Miracle Control

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Under most circumstances, you beat rug by stabilizing and resolving cb+top, entreat is risky as they can sandbag stifle and blow you out while jace digs for cb/top and keeps you ahead

---

Agree on this plan


Vs Canadian my best plan so far is (Einherjer 4 ponder list):

cutting 3 Jace, 2 Entreat and CJ and adding 3 Flusterstorm and 3 Clique

My gameplan is all about Counterbalance then clean the board and win with a singel creature from there (sounds easyer than it is)

In my experience Jace is an expensive card playing through Blast effects, taxing counters, wasteland and stifle on fetches, even if Entreat is a must counter i had a lot of truble with Stifle and Clique and when Counterbalance resolves with std it's game over anyway so from there its only about getting a Snapcaster or Clique into play. Could argue that we could board in blasts but i wanna stay 2 colours vs Stifle + Wasteland.

I can also see boarding out 1-2 Force of will for 1 EE and maybe keep one Entreat/CJ, but boarding out all of them feels wrong and lets them dictate the tempo to much

if Bug is back wouldn't Spell Snare help a lot?

it gets everything relevant but planeswalkers.. (CB, DC, HtT, Tarmogoyf)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ellistann

As a budget option, how well does the RiP/Helm version stack up?

Moving to a new area and hopefully will be able to dust off my old legacy decks, but I'm missing Jaces and most dual lands.

I was rocking RiP/Helm with 2x hallowed Fountains and fetches to minimize energy field getting blown up, but don't know if it's viable in today's metagame.

---

Well..., if you play Miracles, you need at least 1 Jace, you can use Dig for that slot in the mean time. Rip-Helm is by no means budget. It's good in a meta that's filled with goblins, and not as many Liliana/Jace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnziD

will be streaming again at 7:30 EST - www.twitch.tv/anzi104 - for those interested.

EDIT: Today did not go so well. Went 2-2, winning round 1 vs miracles and round 2 to storm. Lost rounds 3 to miracles and round 4 to deathblade where I misclicked and let a true name resolve with entreat on top. I'll be back tomorrow at 2:00 EST most likely.

---

You picked a horrible timing, yes you're on the earlier Legacy daily, but Joe was streaming Miracles most of this week. I mean..., you know.

Mirror boarding:
With Einherjer's latest list.
my normal plan
-4 Terminus
-4 Stp
-1 CJ
-2 Entreat

+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Blast effects
+1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Vendilion Clique

How bad would this be?:
-4 Terminus
-4 Stp
-1 CJ
-2 Jace

+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Blast effects
+1 Counterspell
+1 Entreat
+3 Vendilion Clique

Really bad IMO. The Mirror is all about that Jace, No Entreat. You want to force through your own CB / Top while keeping them off of theirs, and then seal the deal with Jace. Pyroblast be damned at that point.

I'm all for taking out either one or both entreats and a plains. (Using Ein's build)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exallium

Really bad IMO. The Mirror is all about that Jace, No Entreat. You want to force through your own CB / Top while keeping them off of theirs, and then seal the deal with Jace. Pyroblast be damned at that point.

I'm all for taking out either one or both entreats and a plains. (Using Ein's build)

---

Yeah my normal go to plan as well, just think that if you need CB+SDT to protect Jace and win with it, entreat will do the same job and give one more out on CB for Clique. Edit: bad point as i boardet out CJ ^^

Im just asking here because i tested out 3 Entreat (no jace) vs a UR-standstill deck that was packed with 4 Spell Snare 3-4 blasts after board 2 Flusterstorm and 1-2 Counterspells and on top of that 3-4 Snapcaster Mage.
lets say it was a fight resolving anything of importance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madsk

Yeah my normal go to plan as well, just think that if you need CB+SDT to protect Jace and win with it, entreat will do the same job and give one more out on CB for Clique.

Im just asking here because i tested out 3 Entreat (no jace) vs a UR-standstill deck that was packed with 4 Spell Snare 3-4 blasts after board 2 Flusterstorm and 1-2 Counterspells and on top of that 3-4 Snapcaster Mage.
lets say it was a fight resolving anything of importance.

---

With Ein's list, clique isn't much of an issue. You've got 3 snapcasters and 3 blast effects, as well as council's judgment. I think I'd rather be able to slowly grind my opponent out of the game instead of trying to resolve a large entreat. The mirror has a lot to do with card advantage, and trying to both manage your opponent and keep entreat around until you can cast it gets very hectic, especially if you take out Jaces.

UR Standstill is a different beast altogether, and yes, I think Entreat is much better in this matchup than it is in Miracles. Jace is very bad against man-lands, while Angels will usually just kill them outright. I think switching up plans is fine against it, because, again, it's an entirely different beast.

