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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
On Lavamancer, I like that it is tutorable and a human. You have some fetches, so the yard will be a little more filled, but I think I like sharpshooter for a little earlier or something of the like for creatures. I was searching for something aggro to replace the legend, and I found things like Boros Reckoner and Skynight Legionnaire, which could be slightly useful in certain contexts. At the same time, I looked into Goblin Rabblemaster and love to token idea, but then I just figured Brimaz would be easier and better for the aggro and defense with a big butt. I like the idea of a light splash of red for Magus, but it I always wanted to splash for a very aggressive creature. havent found it yet.. Maybe goyf one day in green..
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mykatdied
...and I likely would not want to use a Mother of Runes just to spend a Swords to Plowshares for the Heroic trigger.
Yeah, the tactic wouldn't be a staple of the deck. Like Lavamancer activations, it would be used to do finishing. Just as you mention a situation like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mykatdied
... the pump and trample could be relevant. It means a Batterskull could crash through a TNN and still get 4 damage through in a racing situation.
The whole idea of Anax and Cymede was a tutorable Serra Avenger-sized creature that can be used two ways. It being Legendary also makes Karakas more live (and makes it more resilient to removal).
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristin183
On Lavamancer, I like that it is tutorable and a human. You have some fetches, so the yard will be a little more filled, but I think I like sharpshooter for a little earlier or something of the like for creatures.
The difficulty with trying to use an off-color card in an aggressive way is that it's hard to enable. Especially a card like Goblin Sharpshooter--because it's 3 mana. (Goblin Sharpshooter--hell, even Fireslinger and Cunning Sparkmage--are all great cards that have the problem of being relatively low-impact because it's only 1 damage).
My thought with the red splash was that the white creatures that are the backbone of the deck (Thalia GoT, Flickerwisp, and Stoneforge-into-equipment), are all capable of being aggressive already. It's the ability to break parity in a grind (cf. the Donelson interview, and Medea_'s thoughts earlier in thread) that we'd want cards like Lavamancer and A&C.
Maybe someday the green splash will take off. I love Knight of the Reliquary.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mykatdied
Anax and Cymede would really be best if you ran cards like Blessed Alliance, God's Willing or things like that. Doing things like that would likely water down the deck and I likely would not want to use a Mother of Runes just to spend a Swords to Plowshares for the Heroic trigger. Not sure if it is a great idea but definitely deserves testing since the pump and trample could be relevant. It means a Batterskull could crash through a TNN and still get 4 damage through in a racing situation.
Wouldn't it also be easier to just give the creature pro-color with mom so you bypass blockers entirely?
With the TNN example, I would just provide pro-blue and be done with things.
@Red: Aside from SB cards, I've always thought you'd want Magis of the Moon/Blood Moon and Eidolon (which is RR but a nasty effect). Eidolon walks that line of control/oppressive and aggro because you will likely be using vial. Opponents will be taking damage 90% of the time.
Lavamancer isn't a terrible idea either, but fueling the GY is a thing. Lavamancer also only pulls from your yard. The "better" lavamancer is DRS, who could do a lot of things for the deck overall. But then we're looking at Green and Taxes or Deadguy type lists. DRS conditionally bolts, gains life, and provides some much needed ramp.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I can see lavamancer as sideboard tech against creature decks where thalia is possible to come out in some numbers in favor of more spells. That way you're likely to fuel lavamancer a bit better and it helps take control over the board.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Grim Lavamancer is a powerful card, in particular vs a lot of the things DnT is soft to. It's not inconceivable that there is a strong Thalia/Grim Lavamancer list out there to be discovered. But that list isn't going to play Port, and it probably is base red not splash red.
For Grim Lavamancer to be good against fast decks you need the following:
- R on t1 and t2.
- 2 cards in your graveyard on t2. This is harder when you're playing a creature-based deck and not a spell-based deck, so you need a *lot* of fetches.
Anax and Cymede is not a very good card. Heroic is not an ability meant to be played in older formats, it basically reads 'Please two-for-one me.' There aren't many pushed RW creatures in the game at the moment, unfortunately.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
Lavamancer isn't a terrible idea either, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mykatdied
I can see lavamancer as sideboard tech ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Grim Lavamancer is a powerful card, in particular vs a lot...
