You need fetches to run a 2c manabase while still being able to play around Blood Moon and (especially) Wasteland. It might seem minor, but it's not, half the format plays Wasteland.
Printable View
You need fetches to run a 2c manabase while still being able to play around Blood Moon and (especially) Wasteland. It might seem minor, but it's not, half the format plays Wasteland.
I still don't understand the Swords in this deck. Overall 4.
I would splash red for Bolt and Magus of the Moon. Eventually Flame Kavu (which is Recruitable).
with Cavern and Recruiter isn't it fine to drop Swords?
Yep. Go with just 1 or 2 Plateau and use fetches for the rest of your duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
*********************
I find myself feeling that there is not currently a creature that does what we want for the Veteran Armorer ability. I'm back on Honor of the Pure. I have always used Enlightened Tutor, so this makes sense for me. A few things though:
1. I have never actually cast this card, or perhaps just once and it did not matter. Bottom line is that I do not actually know if it will be effective anti-hate.
2. I can not think of a time in which I actually want to use Etutor for something that is not a hate piece, and besides I do not bring in Etutor except against combo. Contrarily, Recruiters will be in the main, though I may take them out against combo. Not sure. But the idea is that this setup makes Honor of the Pure only useful against combo and not against other decks that will be bringing in the hate.
3. I have not seen D+T pick up in numbers since the release of Recruiter and Prelate. Is this level of analysis premature?
I was going to PM @Medea and @Finn but there's no need to keep anything secret.
@Finn: We're not seeing the Conspiracy 2 cards in a lot of lists because they're too new. My last monthly fired off the weekend of Conspiracy 2.0 so nobody had the cards. It's a matter of them being so new that they're (still) hard to obtain at stores/trade for in the wild.
Aubert Arnaud and Brenden Chambers are onto something with 3x Recruiter. Not just because they made Top 8's, but also because I think 4x Recruiter is overkill for DnT. After goldfishing the opening 4 turns with many different permutations, the best lists allowed me to do something turn 1, 2, 3, and 4 and increase pressure rather consistently. 3 big takeaways from an outsider's perspective:
a) You need white mana
b) You need to keep the curve low (sequencing is very important)
c) Get creatures with evasion or strong lockdown
Something that's not being discussed is the impact of both SFM and Recruiter in the 60 together. Sure, their ceilings are high. Christmasland with them is awesome. But the floor is very low. Running 6-8x SFM and Recruiters translates into 23%-30.7% of your 26 creatures doing very little by themselves on the table. Until that equipment or friend joins the party, you've got yourself a durdle.
I'm surprised nobody is looking at Leonin Arbiter / Ethersworn Canonist / Containment Priest maindeck (except the one person a few pages ago who had a singleton CP). Those cards are very oppressive for the opponent to deal with and even as a 1x in the deck, still give you consistency with Recruiter.
In terms of constructing the complete list, I feel lists are too heavy with three drops. 12 or 13 three drops is just too many. I wonder if it's possible to run under 10x three drop creatures. Although those three drops are VERY strong, I keep coming back to the idea that "less is more". I don't want unplayable hands because my creatures cost WW but my lands are stuck on [colorless][colorless]. This is my mono colored list I'm still fooling around with. There's only so much deviation between what everyone is running.
Business (11)
4 STP
4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Batterskull
Creatures (26)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Revoker #3 / Containment Priest #1 / Leonin Arbiter #1
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Sanctum Prelate or Thalia 2.0, but probably not both in the main (would love to see what others think)
Lands (23)
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Plains (maybe 10 + 1 Horizon Canopy)
****
1cc = 11
2cc = 14 (faux 15 if you count batterskull from SFM as 2)
3cc = 11 (10 dudes, 1 equip)
5cc = 1
ww cost = either 7x (Thalia 2.0's) or 10x (Prelates)
lands = I cannot play multiple Caverns without ruining my potential for WW
Additional Flex
*Mirran Crusader...by default he's not in my list. I feel 3x Avengers give me the evasion and "upside with equipment" I need. Avenger is better against Delver. Avenger's vigilance is nothing to scoff at. Crusader has a better Christmasland scenario, but if you have him equipped on a functionally "open" table it's already GG.
*Banisher Priest...Finn is probably correct about there being a need to run a single spot-removal-with-legs. I think Containment Priest main fills that spot for most of the Zeniths/Sneaks/Show and Tells/Reanimator crap. She comes out a turn faster. Stuff is exiled forever, even if she dies. Only gets worse for the opponent if Flickerwisp is in the mix as well. The only upside of banisher is that I can still use Vial once it's out.