Cards I'm interested in vs landstill include Council's Judgment, Blast effects, Counterspell, Vendilion Clique, and Engineered Explosives.
Cards I'm disinterested in vs landstill include Terminus, Jace, and Dig. Probably not all copies of Jace and Dig though. With so many counterspells flying around, Dig will be relatively easy to cast, and can singlehandedly get you back into a game. Jace also lets you try to gain back some of the card advantage that is stolen by standstill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exallium

UR Standstill is a different beast altogether, and yes, I think Entreat is much better in this matchup than it is in Miracles. Jace is very bad against man-lands, while Angels will usually just kill them outright. I think switching up plans is fine against it, because, again, it's an entirely different beast.

Cards I'm interested in vs landstill include Council's Judgment, Blast effects, Counterspell, Vendilion Clique, and Engineered Explosives.
Cards I'm disinterested in vs landstill include Terminus, Jace, and Dig. Probably not all copies of Jace and Dig though. With so many counterspells flying around, Dig will be relatively easy to cast, and can singlehandedly get you back into a game. Jace also lets you try to gain back some of the card advantage that is stolen by standstill.

---

UR-standstill feelt impossible. I guess only chance is resolving CB, but they have good controll on the 2CC, and as you point out jace is a joke when they have manlands. It was from this experience i thought about mirror again.

but as you point out I will stick to boarding out all the white cards.

I was wondering if somebody could explain me the benefits and uses of Engineered Explosives? When do you bring it in and what is the go to sunburst?
I havent played with it yet, but it looks like i would bring it in against pretty much every deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madsk

UR-standstill feelt impossible. I guess only chance is resolving CB, but they have good controll on the 2CC, and as you point out jace is a joke when they have manlands. It was from this experience i thought about mirror again.

but as you point out I will stick to boarding out all the white cards.

---

UR Standstill is just a straight up bad matchup. If you know it's going to be present in your Meta, I'd recommend some dedicated hate like Blood Moon. I've definitely beaten Landstill decks before, but it's rough (And I was running blood moon at the time). If your friend is up for it, try playing around with your board slots. Flusterstorm feels like it would be fantastic in this matchup as well, to help force through your win conditions.

What is really needed is a solid strategy, and unfortunately I don't have enough standstill experience to tell you exactly what that is. If you end up running against him a bunch more, and see a particular path working better than others, I'm sure we'd love to hear about it.

For me, I make sure everything is prioritized. Standstill is public enemy number 1, and I counter the card whenever I can. 3 cards is a lot of cards, and they get those cards before your spell resolves, regardless of what you do on the stack. My removal is used on Manlands when I can sneak them in, but I find if you have a decent life total you can take some hits. If you want to break standstill, do it in their end step, so they need to toss some cards. Generally, I like playing Vendilion Clique in their end step, as I can then normally get some damage in before they remove it and try to put the lock on again. Postboard, EE is a great way to get rid of future standstills, but make sure you play around snare as well as artifact hate they might be bringing in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by decan

I was wondering if somebody could explain me the benefits and uses of Engineered Explosives? When do you bring it in and what is the go to sunburst?
I havent played with it yet, but it looks like i would bring it in against pretty much every deck.

---

I bring EE in vs. the following:

Chalice Decks
Lands
Death and Taxes
RUG
Miracles
Empty the Warrens Decks
Jund
Merfolk
Elves

and others.

The number varies from deck to deck.

VS. chalice decks, It's generally zero as it's used to sweep up chalices.
VS. Lands, it's either zero or one. Zero hits Chalice and Mox, while One hits Manabonds and Exploration.
VS. Death and Taxes it depends. It's good Aether Vial removal, but it's also very good at clearing their board. Normally 1 or 2, depends on gamestate.
VS. RUG, it's normally on 1, as it's good removal for unflipped delvers and goose.
VS. Miracles, it's used to break up CB / Top, so I'll usually have it on 2. It sucks up snapcasters there too. Sometimes, it'll be on Zero to deal with a rouge Entreat the Angels
VS. Empty decks it's on Zero, which hits all of their artifacts as well as their goblin tokens. There's an argument for 1 as well, to deal with random hate cards.
VS. Jund, it's generally 2, which kills both bob and Goyf, but it's another Game state question. Do they have a null rod or pithing needle out? Do I have another way to deal with these creatures?
VS. Merfolk, it's 2 all the way once they have a board presence, otherwise it's normally 1. 1 Kills cursecatcher and more importantly aether vial, while on 2 it hits every frigging lord in their deck.
VS. Elves, it's 1. Hits most of their creatures as well as pithing needle.

Generally speaking, I'll only stick it on the table if I think that my opponent won't be able to interact with it, or if I'm going to use it the same turn.

Also, a note on Death and Taxes, if they have a Thalia in play, you can cast it X = 1 with one color, pay the extra with another color, and Sunburst is = 2. Neat way to sneak it down. They don't really have a way to deal with enchantments, so you can play around the extra cost restrictions of thalia and port fairly well. On 2 it kills Thalia and Stoneforge, as well as Spirit and other random hate, and Mom can't do anything about it.

Oh how I missed you legend miracles. Went 4-0 last night in the daily with double karakas, double venser, double misdirection in the 75.
And zero ponders obviously. That's how we do it boys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oarsman

Oh how I missed you legend miracles. Went 4-0 last night in the daily with double karakas, double venser, double misdirection in the 75.
And zero ponders obviously. That's how we do it boys.