These are all valid points for/against Grim Lavamancer. However, Grim Lavamancer and, to an extent, Anax and Cymede, are offshoots of the real design decision of red for Magus of the Moon.
Does having a (tutorable) Blood Moon effect justify a color splash, and can the color provide more value?
Lavamancer was just very convenient to slot in the deck that follows its philosophy (i.e. an atypical finisher); it's problem is that its biggest value is very narrow. Anax and Cymede, admittedly, is a reach--however, its function was to overlap a two-way component of the monowhite lists (i.e. Serra Avenger).
I've looked through other pools and goldfished against a few matchups, and it looks like the red splash is still a little slow--especially if there's only room for a single Magus of the Moon. (When playing red, I've always thought that fewer was better, though: having one on board and then drawing into another felt awful).
Just the way the Meta is currently, it just feels like a Blood Moon lockout is as strong as it's ever been.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi all,
I have posted here my thoughts one month ago. Then, I have tested the deck a lot of times with different builds. To tell the truth, I am upset the deck is not as strong as I wished with the three new cards (THC, Recruiter, Sanctum prelate). I first thought these cards could bring about a real revolution for D&T. Well, it's not. I tried many builds, alone, with friends, in local tournaments and I am not pretty sure our new tools have to be played too much.
First of all, I was thinking about playing chrome mow in 2. I was wrong, that was a bad idea. It's just impossible to play chrome mox with aether vial and the deck can't support discard advantage even if we play 4 recruiter and 4 SFM.
Then I played some list with 3/4 recruiter and/or 2/3 sanctum prelate main deck. I also tried Thalia Heretic cathar in 3 main deck or SB. I was disapointed. I got bad results on local tournaments : elves still destroy us, the deck is slower : it's more difficult now against aggro deck like Goblins, Drazi, burn or affi. Indeed the list is more consistant against midrange and card advantage's decks like Shardless. But it's not enough. I had a lot of game with a lot of 1/1 creatures ont the board and do nothing. Plus, the deck is really slower than it was.
I was really sad : I had the feeling that I tried everything but the new death and tax did not bring me good results.
So, two days ago, I stopped. I took some time and asked myself : why D&T is a good deck ? Why did it become a Tiers1/1.5 ? How ? What are these strengths ?
Very basics questions, I know. We all know the answers. Well, it's good to remember.
DEATH AND TAXES. Meaning we lock the opponent and kill him.
To kill, we have flying creatures, and/or equipments. Plus, we have tricky creatures like mother of runes. /// To tax, we have lands and specifics creatures.
It means we have to play both.
So, the core of the deck is : Mum-Serra avenger-Flicker-SFM-3 equipments-Thalia thraben-Wasteland-Rishadan port. 4 Stp of course.
We have :
4 mother of runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flicker
4 SFM
4 Thalia
3 Equipment
4 STP
The news conspiracy creatures are good but we have to keep a good curve. They all cost three. This is a problem. Since a long time, we often play nothing turn one. Cause if we don' have mum or vial in hand, we have not a turn one. In fact, this is terrible. Because this is legacy, because we have to put the pressure before the opponent does. We have to control the board. Have a turn one in not an option with death and tax. We need another drop one and find a room for it. I tried Judge’s familiar and find him pretty huge. He is amazing agains Shardless, miracle, Delver, ANT, Storm, Show and tell, dredge good against burn and good against Elves (Could avoid turn one Green Zenith with dyrad arbor and make us gain a turn to slow the NO and the glimpse). He seems not good against Drazi and mirror match up but he stays a 1/1 flying which is great, especially with the equipments cards. Great card, and perfect with Thalia.
We have all we need to keep the pressure fast and kill the opponent : Mom, Judge, avenger, Flicker, SFM, equipment.
