Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arianrhod,
Gaddock Teeg maindeck is as good as it gets for the speed and consistency. Play a 4th GSZ to begin with and throw in a MD Teeg as a concession to combo. There is as much dissynergy with Teeg in Nic Fit than there is with Teeg in Maverick... almost none. A Rector sacrifice is too slow for any Storm combo deck if you don't have nuts discard to support it.
On a different note, what do you guys think about Innocent Blood vs. Fleshbag Marauder in a GBW Nic Fit deck sporting Fierce Empath and a single Sun Titan?
What I liked the most out of Marauder was how it worked out with Show n Tell and how RUG couldn't Spell Pierce it. Also, if I have to use it proactively as an Explorer sac outlet I have more value left than if I am forced to IB. Then there is the whole 1 CMC vs. 3 CMC thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Siiig
Blitz Hellion then the mention of GroundBreaker as ways of helping with walkers kind of blew my mind. I used to have a huge hard on for Ground Breaker when I was younger then completely forgot about the card. I wind up playing against blue a lot, so it sounds like a really fun way to deal with Jace.
I think Timbermare is the best card for that purpose. Taping all blockers, swinging for exactly 5, being out of Deed range, and potentialy leaving a 5/5 body behind is pretty good. If you thought Vindicate or Pulse were our only options against Planeswalkers, how about sticking a 5/5 body to it and making it GSZ-able for 1 more mana.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arianrhod
You were right my mana base was bad. :( Due to laziness I switched back to your signature list. I did test a 4th top and deed in the two flex spots and they were ok. Seeing top more in opening hands was good.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I liked having the Marauders over the Innocent Blood. A Spell Pierce makes both cost 2B so that point is kinda meh, although the attached body is nice if you sac something else, and it gives you an alternative Sun Titan engine late game which is delicious.
IB helps more against the likes of Infect and some swarms where you need to churn out the removal as fast as possible (granted Marauder-Titan helped me slaughter Zoo a few times), so I think it largely comes down to a meta/playstyle call. Both work well in the deck overall.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I also made a signature with my current lists now, I think that was a very good idea. Also I have to say that the Punishing Fire list performs far better than I would have thought. It is a blast to play and I think it is currently stronger than the blue list.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I have been really happy with this mana base for Scapeshift:
Land (24):
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Tiaga
4 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Verdent Catacombs
2 Valakut
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's stonghold
Mana Sources:
9 - Black (not counting tower)
15 - Red (11 actual mountaints)
11 - Green
Volrath's stonghold is the nuts, I dont really feel like repeating what Ive said previously but I think not running it cant be right. Very rarely it gets wasted or makes a colorless when you want a colored mana making me wish it was just a basic, but maybe 1 in 40 games the fact that its not just basic makes a game breaking impact on the game, while it wins probably 1 in 10 games that would not be able to be won if it was just another land in my deck. Like I have said before my wins go roughly 50% to scapeshift, 30% to Huntmaster/thrag beats, 20% Prime Titan into the two towers. And the stronghold, helps win games when you are on the beatdown plan too. Not much in legacy can beat you if you cast a thragtusk or huntmaster every turn.
Ideally, we'd have like 12 fetches in this deck since we use top, but obviously there are other constraints on our manabase. However, thats no reason to drop fetches entirely. 2 is the number that can be fit in without messing up our mountain count. Although I can see it happening in rare circumstances, I have literally never lost game because I need 1 or 2 more mountains in my deck. While just about every single game, I see a fetch and it gets the exact land I need and/or provide a shuffle I need, where a stomping ground or basic land would not have cut it.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chapman24
I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?
Depends, does a NO package actually help you out in any match-ups?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Arianrhod, have you considered Overmaster in Scapewish against Miracles?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Natural Order is a bad SB choice for Fire versions. It does not help against any of the bad matchups (Emrakul/Griselbrand > Progenitus) and doesn't improve the good matchups. I am not even sure when you would bring it in. Aside from that I want to emphasize again how well Punishing Nic Fit does in my testing. I barely lose.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Natural Order is a bad SB choice for Fire versions. It does not help against any of the bad matchups (Emrakul/Griselbrand > Progenitus) and doesn't improve the good matchups. I am not even sure when you would bring it in. Aside from that I want to emphasize again how well Punishing Nic Fit does in my testing. I barely lose.
