[Deck] Elves Combo

Ok, skipping over the obvious question of sock puppetry let's get to the meat of the issue here. Now the issue, from my point of view is not new people asking for advice in a thread that, by all appearances, is the right place to go. The issue is not even the older members (or the random first posters) getting pissed with us new guys. No the issue is the front page.

The threads primer has not been changed to reflect the changes of the deck. So new people post here expecting one thing, then getting another.

What they get is pissed off and frustrated "old guard" vets whom are sick of the questions to the point where they are willing to vent on the thread they want to treat like hallowed ground but are unwilling to update or restart. The obvious answer to the issue.

Now I am sorry if I have pissed you all off. I looked at the opening post, I read it end to end twice. It said some ideas where good. You all say they are outdated. So forgive me for coming to you with expectations that the opening post mattered.

But do me a favour, if you really want this kind of repeating issue to go away, fix it yourselves. Find someone willing to update the front page, update the big changes made to the deck and leave a line there pointing others where they could better ask their questions if they don't fit in to the thread.

Either do that, or all of you get off your high horses and stop venting at new people whom are only asking questions about what is advertised in the opening post. Fix the primer, or deal with the questions. Because as it stands someone asking about the deck, as it is portrayed in the primer, is in no wrong and you all have no right to vent at them for asking what seam to be quite reasonable questions.

Dice.

PS. Wrote this on my phone. I am sure it's full of grammar and spelling issues. Not a whole lot I can do about that without a pc.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

There is a reason why Vintage decks run Blightsteel Colossus, Show and Tell Griselbrand and Elves Craterhoof (for the moment) all over Emrakul and that is saving a whooping 10+ mana to cast them! (Tinker, NO, S&T)

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Vintage decks that run BSC can't even run Emrakul.

But I agree, Emrakul is much worse than Craterhoof, especially in a NO build.

How does everyone feel about running multiple cradles? I tried running 3 and still ended up with many cradle-only hands. I feel like 2 i
s good with 2 rotations, and it lets us play bog/karakas much more reliably from the board.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Ok, skipping over the obvious question of sock puppetry let's get to the meat of the issue here. Now the issue, from my point of view is not new people asking for advice in a thread that, by all appearances, is the right place to go. The issue is not even the older members (or the random first posters) getting pissed with us new guys. No the issue is the front page.

The threads primer has not been changed to reflect the changes of the deck. So new people post here expecting one thing, then getting another.

What they get is pissed off and frustrated "old guard" vets whom are sick of the questions to the point where they are willing to vent on the thread they want to treat like hallowed ground but are unwilling to update or restart. The obvious answer to the issue.

Now I am sorry if I have pissed you all off. I looked at the opening post, I read it end to end twice. It said some ideas where good. You all say they are outdated. So forgive me for coming to you with expectations that the opening post mattered.

But do me a favour, if you really want this kind of repeating issue to go away, fix it yourselves. Find someone willing to update the front page, update the big changes made to the deck and leave a line there pointing others where they could better ask their questions if they don't fit in to the thread.

Either do that, or all of you get off your high horses and stop venting at new people whom are only asking questions about what is advertised in the opening post. Fix the primer, or deal with the questions. Because as it stands someone asking about the deck, as it is portrayed in the primer, is in no wrong and you all have no right to vent at them for asking what seam to be quite reasonable questions.

Dice.

PS. Wrote this on my phone. I am sure it's full of grammar and spelling issues. Not a whole lot I can do about that without a pc.

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I agree entirely that a new thread with a more specific focus would be a great boon to us all. (For my part, as I stated above, I think asking questions is fine; my objection pertained to the unsubstantiated presumption that throwback or otherwise non-standard lists are better than the ones validated by recent tournaments.)

The request for a new primer came up a few months or so ago and I was about halfway through with writing one up. But my carpal tunnel began giving me problems and I kept seeing nothing but noobchatter in this thread and I just said fuck it. I'm not going to wreck my hands, making my workday miserable, if people are going to ask silly questions and post subpar lists regardless. Now I'm not saying I'm some kinda elfpro, but I've been playing the deck for years and have an SCG Top 8 to my name (/humblebrags) so I feel like I can write a primer that is at the very least up to date.