*Magus of the Moon....sooo tempting, but the manabase needs to be there. I'm not having luck. I'd need to convert to a true Wr manabase with fetches and duals.
*Ethersworn Canonist....it's an option maindeck. Turns off cantrips and combo game 1.
*Leonin Arbiter....backbreaking when it lands. Better than Mindcensor's effect. Not sure if I want it in the main or not.
*Kitchen Finks....really underappreciated. Chunks for days, gains life, has recursion. Fast metas would like him
*Fiendslayer....Need the room to be delver and red. Very narrow
*Knight of the Reliquary...I'd consider her in mono or dual colored lists. The times she's out on the table, you more or less win.
@Finn
Agreed that we don't have a good creature-based option for the slot. I like Gideon well enough. It's slow, but it has strong applications in the Shardless matchups while dodging decay. That's good enough for me.
Also, D&T is certainly picking up in popularity. We've only had a few events, but if you look at the floor of a tournament, trade threads, and the overall trend of discussions on places like /r/mtglegacy, it's very clear there is a strong increase in D&T stemming from a combination of greater card availability and the new cards.
@Warden
Leonin Arbiter is symmetrical. If we are playing both Recruiter and SFM, that hurts us quite a bit. That's my biggest knock on what you were saying.
As far as the other stuff goes, I've actually gotten a handful of email with lists from various players, and Canonist and Containment Priest are suggested quite a bit. Here was my reply to one of them:
"I dislike both Priest and Canonist in maindeck slots. Prior to Recruiter, I had tried both many times and cut them every time. Most of the matchups that a Canonist would win you on the spot (TES, ANT, Oops All Spells, Tin Fins, High Tide), a Thalia will as well in most cases if you are looking for a tutor target. Priest is fine, but if I want something to tutor for against Elves, THC is good enough; if you made it to turn 3+ against most graveyard decks without them having a real board position, you've probably already won anyway. To their merit, they are two drops with more than one toughness though, so I can see the appeal."
@Warden: I don't think you need 3 Serra Avengers. I was always fine with 2 copies even pre-Recruiter, and now we can fetch an army of Flickerwisps with it. I would rather have a 4th copy of Thalia 1.0 or a 3 mana utility creature instead.
As for the KotR suggestion, I dunno. Once active, it's a very powerful effect, but D&T wants impact on the board asap instead of durdling for a turn.
I'd probably go with something similiar to your list, with some modifications:
1-2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11-10 Plains (maybe 1 Canopy)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar (one could be replaced by a Crusader or Banisher Priest if the meta calls for it; same goes for the Avenger slots)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
So is 3x Mom acceptable, or is this more of a test-run? Is 3 Revoker the preference of most DnT players? I've had them be dead weight in my meta, but it's also pretty underdeveloped at the moment, and not blue at all. Batterskull in the main is also something I'm on the fence about.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Barook, thanks man. I'll take the Avenger advice based on your experiences.
For me, the 3x Thalia is because I flood when she's at 4. It's a maverick and DNT problem. 3 means she comes up just enough.
I go back and forth on 3 vs 4 flickerwisp. 4 is so synergistic with the deck I'm hard pressed to shave it down. You're probably correct in having the 2:2 of Prelate and THC because of it though. I expect lots of Sneak Show, DRS decks, Delver, and Nic Fit. Can't decide whether I should focus on THC or Prelate.
@3 Mom: I have experience running her at 3 or 4. Unless I see tons of fair decks tomorrow, I think you can shave the slot down to 3. I'd rather have an additional 2 drop over believing 4 mom is a staple decision.
Hi guys! :smile:
Long time without posting. In part because of some disagreements with some users, but the truth is that what I red after that point here didn’t help to keep me writing. You know, users that write without any thinking before write, people posting unplayable cards (Is it white and tutorable? Let’s post it, it’s free!), some lists with no sense or just 0 tested… Please, think twice what some of you’re going to write. This is directed to some Salvation users as well… Let’s post as this deck and starter players deserves!
So now, with our new toys and fresh testing by my part, I wanna share some thoughts with the aim of finding balanced lists. As all “new decks” we’ll need some time to acclimatize new cards to the deck and format, but I think this deck could be potentially the best deck in the format besides Miracles by far.
When I saw both new cards, my first thought was that I wanna play those guys added to that the time of old Imperial Taxes was over IMO. But I was scared with the idea of change the list and the philosophy too much. I asked myself a lot of times “is the deck that bad now to change it radically?”. And the answer was NO. It was tier 1 last months, fought everything if you played properly and one of the keys was our sacred philosophy obviously. I don’t know you, but I don’t wanna play something similar to Goblins or Merfolks… just creatures with little sense... Don’t forget that the real ideas of the deck are efficiency, disruption and pressure.