---

Gemstone Caverns fits in with the legendary theme, you should squeeze a few in there.

Congrats!

Welcome back!!

Are we going to have to segregate the board into American and European players now? Don't do this to us. I can't handle it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oarsman

Oh how I missed you legend miracles. Went 4-0 last night in the daily with double karakas, double venser, double misdirection in the 75.
And zero ponders obviously. That's how we do it boys.

---

Heh, I just recently put my Venser back in the sideboard. Misdirection, though? I haven't seen Hymn recently. Thought that was half the reason to jam it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cipher

Heh, I just recently put my Venser back in the sideboard. Misdirection, though? I haven't seen Hymn recently. Thought that was half the reason to jam it.

---

Misdirect Abrupt Decay to anything BUG has, say Liliana, Goyf, Shardless Agent, sounds like a good play to me. Ancestral Vision is back, so should Misdirection.

Hey everyone, long-time reader first time poster. I saw someone on the previous page ask about the Painter matchup, which last week I played a ton of last week in tournament and during casuals. For this I'm going to assume one is playing Ein's Ponder build.

Painter is a tough matchup, but by no means unwinnable. They can have anywhere from 6-7 Pyro/REB effects in the 75, so in my eyes blue cards in general can become a liability. They also have around 6 Blood Moon effects in the mainboard, maindeck Ensnaring Bridge for Entreat, Recruiter to grab combo pieces, and Revoker.

Game 1 I think hitting Counterbalance as soon as possible and defending it is key to the matchup. This can be hard because of the all the Blast effects, but on the other hand once you resolve CB you can shut them down easily. Swords is very necessary to dealing with Painter's Servant, Revoker, and Jaya Ballard (usually a one-of). Council's Judgment is an MVP in this matchup due to it being white and hitting big problem cards: Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, and Grindstone. I feel that Entreat is one of the better ways to close the game out due to dodging Blasts, but it can be hard to resolve under a Blood Moon + a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. Jace meanwhile is weak to Blasts and Revoker, but not much else.

Game 2 +3 they usually bring in Ratchet Bomb to deal with Entreat, more Blast effects, Koth as an alt wincon, Thorn of Amethyst, and some form of artifact destruction (usually Manic Vandal b/c it's tutorable with Imperial Recruiter).

Knowing that, my sideboard plan would be roughly this:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Terminus
-1 Dig Through Time
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Disenchant
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Council's Judgment
+3 Flusterstorm

Needle hits Grindstone, Disenchant hits Grind + Bridge + Thorn, another Council's Judgment deals with it as well + Koth, Flusterstorm may be a little iffy, but I liked it a lot more than Force. Explosives is invaluable as well.

This isn't exhaustive nor detailed, but hopefully it helps people with the matchup a bit. I'd love to hear other's input on the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Well..., if you play Miracles, you need at least 1 Jace, you can use Dig for that slot in the mean time. Rip-Helm is by no means budget. It's good in a meta that's filled with goblins, and not as many Liliana/Jace.

---

I meant Budget as in I have no ability to get anything $75 or more.

I ran something like this:

1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Back to Basics
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Energy Field
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
6 Island
5 Plains

Without Jace is it better to run RIP Miracles, or something like RIP/Helm like Ryan Warner's 12 place finish:

1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Terminus
1 Luminarch Ascension
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Counterbalance
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
5 Plains
6 Island
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Energy Field
1 Humility
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
2 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Detention Sphere
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Greater Auramancy
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Daze
1 Back to Basics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Hey everyone, long-time reader first time poster. I saw someone on the previous page ask about the Painter matchup, which last week I played a ton of last week in tournament and during casuals. For this I'm going to assume one is playing Ein's Ponder build.

Painter is a tough matchup, but by no means unwinnable. They can have anywhere from 6-7 Pyro/REB effects in the 75, so in my eyes blue cards in general can become a liability. They also have around 6 Blood Moon effects in the mainboard, maindeck Ensnaring Bridge for Entreat, Recruiter to grab combo pieces, and Revoker.

Game 1 I think hitting Counterbalance as soon as possible and defending it is key to the matchup. This can be hard because of the all the Blast effects, but on the other hand once you resolve CB you can shut them down easily. Swords is very necessary to dealing with Painter's Servant, Revoker, and Jaya Ballard (usually a one-of). Council's Judgment is an MVP in this matchup due to it being white and hitting big problem cards: Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, and Grindstone. I feel that Entreat is one of the better ways to close the game out due to dodging Blasts, but it can be hard to resolve under a Blood Moon + a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. Jace meanwhile is weak to Blasts and Revoker, but not much else.

Game 2 +3 they usually bring in Ratchet Bomb to deal with Entreat, more Blast effects, Koth as an alt wincon, Thorn of Amethyst, and some form of artifact destruction (usually Manic Vandal b/c it's tutorable with Imperial Recruiter).