And although the primer may be outdated, I still see people asking for or posting lists that exclude basic things like dual lands or fetches or whatever. I understand that we aren't all cashmoneymillionaires, but this is the premier Legacy forum and any discussion here should assume you have acquired the necessary cards to run the best possible deck. I bet kids who suggest playing Watery Grave in the Shardless BUG or Esperblade forums just get laughed out of the room. But for some reason it's okay in here. I mean I understand Elves is considered a "starter" deck for Legacy but we gotta have some goddamn standards.

So since it's been brought up again, I'll take another look at whatever I have written already and try to come up with a workable primer. If any of you feel competent enough with the deck to give my primer a once-over to make sure I haven't made any stupid mistakes or erroneous statements, feel free to PM me.

I apologize if that came off as mean or anything. I promise I'm a very nice guy. But some of you kids is craycray, okaykay?

Although it's rather shallow, I feel Matt Nass' article on Elves is a decent-enough first read for anyone playing the NO/Craterhoof version.

Thanks for the suggestions, Koby. I used to run a single Priest over Archdruid because it's easier to tutor for on turn2 (preparing for the turn3 blowout) and over the last two tournaments, I always only lost in the mirror. What I like about Archdruid is how it negates a single Engineered Plague. Your post made me order a foil one to give it a try.

Regarding Progenitus, I board it along with the 4th NO against heavy-removal and grindy decks. Potentially also Maverick since it's otherwise rather hard to beat Ethersworn Cannonist + Sylvan Safekeeper (NO into Hoof or Ezuri als work but the setup takes longer against Cannonist). Also most Stoneblade variants and yes, also Jund. If you NO Progenitus on turn3, Punishing Fire and Lilliana have a hard time cleaning my entire board early enough. I'm also not 1000% sold on it because I only seriously started playing this deck 2 events ago but I like it thus far.

Regarding the gy hate, I felt I wanted something to interact as soon as possible. Played against Dredge last tournament and died to 6 Zombie tokens on turn1. Game2 and 3 I had Surgical in my starting hand (g2) or drew into 2 copies after a medicore Glimpse on turn2 powered by Birchlore (g3). I might cut the 3rd SE for an Ooze though. Oh, and it's true, I feel i want 2 more combo hate cards. Depending on where I go with Progenitus, the 4th NO would be the first card to cut.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

How is Vengevine even comparable in power to NO? You pay 4 for a 4/3 - or - you pay 4 and win. Seems pretty unbalanced.

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It is a creature for your GSZ and Glimpse while not being a thankful target for Counterspells of all kind because it's coming back fast in this deck. A configuration of 1x Ezuri and 4x Vines make a powerful midgame against Miracles and is still deadly like hoof in the glimpse-Combo. I would not underestimate the annoyance Vengevine puts on the table and the T8 list of the lastest Bazaar of Moxen gives an evidence.


At the Budget split:

I'm amazed that even Daniel (He's one of the funiest and honest peeps i see floating around here) now has enough. The Primer isn't up to date because the User isn't active anymore! Simple as that. It's outright stupid that within a day after my echoing rant and backlash, I see 2 more Budget-decklist without any comment on cardchoices, Budget-limit or anything like the requested marked-as-budget open for discussion!

This thread is NOT for the Elves lists relying on Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid but for Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid and Gaea's Cradle.

It's pointless to discuss lists that lack the very standard of cards in a thread aimed for tournament players and performances. There is a Budget-Elves thread where we gladly help you with your issues.

This thread should hold up high with the quality of TheSource. It's not that we discuss Shardless BUG with a Full Shockland manabase instead of Duals and without Force of Will, Lands.dec without Wasteland, Tabernacle & Co. or TES/ANT without Lion's Eye Diamonds all in their respective threads due to Budget reasons. We HAVE to work with elvish tournament top-performances or the archtype will become outmodeled itself due to the communities lack to adapt to innovation within the subtype

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

How often do you need the Harmonic & Ooze game 1? Do you feel they are really worth the MD slots?

