also should i run relic over tormod, i really like not paying mana. thanks for the help

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Relic>Goyf