[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

How do we feel about Traverse the Ulvenwald? Sorry if this has been asked before but it seems like it could be OKAY. if you have delirium its basically the same as GSZ for any color and could help bring 1-of sun titan strategy back for recurring deeds to help take over games? Has anyone had much experience with trying it out? I don't feel like much shifting would have to be done to ensure delirium, things like running Nissa, Vastwood seer (does she count as both in the GY?) or even a 1-of courser of kruphix (for extra typing.) or even a super sweet one of eyeblight's end! (go tribal! Lol.) it would get you some sweet toolboxing with lands too for late game stuff - karakas being the only thing that REALLY comes to mind that you might wanna search up though...

It's not good enough. Zenith is gold because it can get you a Vet on turn two if you need to ramp, and still be a wincon or utility late game. Traverse does the latter (sometimes) but never does the former. There isn't enough benefit to mitigate how bad Traverse is early game.

If you want to find Sun Titan, just run Fierce Empath and Zenith for it that way.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

It's not good enough. Zenith is gold because it can get you a Vet on turn two if you need to ramp, and still be a wincon or utility late game. Traverse does the latter (sometimes) but never does the former. There isn't enough benefit to mitigate how bad Traverse is early game.

If you want to find Sun Titan, just run Fierce Empath and Zenith for it that way.

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BUG lists could mitigate those negatives very well. Easier to enable delirium thanks to Brainstorm and Baleful Strix, there is already less point in running GSZ, you have Brainstorm (as much as I loathe the card, it's good) to smooth out early land drops and lack of having Vet in the opener. As long as you have delirium, it is a vastly improved GSZ since it tutors any creature/land and basically costs the same, right?

Maybe we just need a few more busted blue/black 3-4 cmc creature cards to really help make it pay off though.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

It's not good enough. Zenith is gold because it can get you a Vet on turn two if you need to ramp, and still be a wincon or utility late game. Traverse does the latter (sometimes) but never does the former. There isn't enough benefit to mitigate how bad Traverse is early game.

If you want to find Sun Titan, just run Fierce Empath and Zenith for it that way.

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eh, its still a land early which isn't awful. Obv vet is two and ramps, but its not completely inconsequential. and it gets better than GSZ late by allowing you to get a land if you need it or whatever creature will win you the game. Fierce Empath is cool, but is still gonna cost you 4 mana with GSZ. and there's TBH no reason you couldn't run like 3 GSZ and 2 Ulvenwald or something.

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Originally Posted by Corgimancer

How do we feel about Traverse the Ulvenwald? Sorry if this has been asked before but it seems like it could be OKAY. if you have delirium its basically the same as GSZ for any color and could help bring 1-of sun titan strategy back for recurring deeds to help take over games? Has anyone had much experience with trying it out? I don't feel like much shifting would have to be done to ensure delirium, things like running Nissa, Vastwood seer (does she count as both in the GY?) or even a 1-of courser of kruphix (for extra typing.) or even a super sweet one of eyeblight's end! (go tribal! Lol.) it would get you some sweet toolboxing with lands too for late game stuff - karakas being the only thing that REALLY comes to mind that you might wanna search up though...

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It's surprisingly difficult to turn on because Cabal Therapy (and if you still run too, GSZ) don't help your delirium count. Cards like Eternal Witness actively work against it too.

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Originally Posted by Corgimancer

How do we feel about Traverse the Ulvenwald? Sorry if this has been asked before but it seems like it could be OKAY. if you have delirium its basically the same as GSZ for any color and could help bring 1-of sun titan strategy back for recurring deeds to help take over games? Has anyone had much experience with trying it out? I don't feel like much shifting would have to be done to ensure delirium, things like running Nissa, Vastwood seer (does she count as both in the GY?) or even a 1-of courser of kruphix (for extra typing.) or even a super sweet one of eyeblight's end! (go tribal! Lol.) it would get you some sweet toolboxing with lands too for late game stuff - karakas being the only thing that REALLY comes to mind that you might wanna search up though...