What makes Thrun better than Progenitus in your Sideboard against the average Meta?

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Harmonic is a simple backup plan if you ran into random stuff like moat, chalice, trinisphere or more common things like jitte. I just switch between harmonic, pridemage and viridian. There are pros and cons either way.

Ooze is really nice, simply extra zenit-able graveyard hate which can instantly swing games against Punishing Fire (Jund), Tempo (Nimble/Gofy) or sometimes (with fast cradle) against Combo decks that relying on their graveyard. It is also nice against other deathrite decks.

In my mind, each competive elf deck has 2 flex-slots, previous builds use 1 for Priest of Titania and 1 for V.Shaman/2nd Crop Rotation/Pridemage etc. I sided out Priest every game and often Ooze came in, so this was an easy maindeck fix. Sliver/Pridemage/Viridian is here, why i dont wan't to lose against the random/equipment stuff Game 1 - sure it weakens your Glimpse Combo turns, but this deck can also win without the old full Glimpse Combo Turn. I can life with some less percentage in fast goldfish games - because this are only dream world scenarios - with some additional weapons for disrupted or grind games, when plans go wrong. One or two maindeck answers also free's up some sideboard slots ;) But i think it is a personal decision, that i want flexible solutions for game 1.

Thrun isnt better than Progenitus, but Berlin is full with Goblins and Tempodecks that want to kick some Tribal Asses. Progenitus is better against Goblins, but they have also an nice removal package to simply kill each elf you play and the hasty guys can also race the big bad hydra god. Tempo (especially the new BURG which is on the rise in Berlin) have all the weapons to fight you, fast clock, mana disruption and enough single and mass removal - so it is often a race - Thrun is an uncounterable resilient clock, which ignores E.Plage, Rough, Submerge - you don´t need a creature for natural order (which often eats a counter anyway). Miracle can only stop him with terminus (moat/humility) and Esperblade can block him with some tokens, but only have that 1 or 2 perish that maybe were used against the elf army. I just test Thrun and played previously successfully with the common Natural Order + Progenitus Package, it simply comes down to the decision, do you want the bigger, faster, unblockable clock (Progenitus) which can hamper your hand/mulligan an has the harder setup (Natural Order in Situation were your dudes are under heavy fire) or do you want a smaller, blockable guy, which is uncounterbale and easy to setup.

May I visit the ASL next Saturday ^^

Small, short primer to the current habits of little, green, combotastic pointy-eared gits is up:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...006#post730006

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Small, short primer to the current habits of little, green, combotastic pointy-eared gits is up:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...006#post730006

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Good start but I miss highlighting key-Chains like Nettle/Heritage, Visonary/Symbiote, machine-gun-DRS/Quirion, Quirion being a green dark ritual for turn 2 NO, GSZ Target discussion etc. or the various Fatties and their use.

I also dislike the attempt to appeal the casual players with Archdruid/Priest without further explaination or example lists. I suggest 3 example decklists for your opening post:

- A set core (MB)
- A current top performing example
- A casual/budget list

P.S.: The Headline is too cute and imo plain aweful to transport a serious primer. My 0.02$

Still tip my hat for your efford

Nice. Thank you for that. When I have a bit more experience I might do up a true budget build and you can link them. That way people are clear as where to post what questions.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Good start but I miss highlighting key-Chains like Nettle/Heritage, Visonary/Symbiote, machine-gun-DRS/Quirion, Quirion being a green dark ritual for turn 2 NO, GSZ Target discussion etc. or the various Fatties and their use.

I also dislike the attempt to appeal the casual players with Archdruid/Priest without further explaination or example lists. I suggest 3 example decklists for your opening post:

- A set core (MB)
- A current top performing example
- A casual/budget list

P.S.: The Headline is too cute and imo plain aweful to transport a serious primer. My 0.02$

Still tip my hat for your efford

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I have a list of key interactions with the deck. Various detailed Quirion Ranger shenanigans are missing, that's true, will flesh out and reformat the interaction listings a bit. Most of what you suggest is listed already though. One issue on the shenanigans list, though: I haven't really memorized lines for this deck the way I've had to for TES or something, for example, and just make up my plays on the go. So example situations and tricks are appreciated and will be incorporated as soon as I get to updating.