Knowing that, my sideboard plan would be roughly this:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Terminus
-1 Dig Through Time
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Disenchant
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Council's Judgment
+3 Flusterstorm

Needle hits Grindstone, Disenchant hits Grind + Bridge + Thorn, another Council's Judgment deals with it as well + Koth, Flusterstorm may be a little iffy, but I liked it a lot more than Force. Explosives is invaluable as well.

This isn't exhaustive nor detailed, but hopefully it helps people with the matchup a bit. I'd love to hear other's input on the subject.

---

OK thanks for the answer !
Why are you boarding in Flusterstorms if that doesn't hit any of the combo pieces and why are you boarding out FoWs? IMHO we're still playing against a combo deck...

Hello everybody! Long time lurker, first time poster here!
Recently I managed to win a local legacy tournament with Ein's decklist, modified to my liking and local metagame.
Maindeck
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

Sideboard
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Wear // Tear
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyroblast

A report from the tournament:
Round 1: BYE

Round 2: Esper Deathblade
Game 1: He plays an early Dark Confidant off a Deathrite Shaman and starts beating me with both. The Confidant flipped a Batterskull and few lands, while I cast 3 Ponders and a Brainstorm to find a Terminus. After wiping the board, I landed a Sensei's Divining Top and Jace, while he found Liliana of the Veil and Jace with a freshly cast Dark Confidant. I managed to ambush him with Entreat the Angels (for 3 angels), when he attacked my Jace for the second time with the Confidant. Angels took care of Lily and Jace and another EtA made next attack lethal.
Game 2: After another Deathrite Shaman into Dark Confidant, an end of turn Brainstorm ensured a timely and miraculous Terminus. He tried to land a True-Name Nemesis, but luckily I had a red Elemental Blast while he was holding a hand full of lands. Jace on the following turn made him concede.
Round 2:0; Total: 2:0

Round 3: RUG Delver
This player is known for playing URx Delver decks and the recent bannings of Treasure Cruise made him return to the green splash. In the previous tournament he steamrolled me with the UR version with Cruises.
Game 1: In the first couple of turns I used a Swords to plowshares on a Goyf and 2 Delvers, while terminating the annoying Nimble Mongoose. Still he managed to get me to 5 life and cast a new Mongoose. During my turn I had to cast EtA for single angel and hope didn't have 2 bolts in his hand. On his turn a Goyf joined his team. Reluctant to trade a Mongoose and a Forked bolt for angel, he burned me for 2 at the end of my turn. During his upkeep I tried to cast a Snapcaster with StP in graveyard, who was met with the last 2 cards in his hand - one being Force of Will, of course. When he attacked with both creatures I cast StP from hand and blocked the Mongoose with the angel. While he had an empty hand, I took over the game with Jace and CB + Top lock and beat him from 26 to 0. During sideboarding we chatted about game and he confessed that the Snapcaster blindsided him and he was caught with the StP from hand.

Game 2: His deck performed like a beast. I didn't have a chance to cast anything relevant. SDT found me a Terminus when I was at 6 life and 2 bolts revealed from his hand meant: Better luck next game.
Game 3: Turn 1 SDT was met with turn 1 Delver, which flipped immediately after revealing Stifle. I sent him farming right before another one joined the team. When he used Stifle on Terminus revealed during his turn on Brainstorm, I tried to cast Vendilion Clique in order to block the flying insect. Clique got countered with his last card in hand pitched to Force of Will. On my turn I landed CB and Snapcaster for StP. Snapcaster started beating from 22 to 0 and an EtA ensured he conceded before the last few attacks.
Round 2:1; Total: 3:0

Round 4: MonoR Burn
During the first round I got to see that my opponent for this round was playing Burn. And she was using evil sideboard cards like Scald and Sulfuric Vortex. Oh boy, this could hurt.
Game 1: With me on the play, we both keep a 1-lander. I had Ponder, Brainstorm, SDT and was hoping that she would open with Goblin Guide to make the land draws for me. I saw 2 lands from Ponder, which meant I didn't make a mistake by keeping my opener. Meanwhile she didn't draw her second Mountain until turn 10 or so. By that time, I had already established full control with CB and Jace.
Game 2: Karma is a bitch. Opening 7 – no lander. 6 – no lander. 5 – still no lands. At this point I actually checked if I somehow messed up sideboarding and left lands out. I didn't. Keep next 4: 2 lands and SDT with Ponder. I was dead as a Dodo on turn 4.
Game 3: We both keep. While I start with Ponder, she immediately starts with Bolting my ass. On her second turn she suspends two Rift Bolts. At this moment karma changed her mind and switched sides again. Drop land no. 3 and play Eidolon of Rhetoric. Woohoo! Her tempo comes to a screeching halt, while I slowly fill the board with CB, Jace and lands. A few turns later she cast Ensnaring Bridge and I blind flipped Entreat the Angels on the Counterbalance trigger.
Round 2:1; Total: 4:0