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I'm trying it out in junk (rhino) fit. Running a 3/3 split with GSZ for now. Too early to draw any conclusions, but fetching a land is not bad. The deck needs to hit land drops to operate, especially vs delver decks, and this thing helps. My biggest problem with nicfit is usually dying to mana screw or at least to not being able to power out stuff in time. My goal is consistency. We will see.

As for late game, it allows you to fetch Sun Titan (I did add one to the list to see if it is worth it), but on the other hand, it also does not play well vs counterbalance and people will just counter the creature you're getting instead of this.

Was also thinking about adding Volrath's S. again (otherwise only good with Primeval Titan).

Consensus on Traverse so far, in a nutshell: A lot of potential, but it's probably too hard to turn on Delirium to be reliable. The late game benefits are obvious enough, but the biggest worry is that it doesn't do enough in the early game, where you'd really want it most (since we want to reach the mid/late game as quickly as possible).

That being said, I've been having some discussions with Brael and simulations he ran pointed out that we'd want to run a lot more lands than we currently do (upwards of 25 even, possibly). Considering that, Traverse could be viewed as a pseudo-land (looking back at the SE Fit approach) that turns into something good in the lategame. Only question that remains is how reliably can we turn Delirium on in the late game (i.e. past turn 4 or so)?

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Consensus on Traverse so far, in a nutshell: A lot of potential, but it's probably too hard to turn on Delirium to be reliable. The late game benefits are obvious enough, but the biggest worry is that it doesn't do enough in the early game, where you'd really want it most (since we want to reach the mid/late game as quickly as possible).

That being said, I've been having some discussions with Brael and simulations he ran pointed out that we'd want to run a lot more lands than we currently do (upwards of 25 even, possibly). Considering that, Traverse could be viewed as a pseudo-land (looking back at the SE Fit approach) that turns into something good in the lategame. Only question that remains is how reliably can we turn Delirium on in the late game (i.e. past turn 4 or so)?

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You'd need to run an enabler of some kind, like how standard BG Delirium is running Grapple with the Past at the moment. Tracker's Instincts is an older card that does something similar and might be better. The other large problem with Delirium is not just turning it on, but also KEEPING it on. This is Legacy. People run Rest in Peace. They run Deathrite Shaman. Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt; you name it, they run it. The biggest offender of these is probably Deathrite -- until and unless Deathrite gets banned, I don't see Delirium being realistic to consider, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Why would you play anything over anything? What is your thought into putting this question?
If your looking to straight out win, then pick a tier 1 deck.
Picking one of the NicFit variants can be a specific local meta choice.
If your looking for the 'experience' then that is very personal.
What NicFit offers:
The toolbox nature of the deck.
Pernicious Deed.
Cmc > 3 creatures.
Not die to wasteland.
Get to play some actual magic.
It never bores.
Closest thing to Survival of the Fittest (pre Vengevine).
Beating T1 decks makes your opponents cry (they hate loosing to standard/edh cards).
This awesome thread.
Be the coolest kid at your lgs.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

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I'm a bit slow acting, but after reading the above (which is an answer to a post I did) I was convinced to look (and proxy) seriously into this deck and, well, I'm now one of the cool kids. :cool:

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

This is Legacy. People run Rest in Peace. They run Deathrite Shaman. Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt; you name it, they run it. The biggest offender of these is probably Deathrite -- until and unless Deathrite gets banned, I don't see Delirium being realistic to consider, unfortunately.

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Excellent point.

The best way to achieve Delirium is running artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers. All of these are things that Deathrite Shaman can't eat. Unless a deck is running a lot of artifacts, enchantments, and/or planeswalkers to begin with, Delirium isn't worth considering. Also, because it's so hard to turn on, your payoff card ought to win you the game. Something like Emrakul, the Promised End would be decent in a deck built around Delirium. Intuition would be another strong Delirium enabler. Postboard, though, you would then run the risk of graveyard hate coming in, so the deck would need all the cards to be useful on their own, and maybe the Delirium-based haymakers could get swapped out for more traditional finishers not reliant on the graveyard.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

That being said, I've been having some discussions with Brael and simulations he ran pointed out that we'd want to run a lot more lands than we currently do (upwards of 25 even, possibly). Considering that, Traverse could be viewed as a pseudo-land (looking back at the SE Fit approach) that turns into something good in the lategame. Only question that remains is how reliably can we turn Delirium on in the late game (i.e. past turn 4 or so)?