What do you mean with the GSZ target thing?

Decklist suggestions duly noted, though most lists are very standard. You think Anfylion's list would be a good budget example?

Minor note: I'm not running my current list because of budget reasons. I have the fetches, duals, Natural Orders, and everything to run the other version; I just choose not to. I simply like playing my version better. Personal preference is all it is, nothing to do with not having the money. XD

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Small, short primer to the current habits of little, green, combotastic pointy-eared gits is up:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...006#post730006

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Thanks for getting this started. However, I recommend you get a hold of Daniel's unfinished primer and incorporate the two together. He goes into card choice analysis as well as a few tips/tricks you can pull with certain cards that won't be obvious to someone just picking up the deck. The only major thing missing is the matchup analysis. I helped him proofread his primer and can say his version is solid. I can do the same with yours too but I strongly urge you to ask him for his primer for reference. Once again, thanks for the great start!

I'm about to head out for a Modern Masters draft (where I will force Giants and shout "HODOR! HODOR!!!" at the end of each phase) but if you guys can wait like 36 hours, I will craft you the finest primer the world has ever seen! It will seriously be the best thing ever.

@Zombie

I actually thought a mod would replace the opening post of this thread with whatever primer we drafted up. So when you posted an entirely new thread, that just blew my mind. I didn't know we could do that.

About your PM. "Can I has the half-finished stuff?" That was it. That didn't exactly fill me with confidence about how my writing would be used in regards to plagiarism and giving credit where credit is due and all that hullabaloo. To be quite honest, the primer I have in mind will be alot more in-depth than what you have currently.

Allow me to propose an alternative, and I know this will sound yucky to you. But could you delete/move your primer into this current elves thread, for reference and posterity? Once I finish my draft, I'll need to tweak it and whatever in the forum code so having access to the first post (i.e. being able to directly edit it and stuff) would make that way more convenient than constantly PMing back and forth for you, the holder of the opening post, to make any requested changes. And this would allow me to keep the opening post up to date going forward. Also, I'm an ego-maniac and kinda wanted credit for my work, since if we merged our two primers, my words/ideas would make up about 80-90% of the content, considering what you have already put up. It would be a feel-bad play for me to just hand over all this content I have drafted only to have somebody else's name on it. It would be like having my Craterhoof trigger Stifled.

I know that sounds a bit selfish. That's because it kinda is. But I hope you can understand that and still think I'm a really fly guy. Let me know what you think. And feel free to let me know if I'm being a big jerk in this regard. The thing about big jerk moves is you often don't know you are doing them until it's too late!\

K I'm off to draft Hodor...er Giants now.

If you want to do a proper one, do it. I wrote that just so we'd have something.

Lol k. Perfectly fair. Expect one by the end of the weekend. I apologize for being presumptuous. We are all lords of the forest, one and all. HODOR!

I am glad this is happening. I think one of the reasons the Goblin thread in in the state it is, mostly is thanks to the fact that the primer is updated every major release or when someone posts something that opens up new ideas. I do not think the opening needs to be the greatest thing ever written, (would be cool though) no what is needed is an OP whom has the time free and the inclination to keep it up to date.

Sorry if I seamed like an Ass before. I am glad this ball is now rolling though.

@Daniel: I figured you'd want to get some [deserved] credit for the hard work you put into writing the primer so I requested Zombie ask you first before moving forward. Let me know if you need any help again.

@Zombie: Not to take anything away from your work but I do think it's best to go with Daniel's version since he has made more progress on it thus far.

Stop sounding like politicians, people. It was a train of thought that took an hour or two to write or something like that when I was bored. Spend the effort campaigning for the printing of the Elfsculler or the Therapy Elf.