Now, we need to lock. Here are the cards who do that : Both Thalia, Vryn wingmare, Sanctum prelate. Thraben is an auto inculde. Heretic Cathar can’t be played in singleton with recruiter because it’s too slow. With Recruiter, the card is on the board turn 4 or turn 5 with vial. Too late. If we play 3 or 4 it’s too difficult. It makes 4 more 3CC. Moreover, the card is good against deck we already beat. I really like Vryn wingmare for a simple reason : he locks AND he kills (flying man !)
Sanctum prelate is a huge card. I played 3. But we can’t play him and play Vryn. We have to choose. With Thalie/Judge’s familiar plan, I prefer Vryn and sideboard Sanctum prelate against miracle/delver/ANT. Sanctum is not good against creature deck and there are a lot : mirror, Drazi, Elves.
Reruiter of the guard has to be played, just because it’s a card advantage the deck need. I played 3, it’s too much because get 2 in the opening hand is bad. 2 sounds great. I play just one Mangarra with him (I don’t play priest and leonin : just 1 mangarra to gain 1 shot)
Finally, I choose mirran cruisader because of the meta.
It makes
Death and taxes
Land : 23
11 plain
1 canopy horizon
4 wasteland
4 Rishadan
3 Karakas
Creatures : 27
4 mother of runes
2 Judge’s familiar
2/3 Serra Avenger
4 SFM
4 Thalia Thraben
1 / 2 Mirran
3 Flicker
3 Vryn wingmare
1 Mangara
2 Recruiter of the guard
Others : 10
4 Aether vial
4 STP
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
Side Board :
2 Burrenton Forge-tender VS Burn/Delver/Goblins
4 Ethersworn canonist VS Elves/ANT/Storm
1 Mirran cruisader VS Shardless BUG/Jund (Drazi ?)
3 Sanctum prelate VS Mirace/Delver/Burn
1 Unmezzawa Jitte VS Death and taxes/Elves/Drazi
2 Rest in peace VS Reanimator/Jund/Shardless Bug/Dredge
1 Path to exile VS Drazi
1 Oblivion ring VS Miracle/Shadless/Drazi (Jund?)
Curve : 14 CCM1 / 12 CCM 2 / 10 CCM 1 which is great !
. I play just 2 equipment to gain room. I don’t know if I play 2 mirran and 2 avenger or 3 avenger and 1 mirran. I am so sad to play just 3 flicker. Maybe find a room fir the fourth. I’d like to play 2 jitte maindeck, it’s a lot of pressure. I don’t play Sofi, it’s useless, I never stoneforge it, I always stoneforge Jitte or batterskull.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Since we got Recruiter and Prelate I feel like I've gotten very mixed feelings each night I play; some of the newer cards either underperform for me or blow me out of the water with how good they are. This past Wednesday was one of those nights my deck was pretty disappointing.
THC is amazing on turn 3 or 4 but generally sucks after that. I don't feel keeping her as a one-of tutor target is worthwhile, but running 3 or 4 could be reasonable.
Recruiter is okay late game when you have a bit of mana to cast your tutor target, or early game when you have an active vial, but is mediocre at least 50% of the time (especially when you have one or two in your opening hand!). I lost some games on Wednesday night when I recruitered for what I needed (like a Prelate) and was dead before I was able to cast my tutor target next turn. In times like that I almost wish I just ran more of the threats themselves.
Prelate has rarely disappointed, and even then (like in creature matches) it's typically good enough to shut down something like Abrupt Decay for a few turns to protect itself. Figuring out what number to name, especially against fringe decks, is the hardest part. I'm already running two main and I'm considering a third in the sideboard.
Ethersworn Canonist was my most sideboarded-in card on Wednesday and it was always great. I'm considering running one main in addition to the two sideboard. Only 2CMC, survives Golgari Charm and Sulfur Elemental, human for Cavern. Helps in quite a few matchups.
I tried running two Serra Avengers again as well, although I never got to swing with her. I was always happy to see her in my hand, though.
EDIT: Clarified THC comments regarding single copy as target.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
There are two top 8 lists! One with Mangara, which seems alright for the grindy matches, but overall, it looks slow and there is 11 3-drop creatures.. I have cut down to around 10. 3 wisp, 3 recruiter, 1 crusader,, 1 THC, 1 prelate, and 1 banisher priest (this may become crusader #2 or prelate #2, which is in the side)
Soetimes I want another THC game 1, but I have it in the side, so game 2 I bring it in against Jund, Miracles, Elves, and similar things.
