All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Is there any data that we aren't retaining players or that players are not coming in? Availability seems to be a far more pressing issue to growing Legacy.

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Balance and availability go hand in hand. If one color is the dominant color by a wide margin, then the cards for those colors will be highly sought after and create availability/pricing issues that is detrimental to the format.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Balance and availability go hand in hand. If one color is the dominant color by a wide margin, then the cards for those colors will be highly sought after and create availability/pricing issues that is detrimental to the format.

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Or: We could have more players in the format if Plateau was a card.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Or: We could have more players in the format if Plateau was a card.

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That's my point. The color balance is so lopsided towards blue that we have $150-200 blue duals and $45 Plateaus. If the format was more balanced, we'd likely see a more even demand for staples of every color, not just blue.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

That's my point. The color balance is so lopsided towards blue that we have $150-200 blue duals and $45 Plateaus. If the format was more balanced, we'd likely see a more even demand for staples of every color, not just blue.

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But all the good mechanics are blue.

Also, all of the good mistakes from WotC are also blue.

This was a good post, I should just quote it every time people say things about blue having all the good mechanics.

It's more accurate to say that blue has the mechanic "good."

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Originally Posted by testing32

I disagree. It's not the abilities it's the power level of the cards printed.

For example -
B - Instant - target player discards 3 cards at random
R - Instant - 7 damage to target creatures or player
G - Creatures - 5/5 hexproof haste trample
WW1 - Creature - 3/1 protection from a player (oh, wait....)

I can make good cards with strong color identities too. Problem is wizards love affair with blue. Any ability can be high powered. Drawing and countering is just what they have decided to push/horribly misevaluated.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

This was a good post, I should just quote it every time people say things about blue having all the good mechanics.

It's more accurate to say that blue has the mechanic "good."

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That's half true, because if those cards existed, they would be cards. And so getting more of them than your opponent would let you win faster. So even with some amazing non blue card, the fact that they will always be cards capable of being drawn through some means, will give blue a one up in the other 4.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

This was a good post, I should just quote it every time people say things about blue having all the good mechanics.

It's more accurate to say that blue has the mechanic "good."

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It's probably more accurate to say that WoTC just has a hard-on for blue and gives them the good shit.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

That's half true, because if those cards existed, they would be cards. And so getting more of them than your opponent would let you win faster. So even with some amazing non blue card, the fact that they will always be cards capable of being drawn through some means, will give blue a one up in the other 4.

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I'd say it's all true. We can make the example more extreme. If those cards existed and the best counter was cancel and the best card draw was predict you would never play card draw or counters b/c they would be using valuable slots.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

It's probably more accurate to say that WoTC just has a hard-on for blue and gives them the good shit.

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Blue is the most popular color because it has best cards. In turn, they make the best card in blue because it has the biggest fan base. It's a vicious circle.

Same with all the Jace circlejerking now. Jace silver coins? C'mon!

Edit: I have yet to hear a logical reason why TNN was blue instead of white, aside from Wizard's raging hard-on for blue. Blue is historically the color of non-creature protection? It had three cards in its entire history of that before. Innistrad block alone had double the amount of said cards in white.

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Originally Posted by testing32

I'd say it's all true. We can make the example more extreme. If those cards existed and the best counter was cancel and the best card draw was predict you would never play card draw or counters b/c they would be using valuable slots.

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This is true. You could even go MAX EXTREME and just ban blue as a color. The other four would go on existing and the reason there are 5 dots on the backs of Magic cards can be a quaint story we tell to our grandchildren.

The only other option is to completely scrap the color wheel and build it back up from the ground. Maybe then you could achieve some semblance of balance among the five.

Also, while there might be some debate over blue as the BEST color...

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

...all of the good mistakes from WotC are also blue.

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This is difficult to dispute.

It's true, because Wizards makes the most mistakes in blue because of its raging hard on for the color, we have no choice but to just deal indefinitely with whatever gets printed. That's why Legacy is still haunted by Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and Tolarian Academy to this very day.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

This is true. You could even go MAX EXTREME and just ban blue as a color.

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Why not? We have already banned red. What red card actually sees play other than lightning bolt, sneak attack and REB/Pyroblast?

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Originally Posted by catmint

What I would not welcome is if the format turns into some "stall" of 2-3 best decks like we had it during the MM with Stoneblade/NO RUG or afterwards with Maverick/RUG/Stoneblade where basically everything else was Tier2. Without Delver I see SFM as a risk to become a fun killer because he simply dominates everything. Wouldn't "tempo" cease to exist without delver and wouldn't that mean the format turns into a couple of dominating midrange/control decks and some combo?