I was thinking that the NO package had turned into win more and was not really needed, I think I was holding onto it so long because I love NO myself.
I would also like to point out how solid Punishing Fire is right now, since I added it into my G/B list my matchups ws. BUG, RUG, and Mavrick have all went up. BUG and RUG are almost easy with repeatable ways to shoot down the small guys, eating planeswalkers in the control matchups was a pleasent surprise and is very good. I also have been enjoying how well PF combos with Liliana of the Veil make your opponet discard and you just get your PF back...so good!!!
Chapman24
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chapman24
I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?
Jund doesn't give two shits about Deathrite Shaman, especially when you have PFires. Rector wants NO because its Rector package gets hosed by Deathrite Shaman. At this time, I don't recommend NO for any other version of Nic Fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
@Arianrhod,
Gaddock Teeg maindeck is as good as it gets for the speed and consistency. Play a 4th GSZ to begin with and throw in a MD Teeg as a concession to combo. There is as much dissynergy with Teeg in Nic Fit than there is with Teeg in Maverick... almost none. A Rector sacrifice is too slow for any Storm combo deck if you don't have nuts discard to support it.
On a different note, what do you guys think about Innocent Blood vs. Fleshbag Marauder in a GBW Nic Fit deck sporting Fierce Empath and a single Sun Titan?
What I liked the most out of Marauder was how it worked out with Show n Tell and how RUG couldn't Spell Pierce it. Also, if I have to use it proactively as an Explorer sac outlet I have more value left than if I am forced to IB. Then there is the whole 1 CMC vs. 3 CMC thing...
I think
Timbermare is the best card for that purpose. Taping all blockers, swinging for exactly 5, being out of Deed range, and potentialy leaving a 5/5 body behind is pretty good. If you thought Vindicate or Pulse were our only options against Planeswalkers, how about sticking a 5/5 body to it and making it GSZ-able for 1 more mana.
I'm torn between Hellion and Timbermare. The fact Hellion reshuffles like Green Sun allows you to just keep bringing him out, over and over again. Also, the fact that he's a 7 on the ass-end is probably relevant, since 95% of Goyfs won't be able to profitable trade with him 1-for-1. Timbermare tapping down their stuff is a strong ability, though, and in fact seems like it could be even stronger in one of the versions with Recurring Nightmare. Letting him die to his echo only to bring him back and tap their blockers again seems strong. I don't like that he taps -your- blockers, too, though.
Hellion also gives some sick synergy with Top, since he doesn't shuffle until EoT -- that lets you Green Sun him, then Top -- drawing anything that you want (aka wins the game), then Hellion shuffles away whatever you don't want EoT. Good use for extra Tops. I'm thinking that Hellion is PROBABLY the way to go for Scapewish, but I do think that Timbermare has a place somewhere, likely alongside Recurring Nightmare. Both are good finds.
I used to run Fleshbag Marauder when Sneak was big, as another maindeck way to attack their Show and Tells. Over time, though, it got cut because as a 1-of, I never found it when I wanted to. It's not green, and it's not like we have Survival to dig it up. It's also not a 6+ drop, so you can't grab it with Empath. If you were to run 2-3 of them, however, I believe it would treat you pretty well. The only thing that Fleshie is a little weak to is in the Delver matchup. You really want your Innocent Blood effect to cost B there, not once you've taken 6+ from a flying bugman. I will note, though, that Fleshbag and Sun Titan is exactly as dirty as it sounds.