And because of this, I was surprised by the desire of some of you to change some aspects of the deck to bring in some new cards, starting with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I understand that some of you need constantly playing new cards to avoid falling into boredom I imagine, I don’t know, but this deck has a pretty clear core and very few cards could fit this engine, as it happens with others like RUG Delver. So the best thing you can do is build a list that is comfortable for you and test it a lot, because not every white card would be frequently in D&T lists…
IMHO Thalia 2.0 is not enough for a deck that will play her on T3 as earliest, when with D&T you had to do an important part of your game a turn, or even two earlier to win it. After those critical turns the play is just race pretty often. So for me she just satisfy the principle of disruption, and being really situational… Because she’s not my ideal of efficiency and pressure, and does not contribute with something new like card quality, late-game bomb or card advantage. I could see her in prison decks like Eldrazi & Taxes or just in a deck like Maverick, in which you could play her T2 with DRS/Noble/Arbor T1, but not here. And it’s more incomprehensible for me to run a single copy to search with Recruiter of the Guard: Adding more inconsistency, you’ll run a card that will be dead draw more often than a useful tool to search for. Other thought I’ve red here is that “she’s pretty strong vs Delver”. Okey, I think if you need Thalia 2.0 to crush Delver decks you’ve a serious problem. You have infinite tools to win here more complete for the deck and versatile as well, not counting those that you’re already running. More thoughts about her are like “she improves a lot the Elves matchup”. Well, it’s probably true, but you’ll keep losing against your worst matchup. It’s a nightmare. You’ll be exposed to a Natural Order win as usual because you’re not able to win before them or fight each tool that enables them the combo or make card advantage with any kind of decent sweeper, that are the plans other archetypes adopt.
I’m resigned with this matchup. I think is probably a waste of slots and resources to focus on it. Every single deck in Legacy has one/two horrible matchups, and ours is Elves. I think is better accept it than build a list thinking on it.
Well, one of my favorites moments… Flickerwisp time. I really enjoy when I see some lists that are posted since the released of our new toys... Really are you playing less than 4 copies? Really?? This absolutely has no sense to me. I really think that you want to put more difficult for yourself. Our more operative creature to close games, our beater, our FoW sometimes, a card that is fine against Delver, Omniscience decks, heavy-removal decks, useful to reset Batterskull or Cavern of Souls, to get card advantage of our search cards… and now our more often Recruiter of the Guard target, our way to win through an absurd combo… and much more... and less than 4!? I’ve always thought this was a bad movement, but now seems like a joke honestly, and of course I don’t want to offend anyone with my words, but I think with my playmat I leave my position very clear...
Same I can say for Mother of Runes. She is fantastic, really useful, sometimes just the game against a large portion of the metagame, but now we’ll run just 3 copies because of Eldrazi? Why not look the other 90% of the metagame? I was referring to ours 1CMC cards mainly when I was talking about efficiency. A card that just seeing the game can win it for you. A card that makes that if you opponent does not kill before she can be active he’ll be in problems and you’ll get card advantage if he want to kill her lately. Fantastic against Bolt decks, that we’ll see more often now with UR Delver. Same for the mirror, key card there… Same as with Flickerwisp. I don’t understand the desire to change the core that have win you so many games and still doing it.
Ok, so I’ve touched only a few issues about specific build decisions, but now I want to post my current decklist, some results on my online testing and a short sideboarding guide of it, maybe not quite optimal, because I’m still working on it.
Well, the list is not too common as I can see, but I don’t want to run something much different to what I was playing, with what I was doing well, known great the matchups against tier decks with it.
What I want is a main list that has a clear and relatively unified plan to win games pre-board. Going ahead. Disruption + clock. Without a lot of 3CMC drops, without a lot of silver bullets that you’ll search once in your lifetime, thinking on draw hate pieces (Thalia and Revoker) instead of search for it against combo decks that don’t give you time to do so (this is Legacy!). Just good cards that are usually fine draws but that in certain matchups I wanna search for. Because of this no single creatures maindeck. What I want to search is usually fine to draw. This is my philosophy for a consistent Aether Vial deck. Again, I have no absolute truth of course. It’s fine and pretty normal to disagree in some aspects. Otherwise, this would be boring!