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Tempo existed before Delver and I doubt it would cease to exist without it. Sure, it would get weaker, but maybe "3-color Delver deck of the week" wouldn't be the best performing deck of the format for pretty much every month.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It's true, because Wizards makes the most mistakes in blue because of its raging hard on for the color, we have no choice but to just deal indefinitely with whatever gets printed. That's why Legacy is still haunted by Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and Tolarian Academy to this very day.

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Sadly the solution requires the same people that made said cards in the first place to pull their collective heads out of their asses.

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Originally Posted by testing32

Why not? We have already banned red. What red card actually sees play other than lightning bolt, sneak attack and REB/Pyroblast?

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Snapcaster Mage.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Snapcaster Mage.

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I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by ahg113

I don't get it.

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http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=368517

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=245197

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Originally Posted by testing32

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=368517

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=245197

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http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=227676

[sarcasm]Am I color blind?[/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by ahg113

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=227676

[sarcasm]Am I color blind?[/sarcasm]

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The default color for cards WotC makes is blue. Show and Tell was supposed to be green, Snapcaster was supposed to be red, Tnn was supposed to be white, and someone accidentally made Goyf green because they didn't want people pitching it to FoW.

While Snapcaster Mage would have been more interesting as a Red card, there seems to be very little merit in saying its ability is something only Red has access to.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

While Snapcaster Mage would have been more interesting as a Red card, there seems to be very little merit in saying its ability is something only Red has access to.

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While you're right in saying that Red doesn't have a monopoly on the effect (Blue and Red both share the sphere of "metamagic", or interacting with Instants/Sorceries), it generally had greater precedent from earlier cards like Recoup to a spell that sat in the same set as Snappy, Past in Flames. Not to mention, Snappy is aggressively costed and would fit better in the color of aggression.

It's not so much that Snappy didn't fit in Blue mechanically, it's more that Blue really didn't need Snappy nearly as much as Red did. That's a story that seems to have been playing out far too often the past few blocks, what with Blue getting toys they'll hardly even play with while other colors get dirty hand-me-downs.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

While you're right in saying that Red doesn't have a monopoly on the effect (Blue and Red both share the sphere of "metamagic", or interacting with Instants/Sorceries), it generally had greater precedent from earlier cards like Recoup to a spell that sat in the same set as Snappy, Past in Flames. Not to mention, Snappy is aggressively costed and would fit better in the color of aggression.

It's not so much that Snappy didn't fit in Blue mechanically, it's more that Blue really didn't need Snappy nearly as much as Red did. That's a story that seems to have been playing out far too often the past few blocks, what with Blue getting toys they'll hardly even play with while other colors get dirty hand-me-downs.

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I don't play Limited or Standard, did blue need Snapcaster in those? I'm curious how good a job WotC has done at balancing (yes, a fucked up balance in which blue doesn't get good counters but gets creatures it shouldn't, and messes with Legacy) in the formats it does most of its designing for.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

While you're right in saying that Red doesn't have a monopoly on the effect (Blue and Red both share the sphere of "metamagic", or interacting with Instants/Sorceries), it generally had greater precedent from earlier cards like Recoup to a spell that sat in the same set as Snappy, Past in Flames. Not to mention, Snappy is aggressively costed and would fit better in the color of aggression.

It's not so much that Snappy didn't fit in Blue mechanically, it's more that Blue really didn't need Snappy nearly as much as Red did. That's a story that seems to have been playing out far too often the past few blocks, what with Blue getting toys they'll hardly even play with while other colors get dirty hand-me-downs.

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In addition to the above, blue had heretofore had almost no graveyard recursion to its name. A very efficient Witness variant therefore was quite bizarre.

Wizards admitted later on that Snapcaster probably would have fit better into red, but they wanted to stick to the original blue design of the Invitational winner Tiago, so it ended up in blue.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Wizards admitted later on that Snapcaster probably would have fit better into red, but they wanted to stick to the original blue design of the Invitational winner Tiago, so it ended up in blue.

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They have had absolutely no qualms in the past about changing the color (or even more!) of Invitational cards so I don't know why they even bothered to use that BS excuse.

Yeah, why would they listen to their last invitational winner? Didn't they know people on The Source would complain it's blue?

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Yeah, why would they listen to their last invitational winner? Didn't they know people on The Source would complain it's blue?

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People complained in Standard too.

And why indeed? They've changed or nerfed most of the invitational designs, why not fix this one too?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

People complained in Standard too.

And why indeed? They've changed or nerfed most of the invitational designs, why not fix this one too?

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I could be wrong but I think Chan's initial concept was called Denying River or something?