I have thought about another canonist in the main, and it while it is a stellar 2-drop, I don't have enough decks in my meta to warrant it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
It's not inconceivable that there is a strong Thalia/Grim Lavamancer list out there to be discovered.
These two cards can not go in the same deck unless we get some kind of disposable creatures or something. As it stands right now, Grim Lavamancer can not possibly work. Somebody quoted me saying this before. It is still true. He wants it as a late game guy to recruit, why would you have Lavamancer over Pia/Kiran then? Somebody is going to naysay this, I imagine...probably someone whose name rhymes with "Pie Ate Tee". You are all welcome to do what you like, of course. It will only take a few games to see how silly it is to try to fit these creatures together. I hope you do so that we can move past this one.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I tried Lavamancer in my Imperial build, it didn't stay for long, I liked it when I had it as I could use it 2 maybe 3 times, but A lot of the time I would have preferred something else, Lavamancer is great, but it needs red mana to work, and it's also unlikely to be able to shock more than twice.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristin183
One with Mangara, which seems alright for the grindy matches, but overall, it looks slow
Can someone please explain to me where this "Mangara is slow" meme came from? It's the most oft repeated thing I hear about Mangara and DnT. Last I checked, DnT was not blazingly fast nor just an aggro white weenie deck.
Not meaning to single you out Tristin, but I really do not understand this.
Also @Finn - Iatee was one of the first to try out Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he needs convincing about how good the card is.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Can someone please explain to me where this "Mangara is slow" meme came from? It's the most oft repeated thing I hear about Mangara and DnT. Last I checked, DnT was not blazingly fast nor just an aggro white weenie deck.
Not meaning to single you out Tristin, but I really do not understand this.
No Worries. I just find it slow with the aggressive decks of late. I would really like it for Miracles and for the long matches, and I may put it back in soon here. But with Delver, storm, punishing fire decks, and eldrazi, I don't know if it is good enough. Another concern is that it is another 3-drop. I don't personally want to go over 10 in the deck.
The pros of tutoring are that we hopefully not draw it and keep it shuffled in the deck. I suppose if we are tutoring multiple times, then Mangara might be a fine tutor target.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristin183
No Worries. I just find it slow with the aggressive decks of late. I would really like it for Miracles and for the long matches, and I may put it back in soon here. But with Delver, storm, punishing fire decks, and eldrazi, I don't know if it is good enough. Another concern is that it is another 3-drop. I don't personally want to go over 10 in the deck.
The pros of tutoring are that we hopefully not draw it and keep it shuffled in the deck. I suppose if we are tutoring multiple times, then Mangara might be a fine tutor target.
Just chiming in to say that Mangara is actually pretty good against Eldrazi. A bit slow, sure, but very powerful if you get to untap with it, even without Karakas. Blocking one attacking monster and exiling another before damage will usually win the game. As for punishing fire, it doesn't seem to be that prevalent in the meta anymore, and not as much of a nightmare now that we have Prelate.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
to the people who run 1 THC in the main deck. i dont think it is a good idea. TCH isnt a card you just want 1-of in the deck. its either an engine of the deck or not played at all. its one of those cards that are much much better if drawn naturally. recruiting it is too late to matter in legacy and as a 1-of you dont get it when you need it. i dont see what you are getting from running one. that doesnt work. generally, the cards you are recruiting the most are reactive cards(revoker, mangara, banisher priest etc.) or cards with huge comeback potential (sfm, flickerwisp, mirran crusader etc.). THC is a pro active card and you want to draw it naturally if you go that route. in my book running just a single copy doesnt make any sense at all. either play 3-4(even though 4 might be cloggy) or none at all.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FeX
to the people who run 1 THC in the main deck. i dont think it is a good idea. TCH isnt a card you just want 1-of in the deck. its either an engine of the deck or not played at all. its one of those cards that are much much better if drawn naturally. recruiting it is too late to matter in legacy and as a 1-of you dont get it when you need it. i dont see what you are getting from running one. that doesnt work. generally, the cards you are recruiting the most are reactive cards(revoker, mangara, banisher priest etc.) or cards with huge comeback potential (sfm, flickerwisp, mirran crusader etc.). THC is a pro active card and you want to draw it naturally if you go that route. in my book running just a single copy doesnt make any sense at all. either play 3-4(even though 4 might be cloggy) or none at all.