DEATH & TAXES
MAINDECK:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
3 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
2 x Recruiter of the Guard
2 x Mirran Crusader
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
6 x Plains
4 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
2 x Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD:
1 x Path to Exile
2 x Council's Judgment
1 x Cataclysm
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Sanctum Prelate
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Rest in Peace
1 x Sword of War and Peace
After the maindeck, a pretty usual sideboard to fight the best and most played decks. Similar to what I was playing before Conspiracy 2.
I like to keep me running Flagstones of Trokair and Sword of War and Peace as preventing a new metagame as well. I mean, they’re good tools to fight Massacre, and mirror/Stoneblade decks respectively.
Both Crusaders support what I was commenting. It’s find draw one against a plenty of decks. When they’re not just a higher clock, they can hold Gurmag Angler, Batterskull token, Thought-Knot Seer or just small creatures plus Jitte. In addition, equipped is another combo we have in. But I don’t like a single copy because you’ll search for him just against BGx based decks, and against them a single Crusader is not enough sometimes because of red spot removal or just sweepers, and I don’t think I want to search for him to crush with him equipped. It’s too slow and not surprise anyone, that is the good point when you win through it. So I think 2 is still being ok. Maindeck or a split, but you’ll want to draw him a lot. Just between tier 1 decks he’s fine against all of them: Shardless BUG, Miracles, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver and D&T mirror. They was good for me months ago with 4 of them as you can see, so I’m still playing a Crusader based list.
Serra Avenger compensates what you’re losing with Recruiter of the Guard. Power against Delver, evasion, tools to hold a game to win some turns later, ability to run. And, at the same time, they hold 2CMC density of the deck, making the deck less dependant on Aether Vial on 3. Going ahead, losing little time on search creatures (at least early, you keep the capacity of draw a BOMB! Recruiter of the Guard on late game if needed), this is my maindeck gameplan.
I keep Cataclysm in my board because as my maindeck is relatively straight, I like to have some additional resources post-board to include a large amount of decks. I think a reset button is really useful, especially facing Miracles, Shardless and Lands, and I like a lot games when you’re holding resources in hand or just conditioning the game to reset with Cataclysm and keep yourself leading. I really enjoy this secondary plan. A really powerful tool and now underrated, when it should be the opposite. Now that we have better tools to fight other things we can dedicate one/two slots on win games out of our control, returning them to our “fair side”.
Here is some testing online I’ve annotated with new cards. 30-6 in rounds to my favor. Here are the overall games:
BRUG Delver (both versions) 12 - 5
Shardless BUG 10 - 1
UWR Miracles 8 - 2
ANT 5 - 3
4C Loam 3 - 2
Merfolks 3 - 2
Death & Taxes 2 - 2
Sneak & Show 2 - 2
Eldrazi 2 - 1
Bant DeathBlade 2 - 1
Mono-Red Sneak Attack 1 - 2
BUG Delver 2 - 0
RUG Delver 2 - 0
UR Delver 2 - 0
Infect 2 - 0
RG Lands 2 - 0
Dragon Stompy 2 - 0
Reanimator 2 - 0
I’ve played a couple of local tournaments as well with them, but results were pretty mediocre. Around 70 rounds played overall between online, events and physical testing.
I’ve really felt that Grixis Delver, Shardless and Miracles are really good matchups, especially Miracles. It was my biggest surprise. It seems like maindeck could be 50%-50% in the best case for them, but post-board it rounds 60%-40% in our favor, at least with my list. I think without Avengers the Delver matchup could be really really close, and it’s easy end losing by their sideboard hate.