Round 5: Junk
My opponent in this round is known for playing slowly and contemplating every possible line of play to the last detail. I knew he was packing the Dark Depths combo with the Life from the Loam package, which meant that if I didn't win game 1 I would probably lose the round.
Game 1: We both struggle with slow starts and nothing relevant. I played it safe with fetching all basics, with him having turn 1 Life from the loam and Wasteland in the graveyard. After he dredged Volrath's Stronghold, he started bringing Dark Confidants from graveyard to the battlefield. With a few StPs and Snapcasters I got to kill all four of them before they revealed even a single card. I got to land a Jace and force his Liliana while clearing the board of Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary with Terminus. With 6 minutes left in the round I summoned and army of angels for the lead.
Game 2: I keep a hand with 2 lands, 2 Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Ponder. We quickly agreed that neither of us could win in the 5 extra turns.
Round 1:0; Total: 5:0

Round 6: Jund
Game 1: I sent his Goyf packing before I got hit with Hymn to Tourach for a land and Council's Judgement and then Terminus sent a Deathrite Shaman and a fresh Bloodbraid Elf with Dark Confidant to the bottom of his library. After the dust cleared it all came down to a battle of planeswalkers - Jace vs. Lily. While Jace brainstormed and provided lands for discarding, Snapcaster held his Lily under control. When I could protect my army of angels from Maelstrom Pulse, my opponents conceded.
Game 2: The game basically repeated itself. Somehow we got to a game state where I was at 7 life and Jace at 11 loyalty. I was fatesealing him every turn, mostly leaving cards on top (he had really bad draws, I believe I put only one card on the bottom). All this time he was slinging Punishing Fire at me and Jace. (I don't know why he didn't just finish Jace). When I found Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top with another CB on top of library, he admitted defeat with a hearty hand shake.
Round 2:0; Total: 6:0

The deck performed like a boss and I would not change a single card in maindeck. But sideboard? It was tweaked to match my personal preference and local metagame (few Delver decks, mostly midrange stuff like Junk, Jund and BUG, with single deck appearances like Storm, Elves, Reanimator, 12post, D&T, Infect…)

I am interested in your thoughts about some sideboard choices. The following cards are constantly in and out of my sideboard and I am never sure what to do with them:
- Engineering Explosives: while I am big fan of this card, somehow I can't find a spot and use for it in the 75. I would put it in if I were playing Academy Ruins, though (but that is bad, I know)
- Baneslayer Angel: while lifelink is tempting, I find it too slow to make an impact on the game
- Izzet Staticaster: shouldn't I use EE instead? Although flashing it in and sniping a bunch of elves, elementals or goblins is awesome
- Keranos, God of Storms: personal favourite extra win condition for grindy matchups. I prefer diverse threats due to Surgical Extraction being played a lot here
- Disenchant vs. Wear // Tear: is the demand for the red source not worth the chance to net 2 targets?
- Blood Moon: I play 6 basics and this card alone can seal the game vs. 12post, infect and greedy midrange deck with zero or only a single basic land
- Containment Priest: maybe I should just pack random topdecked reanimation effects or sneak attack/show and tell/natural order into the shit happens category and move on?

I really like Keranos in a BG infested meta. It's nearly impossible for them to deal with, and the games are grindy and long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

On a unrelated note: What tokens do you use and what basic lands do you use?

---

Tokens I made myself and Beta Basics :laugh:


http://s7.postimg.org/nle1tbw3u/smal...es_2_13_15.jpg

Hi, run into 3 interesting situations testing G1 Miracles vs. Storm - what would you do? (up to date Ponder list -Council's Judgement +Counterspell)

1.
OP - 3 tapped lands in play, Infernal Tutor on the stack, 3B3R floating, hellbent - 12+ card in GY, relevant cards are Past in Flames and Dark Ritual (IT for Cabal Ritual Ritual is lethal)
YOU - hellbent, Sensei's Divining Top, 1 tapped Island and 2 untapped fetchlands in play (2 Counterspell and 3 Terminus left in the deck)

A - fetch both blindflip for Counterspell countering Infernal Tutor
B - ..... countering Ad Nauseam/flashbacked Past in flames and risk Empty the Warrens
C - plan to counter lethal Infernal tutor after flashbacks

2.
YOU - Tundra, go (hand = 2x Counterbalance, Counterspell, 2x fetchland + irrelevant cards)
OP - Gitaxian Probe, land, Brainstorm, pass
YOU - Draw a Brainstorm, play a fetchland

A - fetch, slam Counterbalance
B - fetch, pass
C - pass

3.
OP - starts, T1 Gitaxian Probe reveales - Counterspell, Island, Snapcaster, Counterbalance, Jace, STP, Ponder .. Counterbalance gets discarded
YOU - Island, Ponder - shuffle, draw a land, pass
OP - Brainstorm, fetchland, fetch, Ponder, pass
YOU - draw a FOW

A - you play the land
B - you play the land, fetch
C - you don't play the land

1. here you are almost dead. If they are smart enought they will kill with tendrils. So the only out you have is fetch and blind flip counterspell