While I understand your logic, I argued in favor of THC as a tutor target a few pages ago, especially in the miracles matchup. Also, drawing it naturally doesn't happen as rarely as one would assume on paper (as anyone who has played batterskull knows all too well).
While it is true that it is a card that is ideally cast early, I've seen people constantly underestimate its value as a mid-late game topdeck or tutor target. That card is an obvious 3-4 of in stompy DnT/Eldrazi Hybrids and perhaps even G/W decks playing acceleration, but the new lists with Prelate and Recruiter really can't afford to play that many copies. That doesn't mean that she's not worth a spot in your 75.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
While I understand your logic, I argued in favor of THC as a tutor target a few pages ago, especially in the miracles matchup. Also, drawing it naturally doesn't happen as rarely as one would assume on paper (as anyone who has played batterskull knows all too well).
While it is true that it is a card that is ideally cast early, I've seen people constantly underestimate its value as a mid-late game topdeck or tutor target. That card is an obvious 3-4 of in stompy DnT/Eldrazi Hybrids and perhaps even G/W decks playing acceleration, but the new lists with Prelate and Recruiter really can't afford to play that many copies. That doesn't mean that she's not worth a spot in your 75.
THC's power is directly related to the turn she comes down. On turn 3, she's usually mildly disruptive outside of a port/vial draw. Since she came out I was pretty suspicious of her, so after about 60 matches with her as a 2 of I started taking a note on every game I drew her, and what her effect on the game was.
In the 25ish games I have notes on, I tutored her up exactly once. I had a double vial port/wasteland draw, and they were stuck on 2 lands, and a slightly disruptive beater was exactly what I needed. In most cases, I would rather tutor for either a stronger beater or stronger disruption. The corner cases where you want a little bit of both have been few far between.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
wouldn't you rather tutor Wingmare there? it also flies. Great with any equipment
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fry
I tried Lavamancer in my Imperial build, it didn't stay for long, I liked it when I had it as I could use it 2 maybe 3 times, but A lot of the time I would have preferred something else, Lavamancer is great, but it needs red mana to work, and it's also unlikely to be able to shock more than twice.
I spent some time considering Lavamancer, but always ended up coming back to Fireslinger. It's also a human, the damage to you is minor, and it doesn't have any upkeep cost in regards to using its ability.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
These two cards can not go in the same deck unless we get some kind of disposable creatures or something. As it stands right now, Grim Lavamancer can not possibly work. Somebody quoted me saying this before. It is still true. He wants it as a late game guy to recruit, why would you have Lavamancer over Pia/Kiran then? Somebody is going to naysay this, I imagine...probably someone whose name rhymes with "Pie Ate Tee". You are all welcome to do what you like, of course. It will only take a few games to see how silly it is to try to fit these creatures together. I hope you do so that we can move past this one.
Tellin' ya. DRS. He's the better lavamancer who also plugs holes for DNT with accelerating early, sustaining through the race, and finishing off in the end. Only "downside" to him is that he's not red -- so you can't live the dream of DRS and Moon in a DnT list.
@Finn's original point: Yeah, if Lavamancer or [insert red card]'s effects are being used to finish (we can generalize their ideal appearance in the game as "not in the opening 9 cards of the game"), P&K would likely be strictly better. But by the same token, are the effects of a splash worth it? Are your matchups "better" because you have some turn 3/4/5 splash-color bomb vs the usual T3/4/5 play as mono-white?