It was a land that tapped for colorless and you can pay 2UU, discard it and counter target spell. If that is the case then they did already change one of his designs.

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Originally Posted by Will_L

I could be wrong but I think Chan's initial concept was called Denying River or something?

It was a land that tapped for colorless and you can pay 2UU, discard it and counter target spell. If that is the case then they did already change one of his designs.

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This was the original idea:

Denying Channel
Land
Tap: Add 1 Mana to your mana pool.
2UU, Discard Denying Channel: Counter target spell.

They decided that an uncounterable counter spell was too potent.

Edit: Actually, the description that was chosen for the picture of the card is pretty funny:

"Color: Blue creature
Action: Start with the reference. Design a bad-ass human mage based on the reference. He is wearing a metal arm enhancement with glass tubing that contains ghost energy. We can see the ghosts swirling around inside the glass. The mage should look smart and powerful.
Focus: The mage
Mood: Powerful, smart, dangerous"

Lol at a 4 mana uncounterable counter spell as too strong. Didn't they print a 4 mana uncounterable counter spell in Last Word? I realize the diff between a spell and land slot, but still, if that's their rationale, that doesn't make sense.

Instead, they print a Flash 2/1 Recoup... that can be pitched to Force of Will.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Instead, they print a Flash 2/1 Recoup... that can be pitched to Force of Will.

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Although you have to admit, its a great design! /////

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Although you have to admit, its a great design! /////

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Snapcaster is strong, but Bob is GOAT design.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

People complained in Standard too.

And why indeed? They've changed or nerfed most of the invitational designs, why not fix this one too?

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Because it's blue and Wizards is a bunch of dicks.

I don't even know which invitational card was mangled the most by Wizards - my vote goes to Rakdos Augermage.

Didn't Finkel wanted some kind of Wrath of God effect?

Edit:
For winning, Jon Finkel will see the card he created get added to an upcoming expansion. Finkel's submitted card is: "Wrath of LekniF", a 1WWU Sorcery with the text "Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. Untap up to four lands.

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Originally Posted by Holly

Didn't Finkel wanted some kind of Wrath of God effect?

Edit:
For winning, Jon Finkel will see the card he created get added to an upcoming expansion. Finkel's submitted card is: "Wrath of LekniF", a 1WWU Sorcery with the text "Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. Untap up to four lands.

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Where did you see this?

Watching the PT coverage reminds me what a healthy format looks like.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

Where did you see this?

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IIRC, it was the preview article for Shadowmage Infiltrator, all the way back in 2001.

Now we're complaining about Snapcaster Mage? While it's undoubtedly good, the card barely makes a ripple in the format. Is there any particularly reason for hating Blue cards other than them simply being Blue? Honestly, I understand wanting to make the colors a little more balanced, but some of you people sound like you have a personal vendetta against Blue as a color, like WotC is personally attacking you every time there is a playable Blue card.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Now we're complaining about Snapcaster Mage? While it's undoubtedly good, the card barely makes a ripple in the format. Is there any particularly reason for hating Blue cards other than them simply being Blue? Honestly, I understand wanting to make the colors a little more balanced, but some of you people sound like you have a personal vendetta against Blue as a color, like WotC is personally attacking you every time there is a playable Blue card.

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So you understand people wanting color balance, you just don't understand why people would want... say... cards with a historically not-blue effect... to be in not-blue colors... to say... maybe... balance the colors more?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

So you understand people wanting color balance, you just don't understand why people would want... say... cards with a historically not-blue effect... to be in not-blue colors... to say... maybe... balance the colors more?

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I understand wishing they'd have made Snapcaster Mage Red or wishing they'd never printed True-Name Nemesis in the first place, but they aren't going to errata a card's color for crying out loud, so why waste time fussing about it? There's no point in filling up endless threads complaining about Blue cards when people could be making constructive posts brainstorming new card ideas that might actually get picked up. I'm under the impression that rather than having the will or knowledge to actually make constructive posts, the majority of the anti-Blue crowd simply likes to hear themselves bitch without actually saying anything new or interesting, probably because it makes them feel more special to be counter to "popular" opinion (or color as it may be).

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Originally Posted by Dzra

when people could be making constructive posts brainstorming new card ideas that might actually get picked up.

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They should make a white Imperial Recruiter - fits the color pie and D&T would probably play the shit out of it. Non-creature-heavy blue decks probably wouldn't get much use out of it.

I'm pretty sure we already have plenty of fan creation conversations, although fan created cards tend to be dumb. So this is really just trying to silence an argument by labeling it "bitching" or "whining," and not dealing with the actual substance.