Here is my short sideboard guide (by now):
UWR MIRACLES
+2 x Council's Judgment
+1 x Cataclysm
+1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+2 x Pithing Needle
+2 x Sanctum Prelate
+1 x Sword of War and Peace
------------------------------
-1 x Mother of Runes
-1 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-1 x Flickerwisp
-1 x Mirran Crusader
-4 x Swords to Plowshares
-1 x Umezawa's Jitte
SHARDLESS BUG
+2 x Council's Judgment
+1 x Cataclysm
+1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+3 x Rest in Peace
------------------------------
-4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 x Phyrexian Revoker
-1 x Umezawa's Jitte
GRIXIS DELVER (OTD)
+1 x Path to Exile
+1 x Council's Judgment
+2 x Sanctum Prelate
+2 x Rest in Peace
------------------------------
-1 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-3 x Phyrexian Revoker
-2 x Recruiter of the Guard
DEATH & TAXES
+1 x Path to Exile
+2 x Council's Judgment
+2 x Pithing Needle
+1 x Sword of War and Peace
------------------------------
-4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-1 x Mirran Crusader
-1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
ELDRAZI
+1 x Path to Exile
+2 x Council's Judgment
+1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+2 x Pithing Needle
+1 x Sword of War and Peace
------------------------------
-4 x Mother of Runes
-2 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
STORM
+2 x Pithing Needle
+2 x Sanctum Prelate
+2 x Ethersworn Canonist
+3 x Rest in Peace
+1 x Sword of War and Peace
------------------------------
-1 x Plains
-4 x Flickerwisp
-4 x Swords to Plowshares
-1 x Umezawa’s Jitte
RG LANDS
+1 x Cataclysm
+2 x Pithing Needle
+2 x Sanctum Prelate
+3 x Rest in Peace
------------------------------
-1 x Phyrexian Revoker
-2 x Mirran Crusader
-4 x Swords to Plowshares
-1 x Umezawa’s Jitte
INFECT
+1 x Path to Exile
+2 x Council’s Judgment
+2 x Pithing Needle
+2 x Ethersworn Canonist
------------------------------
-3 x Phyrexian Revoker
-2 x Flickerwisp
-1 x Recruiter of the Guard
-1 x Batterskull
Yeah, I know, board plans are debatable here. I am searching for optimal boardings on Recruiter of the Guard lists. Testing will tell me. For now, I am often following this, but there are moments in which I change at the moment. That’s magic.
Please feedback! And sorry for my english! :laugh:
Wait, what? :eyebrow: What are you hoping to stop with this? Their fetches? Post-board Top?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Classics. LED and Petal obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Pithing Needle isn't Revoker. LED and Petal are both mana abilities. And yes, LED is also a mana ability, despite its weird timing restriction.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Needle can hit lands, but not mana abilities.Quote:
Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
Revoker can hit mana abilities, but not lands.
Rather easy to remember.
I guess you don't follow the Storm threads too much, Barook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Obviously not, and the mistake is too common among new players to understand such insider jokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
On a different note: Has anybody seriously tested Palace Jailer yet, at least as a SB card? I'm very intestered in actual playtesting results, not just dismissive handwaving because it costs 4 mana.
I think we've talked about this in other sideboard plans. It's obvious that Needles are for fetchlands here, especially for Deltas, but now the most played list runs 4 Misty as well (Togores' decklist). It's a matchup in which you go for their mana resources desperately (Thalia, Revoker on LED, Waste, Port...). They're T1 interaction, that is something that we miss a lot here. Through them you can avoid a discard on your T2 hatebear or just the combo before it, and those are the best plans against us. It's neither the first nor the second time I've win thanks to a Needle and they've eaten an interesting quantity of Abrupt Decays as well.
OK. I have seen enough. Pilots, don't do this. Do not bring in pithing needle against Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Koke, there is a reason why Thalia, Heretic Cathar is so good, whether or not you can see it. I would certainly be playing three or four if we did not just get two bombs.
I've also been considering going to 3 Thalia 1.0. I'd probably replace it with a 1-of Paladin en-Vec just to keep the first strike and gain some more natural protections vs. bad matchups. I've also been considering Devout Lightcaster and Mystic Crusader. The Paladin seems better maindeck than the other two though.
Also, as a more or less former storm player.......... Needle is a dead card. Revoker is much better, but I've pretty much written off the storm matchup. If for some reason they kept a slow hand you got a shot, but once they see you're on D&T they'll mull to fast hands. I played against Cook in a GPQ and I put it like this: 'Either you got it and you win, or you don't got it and I get to play Magic'
On another note, I played with Recruiter for the first time last night. Opener had Recruiter and Stoneforge and I got lucky enough to assemble Mirran Crusader with War & Peace. He was at 20 with a 6 card hand. XD
And because of things like this, is a waste of time to write here... A 3 pages article by this... OMG, nice arguments! [emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Well, this isn't the place to publish an article... and honestly, what do you expect when you recommend a nonsensical strategy? It's bad advice, no matter the length of post.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
How much time have you spent testing the nonsensical strategy...? Great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
@Koke
I agree with a lot of your post, but I am not bringing in Pithing Needle against Storm to maybe hit one of their fetchlands. Just absolutely no way. Sure, maybe you got someone once with it but it's still horrendous.
We have better cards against them, and I don't want to draw dead cards against a deck that gives me 1-3 turns to win/adequately lock out.