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Well, I have some experience with Traverse in Modern. When it was printed until a couple weeks ago I was running a RUG Delver build that was pretty happy to fire Traverse off early for a land if needed and cash it in for good cards late if not. Traverse passes the same test GSZ passes in that it can be used for land which is mandatory for a toolbox effect in my opinion, but it doesn't assist with acceleration which makes it a little worse.

I found that turning on Delirium in Modern was hard enough despite RUG Delver being the perfect deck to do so. I think it's even harder in this deck. Most people have looked at Baleful Strix as the enabler but I would also suggest Architect of Will and probably even Shardless Agent. The big problem from where I'm sitting lies in keeping Delirium turned on. I'm confident that it will eventually find it's way into a deck but I don't think we have all the necessary tools yet.

@Arianrhod & Brael: Good points!

So... Traverse the Ulvenwald - The Danger Of Cool Things!

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

You'd need to run an enabler of some kind, like how standard BG Delirium is running Grapple with the Past at the moment. Tracker's Instincts is an older card that does something similar and might be better. The other large problem with Delirium is not just turning it on, but also KEEPING it on. This is Legacy. People run Rest in Peace. They run Deathrite Shaman. Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt; you name it, they run it. The biggest offender of these is probably Deathrite -- until and unless Deathrite gets banned, I don't see Delirium being realistic to consider, unfortunately.

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Well, I agree completely. However, I am testing Traverse as a way to assure I make all my land drops in turns 1-5. This ability is not turned off by DRS and the like.

The delirium part is the cherry on top. I only have a 1 off Sun Titan to fetch if needed, but the card is playable without Traverse.

I shaved a land (down to 21) to fit 3 copies if Traverse. The card acts like land 22-24 with "creature cycling" if you are flooded. Fact is, that the matchup we will want the delirium part the most is Miracles, but then again since we board out Vers against them, we might end up fetching lands :-D

Edit: I also considered Grapple with the Past in its place. That card fills the same role, but it's easier to disrupt.

Hello All,

New Nic Fit (and Legacy) player here.

I was wondering, after seeing TWoo's Splendid Dredge deck in Modern, if a Jund Fit shell could support a Splendid Reclamation-Wish angle instead of the ScapeWish angle. Possible obvious cards:
Squandered Resources
Titania, Protector of Argoth

I did some testing of Splendid Reclamation, but it has a few problems. Most notably, even if you get to a point where you can kill people, a single DRS exiling Valakuts ruins your day.

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Originally Posted by crush

Well, I agree completely. However, I am testing Traverse as a way to assure I make all my land drops in turns 1-5. This ability is not turned off by DRS and the like.

The delirium part is the cherry on top. I only have a 1 off Sun Titan to fetch if needed, but the card is playable without Traverse.

I shaved a land (down to 21) to fit 3 copies if Traverse. The card acts like land 22-24 with "creature cycling" if you are flooded. Fact is, that the matchup we will want the delirium part the most is Miracles, but then again since we board out Vers against them, we might end up fetching lands :-D

Edit: I also considered Grapple with the Past in its place. That card fills the same role, but it's easier to disrupt.

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The best way to make your land drops is SDT, and card advantage. That's why I use Bob and Courser plus the Tops, plus the ability to GSZ for mana sources. The basic land off of Traverse can be used in a pinch, but it's slow. Traverse can only replace your land drop, GSZ can give you another mana source in addition to letting you make a land drop so it's a bit more versatile.

Traverse can work in this situation but it's the sort of thing you should only be doing if you can't use GSZ.

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Originally Posted by Brael

The best way to make your land drops is SDT, and card advantage. That's why I use Bob and Courser plus the Tops, plus the ability to GSZ for mana sources. The basic land off of Traverse can be used in a pinch, but it's slow. Traverse can only replace your land drop, GSZ can give you another mana source in addition to letting you make a land drop so it's a bit more versatile.