The problem with Teeg that I just can't get out of is that all of my powerful hate cards cost 4. Humility, Moat, Cranial/Memoricide, Nether Void -- all are 4s. I'm not as worried about my Green Suns, but I'd rather not have to rely on Rector in a combo matchup. If I naturally draw into Nether Void, or I have Cranial in my hand, I'd rather deploy those, more powerful (and more reliable) hate cards. Teeg is really strong, don't get me wrong. But I'm morally opposed to shutting off pieces of my own deck such that I HAVE to tutor for them. I cite again the example of decks like Viridia's which rely 100% on Rectoring out Omniscience, because they can't hardcast it. That's all fine and all, I guess, but it's not for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Osmin
Arianrhod, have you considered
Overmaster in Scapewish against Miracles?
I have. The problem with Overmaster is that Scapewish usually boards out its Burning Wishes in the Miracles matchup. Overmaster also suffers from being a 1-drop, which IMO is a serious liability vs Miracles because countertop. I'm sure there are some fringe cases where it would be worthwhile, but in order for Overmaster to actually do anything, the Burning Wish has to resolve first -- and if they have a counter, the odds are it's going to be directed at the Burning Wish anyway.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Are you sure that an unprotected haste guy that dies or shuffles back is the right card?
What if they play Swords to Plowshares and you're fucked?
I think Thrun is still better because of protection & he stays on the battlefield for pressure.
But nonetheless I'm gonna test out Hellion because I put my Bonfires out anyway since they don't seem to be THAT good in the current meta. (my local meta at least)
@ overmaster: I'm with Arianrhod, in my eyes Overmaster is a wasted SB slot because why shouldn't we keep on running Thoughtseize/Duress which does more overall anyway
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alexeezay
Are you sure that an unprotected haste guy that dies or shuffles back is the right card?
What if they play Swords to Plowshares and you're fucked?
I think Thrun is still better because of protection & he stays on the battlefield for pressure.
But nonetheless I'm gonna test out Hellion because I put my Bonfires out anyway since they don't seem to be THAT good in the current meta. (my local meta at least)
@ overmaster: I'm with Arianrhod, in my eyes Overmaster is a wasted SB slot because why shouldn't we keep on running Thoughtseize/Duress which does more overall anyway
I think so, actually. By time we're dropping Hellion, there is no way a Jace deck is going to have Swords left (ignoring BUG which literally can't kill him). Same with Junk -- between Liliana bleeding their hand dry in addition to ours, they need every shred of spot removal they can get to deal with Huntmasters and Thragtusks. A lot of Junk players Swords Explorer on sight, too, if you give them the chance to do so. Scapewish's threat density is absurd enough already that I don't see the Swords-based midrange/control decks being able to deal with Hellion once he starts landing.
I also foresee Hellion providing random bullshit wins out of nowhere, because seriously, who the hell is going to expect that. Thinking back in my head over some past games, I can easily recall several games where Hellion doming someone who tapped out to attack me for 7 would win the game -- games that I actually lost.
Furthermore, I have had several games that have gone long enough to where I've burned through all of my offensive Green Sun targets. It's a rotten feeling when there's nothing left in your deck to Green Sun for other than Wood Elves and Explorers. Obviously those are more corner cases than not, but being able to turn every Green Sun you draw into a 7/7 haste trampler for the rest of the game seems amazing.
Obviously it'll need testing and etc etc, but I'm actually pretty optimistic about it.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
All this talk of P-Fire and insane Jund threats is making me wanna give Jund colors a try.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Could someone please inform me how to fit Natural Order in here? I picked a play set get cheap and would like to use it :).
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Put it in Rector's sideboard, so when you run into the Deathrite Shaman.decs, if they actually know how to eat Rector, you can just board out Rectors and board in NOs. Probably Nightmare comes out for the Progenitus.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I would play NO mainboard in a BUG shell using Brainstorm, Jace, creatures like Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Sylvan Ranger, and probably Force of Will.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Is there a current jund list without burning wish? I'm finally putting I together, but I don't have any wishes.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
There is the Punishing Fire list in Tao's sig. It has been performing very well as of late. Give it a try.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
I would play NO mainboard in a BUG shell using Brainstorm, Jace, creatures like Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Sylvan Ranger, and probably Force of Will.
This sounds pretty fantastic, except I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than NO Bant, since they can play NO on turn 3 as well.