2. Land pass. Bs eot to get rid of extra cb and find lands

3 play the fetch and brainstorm eot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Hi, run into 3 interesting situations testing G1 Miracles vs. Storm - what would you do? (up to date Ponder list -Council's Judgement +Counterspell)

1.
OP - 3 tapped lands in play, Infernal Tutor on the stack, 3B3R floating, hellbent - 12+ card in GY, relevant cards are Past in Flames and Dark Ritual (IT for Cabal Ritual Ritual is lethal)
YOU - hellbent, Sensei's Divining Top, 1 tapped Island and 2 untapped fetchlands in play (2 Counterspell and 3 Terminus left in the deck)

A - fetch both blindflip for Counterspell countering Infernal Tutor
B - ..... countering Ad Nauseam/flashbacked Past in flames and risk Empty the Warrens
C - plan to counter lethal Infernal tutor after flashbacks

---

I think you just go for the blind draw right away. If OP knows your only out is counterspell, there's a chance he'll play around it. Try to cut him off while you can, he's already hellbent. But its a slim margin and you are probably dead already :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

2.
YOU - Tundra, go (hand = 2x Counterbalance, Counterspell, 2x fetchland + irrelevant cards)
OP - Gitaxian Probe, land, Brainstorm, pass
YOU - Draw a Brainstorm, play a fetchland

A - fetch, slam Counterbalance
B - fetch, pass
C - pass

---

Play the fetchland and BS EOT; this leaves up CS in case something happens, or allows you to hide a CB from Therapy while setting up your CB for next turn (or fetching away irrelevant cards, depending on what you draw off BS)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

3.
OP - starts, T1 Gitaxian Probe reveales - Counterspell, Island, Snapcaster, Counterbalance, Jace, STP, Ponder .. Counterbalance gets discarded
YOU - Island, Ponder - shuffle, draw a land, pass
OP - Brainstorm, fetchland, fetch, Ponder, pass
YOU - draw a FOW

A - you play the land
B - you play the land, fetch
C - you don't play the land

---

Are you trying to bluff missing your land drop? I don't think that's very effective. There is a good chance they could hit your hand with another duress effect if they are ready to go off, which nullifies the FOW... Definitely play the land, pass, then you have both CS and FOW(w/Snap or Jace) up, with the chance to draw another CB off the top or something. You need to hit your land drops against Storm to make sure all your countermagic is always live; CS is worthless to have if you can't even play it! You want the extra mana if you draw Top also. Play the land.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Hi, run into 3 interesting situations testing G1 Miracles vs. Storm - what would you do? (up to date Ponder list -Council's Judgement +Counterspell)

---

In general, if you run Ponder Miracles and it's game 1 against storm, you are not favored. The decision making in this game will be mostly straightforward. As you described in all 3 situations, there are not many alternatives. The fact that Storm players probe-ed, makes the decision path even easier.

To reiterate the obvious, the key in this MU game 1 is the fact that if you successfully land CB-T, Storm has no AD to deal with it.

Regarding those Storm questions. First of all, I doesn't think that this MU is unfavourable at all, although you have to be a bit lucky to win pre-board. 1 and 3 is answered easily (you're dead, you drop a Land), but 2 is interesting.

I say, you Slam CB, always, for numerous reasons:

• it is unlikely that she'll go off on turn two, statistically this happens most times on turn three or four
• there won't be any better time to play CB than your turn two. You need your resources for counter and card quality and can't risk tapping two mana in your mainphase in the following turns
• A blind CB induces stress, because she have to think which card she can expense to test your top library card
• if you slam your CB without thinking too long they have to assume that you have FoW in hand
• therefore a CB leads to longer games because your opponents have to find a Way through CB plus counters, and the best strategy for that without AD is abusing the stack to get us out of resources. This gives us time to collect counters and filter useless cards from our hands. (Sitenote: In this MU, you always want to have as much blue cards in your hand as possible as pitch cards for FoW)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by acidhead

Regarding those Storm questions. First of all, I doesn't think that this MU is unfavourable at all, although you have to be a bit lucky to win pre-board. 1 and 3 is answered easily (you're dead, you drop a Land), but 2 is interesting.

I say, you Slam CB, always, for numerous reasons:

• it is unlikely that she'll go off on turn two, statistically this happens most times on turn three or four
• there won't be any better time to play CB than your turn two. You need your resources for counter and card quality and can't risk tapping two mana in your mainphase in the following turns
• A blind CB induces stress, because she have to think which card she can expense to test your top library card
• if you slam your CB without thinking too long they have to assume that you have FoW in hand
• therefore a CB leads to longer games because your opponents have to find a Way through CB plus counters, and the best strategy for that without AD is abusing the stack to get us out of resources. This gives us time to collect counters and filter useless cards from our hands. (Sitenote: In this MU, you always want to have as much blue cards in your hand as possible as pitch cards for FoW)

---

He's right!