Traverse can work in this situation but it's the sort of thing you should only be doing if you can't use GSZ.

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I continue to be impressed with the value that can be gained from playing SDT with Courser. Are you playing Dryad Arbor?


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Have you seen this guy?

Daretti, ingenious iconoclast

I just note that it's works really good with Tireless Tracker (sac an hint to destroy a creature/artefact, so trigger +1/+1 of Tracker).

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

Have you seen this guy?

Daretti, ingenious iconoclast

I just note that it's works really good with Tireless Tracker (sac an hint to destroy a creature/artefact, so trigger +1/+1 of Tracker).

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He has interesting abilities but overall he isn't quite impactful. I'm not sure if the punishing fit decks would have him. That kind of synergy is too clunky and doesn't seem worth it. I'd much rather draw off the clues than use them as fodder.

I took a 4 colour build to a tournament yesterday. Went 3-1-1 (went to time in the last round) and lost after the cut to the same player I lost to in the Swiss.

2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
9 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Reclamation Sage

Round 1 - Burning Reanimator

I know what he's on, and win the die roll.

Game 1 I Therapy naming Entomb - he has one, and proceeds to untap and Gamble into LED, Petal, crack LED and Petal to flashback Unburial Rites on Griselbrand and draw 14 into Tendrils.

In: Surgical, Thoughtseize, Needle, Archmage
Out: Deeds, Decays, Jitte, Jace, Meren, 1 Strix. I want to keep the faster clocks and all his stuff has huge CMCs.

Game 2 I open with Deathrite, and Surgical in hand. He goes for turn one combo after using Unmask on Surgical, but his only fatty is Iona, who names white for the Path in my hand. I untapped and make a Strix, which stonewalls him for a while until I strip his hand and make some more guys. I think eventually he dies to an equipped Strix or something.

Game 3 I get Thoughtseized (taking Surgical) and Thoughtseize back myself, seeing 2 lands, LED, Griselbrand, Unmask, Animate Dead. I take LED, thinking that an Unburial Rites topdeck would kill me through taking Animate Dead since he still has a discard outlet. Actually, he can get me anyway if he topdecks any black card by Unmask-ing himself to ditch Griselbrand, but fortunately he topdecks a nonblack card and I tear his hand apart with Therapy off a Vet, Zenith up a a Deathrite and beat him down.

Round 2 - RUG Delver

Game 1 he opens with a Mongoose, I make a Veteran which walls it off for a while. I make a second Veteran to match his Goyf, but he eventually drops and flips a Delver. I make a Strix, which gets bolted, and Meren, who eats Dismember. I get eaten by Delver.

In: Carpets, Archmage
Out: 3 Therapy - I don't need Therapies to kill Veteran here since my opponent will do so for me.

Game 2 he makes Mongoose to my Veteran, then a Tarmogoyf. I make a Deathrite, which gets Bolted. A second Goyf joins the party. He eventually kills Veteran with a Forked Bolt, and swings with two 3/4 Goyfs and a threshed Mongoose. I Path a Goyf, which he Forces, and I go to 9. I untap and Deed his board away. He makes another Mongoose which I match with Thragtusk, then let them trade and make Meren to rebuy Thratusk and he scoops.

Game 3 he doesn't have a threat early, so I make some Strixes (which get Ancient Grudged) and a Veteran to match the Goyf he gets. Witness rebuys Strix, I make a Batterskull (he stifles the Living Weapon) and I stick the BSK on one of my creatures and run away with the game.

Round 3 - Stoneforge Miracles

Game 1 my opponent fetches an early Batterskull with Stoneforge, and is able to hide it from Therapy with Brainstorm. I decay the Stoneforge and make a Rhino, but my SoFaI gets Counterspelled and Rhino eventually eats Swords as Monastery Mentor beats me to death with double Top.

In: Teeg, RecSage, Archmage, Needles, Carpets, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extraction
Out: Veterans, Therapies, 2 Path, Meren

We trade resources for a while, but I don't have a Needle for his Jace available and he runs me over with card advantage.

Round 4 - RUG Delver

He makes Goyf and some other threats. I make Strixes, Paths and Decays, then Rhino into Thragtusk into Witness into Thragtusk.