I've played legacy seriously as a format continuously since it was called type 1.5, when wasteland and FoW were legal in Extended. I played storm for 2.5 years during its glory days with Mystical Tutors and Sensei's Divining Top. Pithing Needle has been a staple ever since it was spoiled in Kamigawa. It's been heavily tested in many decks since then, and no one did it to me to any memorable effect, and I've never thought it a sound strategy to the point that testing it was ever a consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
I'm not insulting you. Long, meaningful, well-articulated posts are great, and a pleasure to read, but not every post needs to be that. Also, expecting people on the Internet to give responses that aren't crass or brash is unreasonable. Don't take it so hard. That's my opinion.
It was a little nitpick about your personal boarding decisions. Let it go.
Dismissive handwaving........ ok now that that is out of the way this does look really neat i just don't want to change too many things all at once. (I'll try to come back to it in a few months? )Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Talking out of my ass here but maybe it would fit in a mono white stompy with stax, moat, and all that jazz.
Sanctum Prelate brought me back to this deck and since I have been following this thread for years I figured I would add data to all of the testing you guys are doing in trying to figure out the numbers. I played in 3 different tournaments since picking it up, in total i went: 11-5-1 (the last 1 was an ID) and done some playtesting as well. The deck changed some between tournaments.
Sanctum Prelate: love playing chalice so I played two in the main and two in the board. Sometimes it just makes it so your opponent can't win. 4 in the main after boarding showed me I needed more beaters. The problem with my small testing is that you really don't see how good it is, since the effect is that your opponent is not playing some of the cards. I tried asking whenever I remembered. In the end I felt like I needed more beaters and make place for Recruiter so I kept the two in the board and went up to two Mirran Crusaders. Frequently boarded it in. For another tournament I would consider running it main again. Getting it out early could just stop Bedlam Delver (UR Delver) in its tracks.
THC, well, you guys have played with it a while. I ran 3 through out all of the tournaments. I would say depending on your meta I could see an argument for 2, but 3 was perfect for me. Also, I was a bit lucky and in total went 3-0 against miracles and THC did its part (as well as sanctum prelate).
Recruiter of the guard: played with one in the main and one in the board initially, barely saw it and was quite unhappy with it. Just didn't do anything for me . Frequently boarded it out as it was the odd man out. Increased to two and it was great. I am thinking that going to 3 and decreasing flickerwisp to 3 could be the right call, that is what I would test after this.
The 2 drop slot is interesting as a part from Thalia 1.0 and SfM I really don't want to run something there. I've never really liked phyrexian revoker so this time I removed the two I was running during the first 2 tournaments and kept the lone 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth. I boarded it out for a Prelate many times. I lacked a 2 drop few times, especially for Vial. The positive was that I never thought I needed to leave Vial on 2 because of this. I would like to cut SotL and one THC to add 2 Prelate, but the 2 drop slot will suffer and it doesn't make sense from a deck building perspective. But boy is Prelate so good!
I won 4/4 games vs Bedlam Delver, that is an intense and fun match where if you draw Sanctum Prelate in time, you are in for a treat. One game was won due to my opponent flipping Smash to Smithereens and me naming 2 for Prelate. Apparently he had one more/drew his second and was waiting for me to play jitte. I don't recall having any protection for Prelate, but I felt like I was ok as my opponent had played a bunch of "chain-lightning-bolt" before.
So the losses... I think one of the most skill intensive aspects of playing this deck is to know when to mulligan and have the courage and experience to do so. I think this is in part an issue with the deck. I always try to envision the best hand I can mulligan to when I need some of that courage. Usually I think of this cards: Plains, plains, SfM, Thalia 1.0. It survives a wasteland assault and I have 2 great things to do on turn 2 and 3.
Quote:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskulle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Council's Judgement (when I need more removal post board on anything but the one thing Prelate will mention, dread of night removal, true name removal (which I barely saw), mirror match for equipment and other stuff)
2 Spatial Contortion (same as above with Prelate, especially against UR, also the mirror vs moms, Grixis, would probably go down to 1 now)
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (with Sanctum to bring in vs Miracles and all the other cards I could consider going down to 1, against -1-effects and Miracles)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (saw no evil, so they stayed in the sideboard)
2 Rest in Piece (saw no real reason to bring this in most of the time, brought in 1-2 against BUG as Goyf-pseudo removal and Deathrite hate, 1 versus Bedlam Delver)
2 Cataclysm (difficult card to play and difficult to fit in with both Gideon and Sanctum fighting for spots)
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Pithing Needle (great versus Thespian's Stage, without Enlightened Tutor I would consider running two if you want it)
This looks like a pretty reasonable approach, I still think keeping some number of Serra Avenger is more correct than not, because Flying + Equipment is just too good to throw by the way-side. When I get a chance, I will be trying out a list much like this one.Quote:
Don Donelson, 13th Place
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
9 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
Really like the list also, except I miss a 1 or 2 Mirran Crusader, the cards is such a beater.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I am on same MB now, with 1 Crusader and 1 Avenger, not sure if I am gonna keep it or chance it.