Edit: This is the inspiration I keep coming back to for a splash DnT. http://www.mtgdecks.net/deck/liga_de...viciano/88421/
I'd probably run 3-4x DRS alongside the core of DnT. Viciano had the wayfarer/safekeeper/wasteland/KotR/canopy synergies. Part of me says the current rotation of DnT cards is even better than that.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
Tellin' ya. DRS. He's the better lavamancer who also plugs holes for DNT with accelerating early, sustaining through the race, and finishing off in the end. Only "downside" to him is that he's not red -- so you can't live the dream of DRS and Moon in a DnT list.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Edit: This is the inspiration I keep coming back to for a splash DnT.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/deck/liga_de...viciano/88421/
I'd probably run 3-4x DRS alongside the core of DnT. Viciano had the wayfarer/safekeeper/wasteland/KotR/canopy synergies. Part of me says the current rotation of DnT cards is even better than that.
I was thinking of DRS, but would you have the 3 color manabase? that seems really difficult to manage with more white at the core. I am thinking that the green ability could be really nice to sustain game and grab the winning piece, but black just seems like a game-changer on its own. Beyond that, some other pieces could cute, but outside of quasali, and KotR, I don't really see the need with our new cards. would you run 2 or 3 savannah for 3 DRS?
EDIT:
I could see having the 1 Scrubland and even using Orzhov Pontiff, which could be too fun!
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
There have been many attempts to make D+T work in three colors. The perversion to the lands is still too much. You always lose out on mana denial to do it, and you are left with an unstable manabase in the end. The upside is just not strong enough to justify this.
I have relegated Mirran Crusader to the sb for now. Swapped him out for THC #3. I seem to be drawing him at inopportune times. Now that I said that I am going to be looking duplicate legends every game. Just watch.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@Finn
Gaier Reach Sanitarium alongside a miser's SotL is always an option if that is a problem.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Medea_
very interesting read. I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of us have perhaps underestimated THC with all the hype generated by the new cards. Cheat-splashes requiring 4 Cavern of souls aside, I think that 3 Recruiter/2 Prelate/2 THC is going to be the most common split...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tristin183
I was thinking of DRS, but would you have the 3 color manabase? that seems really difficult to manage with more white at the core. I am thinking that the green ability could be really nice to sustain game and grab the winning piece, but black just seems like a game-changer on its own. Beyond that, some other pieces could cute, but outside of quasali, and KotR, I don't really see the need with our new cards. would you run 2 or 3 savannah for 3 DRS?
EDIT:
I could see having the 1 Scrubland and even using Orzhov Pontiff, which could be too fun!
This is also what I'm needing to figure out tbh.
3 Karakas
3 Plains
4 Splash (GW = 4 duals or 3 dual/1 canopy)
3 Port
4 Waste
6 fetch
The second color means you need to reduce [colorless] production from your lands. I opt to go with 6 fetches to find 7 white-producing lands (duals/basics). 3 Karakas round me out to 10 "I make the mana" lands vs 7 "lockdown" lands a la port/waste.
Tri-color increases the strain on the manabase and I cannot help but think you scrap the ports entirely to bump up to 8 fetch/6 dual/1 utility land. I'm also wondering if a city of brass type land makes sense if someone really really wanted to push 3 colors (not that this is a good idea). The damage you take (city, confluence) and/or the land fizzling away (gemstone) has me thinking this is the wrong approach. Deathrite/Nobles impacting the number of lands you need is also important.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm trying to craft a list where we can fit the 2nd THC and I'm having trouble. I have an idea, but it may be too radical.
We've already cut one each of: Phyrexian Revoker, Mother of Runes, and Stoneforge Mystic (now at 3 each).
I'm loathe to cut any Flickerwisp (currently at 4) - the card is so good.
That leaves possible cuts to: Mother of Runes (down to 2), Phyrexian Revoker (down to 2), the Banisher Priest/Mirran Crusader flex slot (down to 0) or...
WHAT IF we cut a Stoneforge Mystic (down to 2)? This idea is from Maverick, who has been playing just 2x Stoneforge Mystic for a long time. Thoughts? Is this too wild? Is it sacrilegious? Would love input. If you're against this idea - why has Maverick settled on 2x Stoneforge Mystic yet we want the full four (or three)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
very interesting read. I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of us have perhaps underestimated THC with all the hype generated by the new cards. Cheat-splashes requiring 4 Cavern of souls aside, I think that 3 Recruiter/2 Prelate/2 THC is going to be the most common split...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
SfM is DnT's card to break fair creature mirrors. It doesn't have a lot of them.