In: Archmage, Carpets
Out: 3 Therapy

Deathrite eats removal, but I follow it up with Veteran into Deed and a Strix with a Jitte.

Round 5 - Nahiri Miracles

Game 1 I keep a bad hand and pay for it - I mulliganed to six and saw Phyrexian Tower, Veteran, Therapy, Therapy, Thragtusk, Deed. I have a scry and two draw steps to find a green source and I can make Thragtusk on turn two and start applying pressure. I proceed to draw Plains into nothing until turn four or five, and Nahiri Emrakuls me to death. I should probably have scooped much earlier in this game to have time for a game three.

In: Teeg, Archmage, Needles, Carpets, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extraction
Out: 3 Veterans, Therapies, 2 Path, Meren

G2 He uses Wear/Tear early to kill a Carpet. I get an early Tireless Tracker and make a lot of clues. Jace has to bounce it repeatedly but eventually goes down to 1 and gets beaten to death by a Deathrite - I have Path for his Snapcaster. Tireless Tracker comes back down and draws me more cards, making two clues with a fetch immediately to avoid getting bolted by Keranos. He doesn't find a Swords in time and I kill him with a 5/4 Tracker and a Batterskull token, with Rhino available to finish him off. I keep a Deed in play to avoid and Angel based problems coming up.

Game 3 I make a Stoneforge, a Strix and a Deathrite, then Extract his Terminus copies. He has Swords for the Stoneforge I equip SoFaI to and Jace bounces the Strix, slowing me down enough that I can't kill him before we go to time.

Top4 - Stoneforge Miracles
This match takes ages - I get a reasonable start with a Tracker drawing me a load of cards and a Jitte with a lot of counters. Eventually he hits Terminus for my Tracker + Strixes, which is fine, but my Thrag and Rhino get counterspelled or Sworded and Meren doesn't do much against a Karakas. Eventually he lands Top and Counterbalance and slowly beats me to death with a Batterskull token.

Sideboard same as last time.

This game goes a lot more quickly. He misses a land drop and I try to capitalize by using Needle on his Flooded Strand, but he proceeeds to draw/brainstorm into his mana anyway, making double Stoneforge, a Jace, Jitte, Batterskull. I have Reclamation Sage for Batterskull but for some reason think it costs 5 to bounce, not 3, so it gets away and he has the counterbalance to stop me from Therapy-ing it. I have Deed for the Stoneforges and Jitte, but Keranos bolts me for a while and an EoT Vendilion Clique picks up the Batterskull and finishes me off.


Overall I'm actually pretty happy with the deck. Strixes with equipment are a real threat, and the deck has plenty of lategame while running a much better early game against Delver.

Since the deck has equipment, but no completely impossible to kill threats, I think it wants Thrun in the sideboard for Miracles. Surgical Extraction on Terminus followed by Thrun feels like a good plan a lot of the time, particularly with any of the equipment in the deck. Sigarda does the job too, but can be countered so has a little bit worse of a time, while being harder on the mana. The deck could also use an answer for Keranos and/or Karakas. Unfortunately there isn't any good options to deal with both of those - probably Vindicate, with a couple Celestial Purge in the sideboard?

I'd go with something like this:

2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
9 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman

3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Celestial Purge
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

On another note, I was able to pick up everything for the enchantment build over the weekend except a copy of Living Plane, so hopefully I'll be able to put that together for the next Legacy event near me.

Edit: formatting, remember more of round one.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

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Round 5 - Nahiri Miracles

Game 1 I keep a bad hand and pay for it - I mulliganed to six and saw Phyrexian Tower, Veteran, Therapy, Therapy, Thragtusk, Deed. I have a scry and two draw steps to find a green source and I can make Thragtusk on turn two and start applying pressure....

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New player here, not following how from that hand you got to a T2 Tusk. Could you please explain the trick?

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Originally Posted by jmlima

New player here, not following how from that hand you got to a T2 Tusk. Could you please explain the trick?

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Turn 1 Veteran.
Turn 2 Use Phyrexian Tower to sac Veteran, generate 2 black mana, search for 2 basics, use land played in turn 1, this equals 5 mana for a Swagtusk.