@Medea_ how has 2 karakas been for you? i like the idea of dropping down to 2, but im not really sure if it's worth it
It might be correct, or alright, in a sense, to go -1 THC and +1 Crusader if you expect lots of GB/X decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farone
@deucegg
I like two just fine. I'm working on my write up for my interview with Don Donelson, but he wants to try two as well.
"...down to two Karakas like I have been experimenting with. He believes that many of the matchups where Karakas is “necessary” are already so good that trimming one Karakas probably doesn’t matter that much. Reanimator and Sneak and Show are already great matchups, so it may been worth hedging in different directions to improve other matchups."Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
This is a solid point. I have been using four Karakas and never liked the effect of going to three. But with Sanctum Prelate and Thalia, Heretic Cathar now, I really feel like we have the cheat-creatures-onto-the-battlefield decks backed into a corner. I think I am ready to make the switch to three - and this is why.
I tossed two Avengers back in the deck for our Legacy night tomorrow and went back down to two Caverns as a result. I considered dropping to two Karakas as well but I only have 10 Tempest Plains and having one not matching just won't do :cool:
If it goes well I'll post a quickie report and deck list (I'm giving a new Sword a try as well), and if it doesn't...well...I guess I'll explain why!
your opponent gets priority regardless if it's their turn or not after you activate Mangara.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
@Finn
I really enjoyed chatting with Don. He had many similar ideas to my own, but articulated them in a different way than what I had been doing. Especially on the Serra Avenger front, he helped me solidify some of the decisions that I had been on the fence about for the past few days. I've got another interview lined up with Arnaud Aubert for next week's article, and I'm looking forward to hearing his thoughts as well.
@drocker23
So the comment you replied to was from like 2007, just fyi.
For the sake of clarity, here's the sequence of events as far as priority, regardless of whose turn:Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
1. Activate Mangara.
2. You still have priority, let's assume you pass for some reason.
3. Opponent gets priority. If opponent passes, Mangara activation resolves and exiles himself and the target.
Now, if your opponent has no response (which you might not know) then your only chance to save Mangara from exiling himself is in step 2.
If your opponent does have a response, and you passed in step 2, then they get priority again after whatever spell/ability they used, followed by you regaining priority, giving you another chance to save Mangara.
There's only two situations in which the active player gains priority first, either a new phase of the turn started, or something just resolved. If a player adds something to the stack, they can retain priority to add more 'in response' to whatever they just did. More often than not it's just assumed that people don't retain priority.
If only there was some playable effect in white/land/artifact that let you see the opponent's hand... That'd be useful for Prelate too.
Finally got around to testing with new DNT last night. Played around 20 games against a gauntlet of legacy decks just to get a feel for the new cards.
My key takeaways:
- Prelate is amazing and such ends the game on the spot sometimes (especially when protected by Mom). Vialing it in which allows essentially no response is just lights out and leaves so many cards stranded. I think I want 4 in the deck just so that my odds of turn 3 are as high as possible.
- Recruiter is good; but not great. It's a little slow and definitely doesn't have the same impact on the board that a beater or Prelate would; Recruiter makes me want more great 2 drops in the deck since a lot of times my best line would be a Turn 3 recruiter (off of Cavern) to then activate my Vial (which would be on 2) to put the hatebear in ( Thalia or Revoker) or stoneforge...
- THC was .... meh.... in my testing. Could've been the match-ups but I felt like getting her online on turn 4 (say after recruiting for her) just didn't do enough; and even on 3 she was a little underwhelming... has First strike but on the ground is outclasses by Goyfs and the Eldrazi.
- I have been only playing 2 equipments in the main (SoFI and Jitte) but found myself missing Batterskull just as another tutorable "creature" that the deck could go and fetch.
- Flickerwisp with recruiter is as good as it was in Imperial... and with no Serra Avengers a must-have at 3 or more...
- The deck is definitely much less a beat down deck.. I definitely missed having 2+ mirran crusaders and 2-3 Serra Avengers. It really has become more Taxes and less Death with the recruiter/prelate build.
This is where my list has ended up...
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn's Wingmare
4 Sanctum Prelate
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
3 Cavern of Souls
Could see shaving the Wingmare (which I like as just another flyer to help with the lack of Avengers) for another 2-drop like the 4th SFM or a MD ethersworn canonist just to maximize the T3 recruiter->vial-in 2-drop.