And another point is that a land (0), a 1-drop, a 2-drop or even a jace or fow on top is likely to stop a combo on turn 2. Just slam the CB!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by acidhead

Regarding those Storm questions. First of all, I doesn't think that this MU is unfavourable at all, although you have to be a bit lucky to win pre-board. 1 and 3 is answered easily (you're dead, you drop a Land), but 2 is interesting.

I say, you Slam CB, always

---

Storm player was on the draw, went Gitaxian, then Brainstorm. Leading with Brainstorm turn 1 off a land (not a Lotus Petal) is generally a huge misplay when piloting Ant, therefore it most probably means he was looking for something specific to go off, for example a second ritual or tutor. For sure not an artifact because after seeing CB in your hand he would have dropped it turn 1 because the chance of you flipping a land with CB are higher than any other casting cost. So my prediction/advise is, stay UU open, because he could have the turn two kill with no protection…
Slamming CB is a good play anyways! I would not do that, but is a fine play.

Edit: another possibility is that he had Petal/Cabal Therapy in hand and was looking for Cabal Therapy/Petal, and his hand still needed to be sculpted through cantrips and he had no turn 2 kill...In this case CB is the correct play.

lets talk about show and tell matches. Lets consider they are boarding 3 defense grid against us.

Turn 1 : she plays land pass
You: land + sensei
Turn 2 : she plays defense grid

Situation1
Your hand: flusterstorm 2lands fow 2xreb

1. Fow the defense grid removing fluster
2. Let resolve

Situation2
Your hand: 1cb 1fow 2xlands 1xsnap 1fluster

1. Fow defense
2. Let resolve and deploy cb
3. Let resolve, land pass holding fluster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by order

lets talk about show and tell matches. Lets consider they are boarding 3 defense grid against us.

Turn 1 : she plays land pass
You: land + sensei
Turn 2 : she plays defense grid

Situation1
Your hand: flusterstorm 2lands fow 2xreb

1. Fow the defense grid removing fluster
2. Let resolve

Situation2
Your hand: 1cb 1fow 2xlands 1xsnap 1fluster

1. Fow defense
2. Let resolve and deploy cb
3. Let resolve, land pass holding fluster

---

At least tell us if you have one or more Volcs/fetches already on the battlefield or hand ^^
I'd fow that, as double Reb should be fine trying to stop her first attempt.

-----

Fow again, CB is certainly not enough here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by acidhead

Regarding those Storm questions. First of all, I doesn't think that this MU is unfavourable at all, although you have to be a bit lucky to win pre-board. 1 and 3 is answered easily (you're dead, you drop a Land), but 2 is interesting.

I say, you Slam CB, always, for numerous reasons:

---

The MU overall is even. To be specific, we're discussing about Game 1, which is what the original poster did, he tested pre-board a bunch of games. The issue he brought up is the fact that Storm player probed you, so he knows what he needs to play around, if any. Say you intend to fight Storm game 1 with your counter-magic, probe + therapy will deter that plan. So I do agree with you game 1, you have to slam CB reasonably early, but not in the specific situations the original poster described.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by order

lets talk about show and tell matches. Lets consider they are boarding 3 defense grid against us.

---

This way of opening a question is flawed. Since it's a SB match, you should let us know it's Sneak and Show or Omni-tell. Both decks run Grid in the SB I believe.

Its against sneak show and we have 2 fetches in hand

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

The MU overall is even. To be specific, we're discussing about Game 1, which is what the original poster did, he tested pre-board a bunch of games.

---

Ah, ok!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

The issue he brought up is the fact that Storm player probed you, so he knows what he needs to play around, if any.

---

Yeah, and this bothers any of my points because of...? I don't get it, sorry!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Say you intend to fight Storm game 1 with your counter-magic, probe + therapy will deter that plan. So I do agree with you game 1, you have to slam CB reasonably early, but not in the specific situations the original poster described.

---

Please explain me why.

Played the following list at a local Legacy tournament today (with 15 people)

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
3 Dig Through Time
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboad:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blood Moon
1 Disenchant

Round 1 Manaless Dredge (2-1): Game One he won the die roll and then chose to draw, so I already knew what was up. I found no interaction, and quickly scooped. Game Two I put him on the play, and a turn 2 Relic slowed him down significantly. Mentor on turn 4 closed things out quickly. Game 3, he missed a couple of triggers, and a Relic was able to snag 2/3 of his Dread Returns. I FoW'd his 3rd one, and Mentor + double Top loop was generating more creatures than his 3 active Bridges.

Round 2 TES (2-1): Game One we both mulled to 6, and he got us both basically hellbent after 3 discard spells. Eventually he resolved an Ad Nauseam and found a bunch of mana, and then Burning Wish'd for a Tendrils. Game Two I established Top + Counterbalance and floated a Clique on top since I knew he plays Wipe Away. He was able to resolve an Ad Nauseam finding an Abrupt Decay, but tapped out in the process. So I main-phased the Clique to bottom the Decay. The game took a bit because he resolved 2 Xantid Swarm early, but I just floated a 2 on top, which he couldn't beat. Game 3 I was able to hit a Petal + LED with an EE. Clique + Snapcaster got there while he was tied up on mana.