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Originally Posted by TTX

Turn 1 Veteran.
Turn 2 Use Phyrexian Tower to sac Veteran, generate 2 black mana, search for 2 basics, use land played in turn 1, this equals 5 mana for a Swagtusk.


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Yeah, that would work, but how did he achieve T1 Veteran without green sources? (I assume, since he says 'I have a scry and two draw steps to find a green source').

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Originally Posted by jmlima

Yeah, that would work, but how did he achieve T1 Veteran without green sources? (I assume, since he says 'I have a scry and two draw steps to find a green source').

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That was the problem.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

That was the problem.

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AH! He did not do it then, that was the objective, but did not happen...

Gotcha now.

Bingo!

Yeah. If I remember rightly I scried an Island to the bottom, and my draws were Plains, Brainstorm, Witness, Bayou, die to Emrakul.

@ Navsi:

Nice list and a few comments for what is worth:

- You should also try a 1-of Ishkanah. I have recently added that card into one of my BUG build and I find it very powerful as turning on "delirium" is easier when you have access to strixes.
- 3 equips are on the high end. I'm pretty much sure 2 would be perfect. I believe Jitte or Sword would have to go.
- I would play another walker (Garruk Relentless)
- I'm convinced that we should play some number of bouncing effects while playing blue. The incentive is real:
1) Protect one of your permanent
2) Turn on any late drawn Therapy
3) Let you re-use any ETB trigger

Good luck and have fun !

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Yeah. If I remember rightly I scried an Island to the bottom, and my draws were Plains, Brainstorm, Witness, Bayou, die to Emrakul.

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I think I would have mulliganed. It's a great hand if you get the green source but without that it's an auto lose. If you're curious on the math you were 49% to hit a green mana. So the way I see that hand, you're 49% to have a ~65% chance to win the game and 51% to lose the game. So that's 31.85% to win. On a mulligan to 6 (with the new scry rule) it's normally closer to 45% across the field, plus it's been my experience that Nic Fit mulligans really well.


And on that note, a random (possibly bad) thought I had. I've been trying to add more mana sources that impact the board more than just being 1 power. DRS is fantastic for this but beyond that I'm looking for more. Has anyone ever tried Elvish Spirit Guide? It's overcost as a creature but it's also an early green source and we can accept the card disadvantage easily enough. It even enables a T1 vet combo.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

@ Navsi:

Nice list and a few comments for what is worth:

- You should also try a 1-of Ishkanah. I have recently added that card into one of my BUG build and I find it very powerful as turning on "delirium" is easier when you have access to strixes.
- 3 equips are on the high end. I'm pretty much sure 2 would be perfect. I believe Jitte or Sword would have to go.
- I would play another walker (Garruk Relentless)
- I'm convinced that we should play some number of bouncing effects while playing blue. The incentive is real:
1) Protect one of your permanent
2) Turn on any late drawn Therapy
3) Let you re-use any ETB trigger

Good luck and have fun !

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Ishkanah is okay but I don't want to replace Thragtusk (since it's so relevant against both Miracles and aggro strategies) and I don't think I want a second five drop.

I agree with you about equipment - I think I might end up dropping Jitte entirely or moving it to the sideboard.

Garruk seems okay, although since I'm in white I'd be tempted to play Sorin, Lord of Innistrad instead. Kiora is probably too easy to kill. I am very tempted to try out a single copy of new Tamiyo, since she is pretty good with a lot of the cards in the deck. I'm thinking of trying out a manland also, probably a Lumbering Falls or Creeping Tar Pit instead of the second Bayou.

I'm not convinced about bounce effects. The problem is that it isn't really worth a whole card, which means you want something that has other use also. JTMS also already does some of this work, in reusing ETBs and doing dumb things with Therapy. As far as other lategame bounce options go, Silumgar's Command is okay (but costs a lot of mana) and Repeal is okay but is never very impressive (particularly against anything with fatties).