Hello,
I pretty much agree with everything Koke_MTG wrote about card selection and reviews. I have been testing the new cards in the last 4 small local tournaments. Being small tournaments i know what decks will show up and i build the deck based in that. Altough here are some thoughts about my experience and opinion:
- Regarding the number of copies of Flickerwisp i totally agree with Koke_MTG. I would play 6 copies if i could. Everytime i think i could cut one copy, i think in every game of magic i play with D&T and just abandon the idea.
- The number of Mother's i think it is a meta call, but in my meta i still play 4 copies.
- THC should definitely be played in at least 3 copies. I was playing 2 copies with 2 recruiters. Either you play it in turn 3 or it won't have the impact we need later. It won me some games where i landed her in 3rd turn but most of the time, saving the lands to play an equipment was the best option for turn 3 and she ended up in my hand for some turns. I think i never recruited for her too. I will probably just remove her from my 75.
- Recruiter is definitely a good late game bomb. I was playing 2 copies. Most of the time i didn't want to see him early turns because it would delay my game. But late game he can give you what you need and i also enjoyed the extra bodie for equipments or just chump block.
- Prelate is definitely the best adition to the deck. It is the most difficult new card to play because you need to have a very good knowledge of everydeck in the format. I think he has more impact in game 2 and 3 because it can shut opponent's sideboard (those scary -1/-1, 2 damage to all, etc) cards. In game 1 he can do some work too. I will be playing 2 copies in the main and maybe one in sideboard.
- Regarding Avenger, i just can't cut below 2 copies. It is just too powerfull and wins games.
MY LIST AT THE MOMENT:
LANDS
9 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
CREATURES
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Serra Avenger
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader
SPELLS
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SIDEBOARD
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Council's Judgment
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mankiri-Gusari
1 Sanctum Prelate
Thoughts on the red splash?
When the Imperial Recruiter/Magus of the Moon lists started appearing, I had found it really interested and put together a list once I could get my hands on Recruiters. However, with Recruiter of the Guard, there isn't the need to splash Red in order to have a tutor.
However, I wanted to re-open the question of the red splash for Magus of the Moon. I've developed the following list based on the trend of recent lists post-RotG, and to get the full value from the red splash.
4 Thalia GoT
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia HC
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Anax and Cymede
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
3 Plains
5 Fetches
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
Explanatory notes about the build: At the height of the red splash interest, Finn once mentioned the following about Grim Lavamancer:
Grim Lavamancer is included in this list as an unintuitive late-game finisher. This doesn't have the tempo/value accumulation that it can have in Burn or a blue deck with cantrips. However: dodges Dread of Night, is as capable a body as any for equipment, and has its best value as a 1-of or 2-of removal spell. It gains incidental value from fetches/wastelands, and its functions as a finisher by being better as the game goes longer, especially after creature combats. It can't go above a Moat the same way that Pia and Kiran Nalaar + Karakas could, but it has late-game power much like it has in Burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
The second inclusion was Anax and Cymede. Its inclusion was taken from a quote by Phil's Interview with Don Donelson:
Admittedly, a legendary creature that costs :3: (instead of 2) and doesn't have Flying is only an ersatz Serra Avenger, but it has some of the similar power to break board parity--especially when equipped--and at a speed that's much faster than Mangara. (I agree with the idea all lists have of dropping Mangara: while the current metagame is very fair, it's also very fast). Vigilance and First Strike make it a two-way card, and the 3 power gives it clock parity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
A&C's Heroic rules text might even be occasionally useful in the real corner case scenario where you have it, Mom, and another creature, and you: Target it with Swords, hold priority, actiate Mom to give it protection from White, Heroic trigger--and then overwhelm the opponent's board.
...
I'm curious for any thoughts before I start testing it. The strength of being able to lockout Lands and Aggro loam seems very strong, in addition to Magus of the Moon giving real power against Eldrazi. My concerns are that the mini-toolbox might make it less consistent overall (especially with only 2 Recruiter), and slower than mono-White.
Does anybody have any feedback on the strategic construction of this build?
Anax and Cymede would really be best if you ran cards like Blessed Alliance, God's Willing or things like that. Doing things like that would likely water down the deck and I likely would not want to use a Mother of Runes just to spend a Swords to Plowshares for the Heroic trigger. Not sure if it is a great idea but definitely deserves testing since the pump and trample could be relevant. It means a Batterskull could crash through a TNN and still get 4 damage through in a racing situation.