Round 3 Esper Stoneblade (2-0): Game One I was able to get a Top + Counterbalance lock going, and threatening him with both Jace and Mentor. Game Two was extremely long and grindy, and DTT was an all star. I eventually killed him with Jace.

Round 4 Shardless BUG (2-1): I was the only 3-0, so I had to play this out. Game One he kept a very slow hand, and I was able to out-grind him. Game Two he resolved turn 3 Liliana, followed by a turn 4 Jace (with FoW backup), and I quickly scooped for time concerns. Game Three was extremely long. I kept a one land Top hand. He played a Deathrite on turn one. On turn 2, I spin in my upkeep to find an Arid Mesa. On his turn, he cascades into a Pithing Needle, which I Spell Pierce, and he FoWs back. Needle resolves, and obviously names Top. At this point, I was in bad shape, but I was able to rattle off the right combination of lands and answers. Eventually chaining DTTs pull me back to into the game, and lets me resolve a Jace on a board of just 2 Shardless Agents, though I am at 8 life. He starts attacking me instead of Jace, and gets me down to 1, but Jace finds the limited number of answers left in my deck (basically an EE, a Snapcaster for a Plow in the yard, and a Terminus). Jace fateseal wins right before time is called.

Overall, I loved the deck, and thought DTT was extremely powerful in this shell. Mentor was strong in the combo matchups, and fine against Esper Blade. I sided it out against BUG, since I knew his sideboard was full of hate, and I was trying to brick Decay. I would definitely find room for the 4th Divining Top going forward, probably -2 Spell Pierce, +1 top +1 Counterbalance. The sideboard was a bit of a mess, and skewed this way because I had been getting housed by Lands the past few weeks playing other blue decks. I actually cut a second Surgical Extraction right before the event, and laughed pretty hard when I was paired against Dredge r1.

I've been seeing alot of Miracle lists running 2-3 Dig Through Time. On paper it seemed like a natural fit so I tested them out. After quite a bit of testing, something very obvious stood out, the deck has waaaaayyy too many dead cards in the opening hand if you include Dig in the deck. Even with 4 Terminus and 2 Entreat, the deck already has alot of cards you don't want to see in your opening hand. If you throw in another 3 Digs, you are looking at 9 dead cards in the opening hand. Mulligan rates can increase quite a bit with Dig.

This just increases the chance of having dead cards stranded in hand which is a major Miracles problem. I understand dig is a major bomb in the mid to late game, but it doesn't matter if you can't get to the late game. This deck also doesn't fill the yard as fast as other more proactive decks like Stoneblade or Delver. I've also been experimenting with the Punishing Grove combo in the deck as end game gas instead of Dig. Punishing fire is relevant in the early game by picking of creatures like Deathrites, Sfm and Delvers. In the end game Punishing Fire crushes Planeswalkers and Tarpits etc which are generally a major problem for Miracles. Punishing fire also has a very friendly casting cost for Countertop. It increases my 2 cc count for more consistent Counterbalance flips compared to Dig.

I've noticed my Rug Delver matchup dropped from 55-45 to 50-50 due to my more vulnerable manabase. However my other midrange to control matchups all increase by 5-10%. I think it's generally a worthwhile sacrifice if the meta is very Midrange with Jund, Shardless or Bug Delver/ Stoneblade.

What does your manabase look like with pfire?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moa

What does your manabase look like with pfire?

---

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
1 Plains

I also run 2 Ponders to smoothen out the draws a little bit. The manabase isn't reduced to a pile of crap or anything, but it isn't as waste proof as it used to be. Not having space for Karakas hurts too but the deck can only play that many non blue sources. I also don't run any MD cliques so Karakas is not as essential in my build. 4 Tundras are necessary unfortunately to up the white source count to 15.

The manabase looks more like the usual Stoneblade manabase now (with Grove being wastelands or colourless utility lands like Mishra's factory or Academy Ruins) which isn't terrible, it's pretty solid. Having said that, expect to take a significant hit in your win percentage against RUG Delver lists with Stifle. Wasteland alone won't affect the manabase much but Wasteland and Stifle can be a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ivanpei

I've been seeing alot of Miracle lists running 2-3 Dig Through Time. On paper it seemed like a natural fit so I tested them out. After quite a bit of testing, something very obvious stood out, the deck has waaaaayyy too many dead cards in the opening hand if you include Dig in the deck. Even with 4 Terminus and 2 Entreat, the deck already has alot of cards you don't want to see in your opening hand. If you throw in another 3 Digs, you are looking at 9 dead cards in the opening hand. Mulligan rates can increase quite a bit with Dig.

---

I agree with you in principle. However, people like Renelt are just following the Duke. Duke's been doing his thing for a while now.

Houston had lots of Miracles, the usual suspects: Renelt and Bass. Henly and Sullano were rocking with Ein's latest list. I find it funny when Miracles took 2nd and 3rd while Food Chain took the trophy. StP didn't work too well in the final I suppose.