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Originally Posted by Brael

I think I would have mulliganed. It's a great hand if you get the green source but without that it's an auto lose. If you're curious on the math you were 49% to hit a green mana. So the way I see that hand, you're 49% to have a ~65% chance to win the game and 51% to lose the game. So that's 31.85% to win. On a mulligan to 6 (with the new scry rule) it's normally closer to 45% across the field, plus it's been my experience that Nic Fit mulligans really well.


And on that note, a random (possibly bad) thought I had. I've been trying to add more mana sources that impact the board more than just being 1 power. DRS is fantastic for this but beyond that I'm looking for more. Has anyone ever tried Elvish Spirit Guide? It's overcost as a creature but it's also an early green source and we can accept the card disadvantage easily enough. It even enables a T1 vet combo.

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I figured I'd keep it because my opponent was on Miracles and had snap kept a 7, so I was probably going to need an excellent hand to have any good odds, and going to 5 was unlikely to get me anywhere without some serious CA engines.

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Originally Posted by Brael

And on that note, a random (possibly bad) thought I had. I've been trying to add more mana sources that impact the board more than just being 1 power. DRS is fantastic for this but beyond that I'm looking for more. Has anyone ever tried Elvish Spirit Guide? It's overcost as a creature but it's also an early green source and we can accept the card disadvantage easily enough. It even enables a T1 vet combo.

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Beyond Dryad Arbor (zenith 0) and STE there is not really anything that is either impressive or just even more narrow. We could argue over BoP or Heirarch, but The first two options have slightly more interaction with the archetype. Preferably i like 6 à 7 dorks in some configuration. Like you mentioned, DRS is a fantastic card as it also helps fight (graveyard) combo and is solid in the grind.
With ESG you have a slight chance for a magical christmas opening, but the card does nothing beyond T1. Mox Diamond is probably a better card for that. Not that i'd want to play MoxD in NicFit anyway.

On another note, Punishing Fire just become more interesting now that DnT starts gaining more interest. Jund version is really nice vs Miracles. Just have to find that "extra" to battle Eldrazi. The last time i played Eldrazi with PFire NicFit the games where decided by Endbringer being answered. Other then that is is pretty doable. McPulse isn't enough and Toxic Deluge is kind of suicide. Dismember is the choice for most decks, but i find it kind of narrow for NicFit. Perhaps Murderous Cut. Damnation seems kind of drastic. Anyone have a suggetion?

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Anyone have a suggestion

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I do.
I was working on an Abzan evolution build which was spoiled here a few weeks ago. The list made top4 on mtgtop8 which is not enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.
But the fact is that during testing against Drazi we had the upperhand thanks to:
- 4 path
- 2/3 decay
- 2 witness
- and 3 wall of blossoms
All these helped to make games last enough time so you had the mana to deed for 5 or 6 and take the game from there.

You just have to make your deck a little more "tankish".

I have elected a combo finish with yosei + recurring to help closing games. The build is still very raw but it crushes so hard Drazi and any midrange deck that it might be the route to take.

Well, at least I gave you some ideas:
- more tankish (wall of blossoms)
- or more rampish (sakura tribe for example)

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I have elected a combo finish with yosei + recurring to help closing games. The build is still very raw but it crushes so hard Drazi and any midrange deck that it might be the route to take.

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This finish really intrigues me...perhaps because I picked up a signed Recurring Nightmare at GP Columbus and I haven't used it.

Also because the main reason I've dropped playing my SFM Nic Fit is because of how friggin grindy it was. Seemed like every single tournament I would spend a majority of my games going to time. I could control the board well, but it just took forever to get to a finish. Maybe with a simple finish like yours, things would go faster.

Do you use anything else that combos with Recurring Nightmare in particular? I could make some modo league attempts this week if I had something different to try.

Dont hope to win games quick with Yosei, that is not how it works. Still grindy af.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Beyond Dryad Arbor (zenith 0) and STE there is not really anything that is either impressive or just even more narrow. We could argue over BoP or Heirarch, but The first two options have slightly more interaction with the archetype. Preferably i like 6 à 7 dorks in some configuration. Like you mentioned, DRS is a fantastic card as it also helps fight (graveyard) combo and is solid in the grind.
With ESG you have a slight chance for a magical christmas opening, but the card does nothing beyond T1. Mox Diamond is probably a better card for that. Not that i'd want to play MoxD in NicFit anyway.

On another note, Punishing Fire just become more interesting now that DnT starts gaining more interest. Jund version is really nice vs Miracles. Just have to find that "extra" to battle Eldrazi. The last time i played Eldrazi with PFire NicFit the games where decided by Endbringer being answered. Other then that is is pretty doable. McPulse isn't enough and Toxic Deluge is kind of suicide. Dismember is the choice for most decks, but i find it kind of narrow for NicFit. Perhaps Murderous Cut. Damnation seems kind of drastic. Anyone have a suggetion?

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I find the GY builds too slowly for Murderous Cut. Even in a build like mine that's lower curve than average, between the 3 drops and Therapy/GSZ not going to the GY we don't build Delve fast enough.

Have you considered the new white edict? Blessed Alliance that's a card that I think has a lot of potential in general. It's live against almost every deck.

@Bobmans: Ghastly Demise could perhaps be a thing? With just 2 cards in the GY it can already kill half the creatures you'll face. The nonblack thing isn't necessarily a big problem in Legacy.

@ralf, brael. I do need to underline here that where talking Jund in this cass. Alhough your suggestions apply on general aswell.
Jund is holding games against Eldrazi surprisinly well. We do lack Plow's, but in return we gain Liliana. So there is your edict effect anyhow. But looking at Blessed Alliance and Eldrazi, the problem card here is Endbringer and more often then not it is not attacking.
If where talking Ghastly Demise, then that is an interesting option. Making point about MCut and Delve seems reasonable. So my worry is that the same can apply to Demise lacking cards to target Endbringer (and missing on Gurmag Angler). So Dismember still on the radar. All worth a try, but hoping to find a more-for-one out there to really be able to turn that game around (next to Deed).

Another option could be splash white for PtE/StP? I mean, those're good enough to make me want to keep playing Abzan. On the other hand - I don't think the P. Fire Jund manabase can pull that off, so there goes that plan.

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Originally Posted by square_two

This finish really intrigues me...perhaps because I picked up a signed Recurring Nightmare at GP Columbus and I haven't used it.

Also because the main reason I've dropped playing my SFM Nic Fit is because of how friggin grindy it was. Seemed like every single tournament I would spend a majority of my games going to time. I could control the board well, but it just took forever to get to a finish. Maybe with a simple finish like yours, things would go faster.

Do you use anything else that combos with Recurring Nightmare in particular? I could make some modo league attempts this week if I had something different to try.

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http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13219&d=277499&f=LE

So here is the list.

Tao is right, games are still grindy as fuck, unfortunately.
BUT, a Yosei + Recurring lock usually ends up with your opponent conceding on the spot or a turn later.

In that list, after more tests the following cards can be replaced:
- Birthing Pod
- Baloth
- Archon
- STP

Obviously, Horizon Canopy can be another savannah (even more with the below changes).

Here are the main changes we made to improve the clock:
- 2 Baloth -> 2 Rhino
- 1 Archon ->1 Sigarda
- 4 STP -> 4 Path

We are still testing a few cards to take Pod's slot:


-1 Pod -1 DRS => +1 Wall +1 Assault Formation

Assault is a really interesting card so far. It turns your walls into some freakin' beaters and it is a good mana sink. The problem is that it does not impact the board on its own.


-1 Pod => +1 Garruk Relentless

Garruk is also very nice. Tokens and/or a quick ultimate at some point can take over a game pretty quickly.


-1 Pod => +1 Anguished Unmaking/Vindicate or +1 Archon

Having the ability to destroy/exile something, with some recurring tools, makes up for some easy wins.


Finally the sideboard has been adjusted:
-2 HTT
-1 Wheel of Sun
+1 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical extraction

Well that's where we are.

We aren't breaking the format, but this list is really enjoyable to play with *big time*.

Hope I gave you some ideas !

How are the evolutions? I notice you didn't want more or less than 2 in your update. Does it make the deck work but you don't want to see it that often, or is still probationary in your mind?