Maverick has more - KotR is also a fair creature mirror breaker, and GSZ means you're playing 8 copies.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
very interesting read. I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of us have perhaps underestimated THC with all the hype generated by the new cards. Cheat-splashes requiring 4 Cavern of souls aside, I think that 3 Recruiter/2 Prelate/2 THC is going to be the most common split...
If it is true that THC is that good (and it may well be) if we want a deck that can maximize her potential, I think we shouldn't be looking at Death and Taxes, but rather decks that can accelerate her out. In those decks a slightly higher curve is more sustainable anyway, because of the extra mana. So, Maverick with Noble Hierarch, Junk with Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps even Deadguy with Chrome Mox seem like better places to try to maximize the effect of THC.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
korstructure
WHAT IF we cut a Stoneforge Mystic (down to 2)? This idea is from Maverick, who has been playing just 2x Stoneforge Mystic for a long time. Thoughts? Is this too wild? Is it sacrilegious? Would love input. If you're against this idea - why has Maverick settled on 2x Stoneforge Mystic yet we want the full four (or three)?
I've tried 2 SFM with my Imperial Recruiter (I played the full set of Recruiters) build and thought it was pretty decent, but you do notice the hurt a little against a creature heavy decks because naturally drawing the SFM is super nice instead of needing to sometimes recruit it, I think that if the meta is creature light that 2 SFM is alright, but if there's expected creatures in the meta, I'd suggest keeping it at a 3 SFM count.
Boils to creature meta(D&T, Maverick, Elves, Eldrazi, etc.), keep 3 SFM, not too heavy on the creatures (Storm, Lands, RUG Delver, MUD, etc.), 2 SFM seems to be alright with recruiters, at least when I played the 4 Recruiters.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
If it is true that THC is that good (and it may well be) if we want a deck that can maximize her potential, I think we shouldn't be looking at Death and Taxes, but rather decks that can accelerate her out. In those decks a slightly higher curve is more sustainable anyway, because of the extra mana. So, Maverick with Noble Hierarch, Junk with Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps even Deadguy with Chrome Mox seem like better places to try to maximize the effect of THC.
If that is simply an observation about THC's potential in legacy, then I would probably agree (although it is hardly a new one). But if it is an argument against playing it in DnT, then it is absolutely flawed. By that logic, Brainstorm should only be played in Miracles, cause that deck maximizes it more than any other. Obviously, that isn't the case, cause Brainstorm is still a stellar card even if you aren't using it to set up miracles. Yes, another shell might be able to squeeze more value out of THC, but DnT can still benefit plenty from it. And I'm pretty sure that DnT is an overall better deck than most builds attempting to go all-in on it...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
If that is simply an observation about THC's potential in legacy, then I would probably agree (although it is hardly a new one). But if it is an argument against playing it in DnT, then it is absolutely flawed. By that logic, Brainstorm should only be played in Miracles, cause that deck maximizes it more than any other. Obviously, that isn't the case, cause Brainstorm is still a stellar card even if you aren't using it to set up miracles. Yes, another shell might be able to squeeze more value out of THC, but DnT can still benefit plenty from it. And I'm pretty sure that DnT is an overall better deck than most builds attempting to go all-in on it...
Thank you.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
If that is simply an observation about THC's potential in legacy, then I would probably agree (although it is hardly a new one). But if it is an argument against playing it in DnT, then it is absolutely flawed. By that logic, Brainstorm should only be played in Miracles, cause that deck maximizes it more than any other. Obviously, that isn't the case, cause Brainstorm is still a stellar card even if you aren't using it to set up miracles. Yes, another shell might be able to squeeze more value out of THC, but DnT can still benefit plenty from it. And I'm pretty sure that DnT is an overall better deck than most builds attempting to go all-in on it...
Yeah, that isn't what I am saying at all.
My point was simply that this deck might not be the best one to use THC to her maximum effect, because her effect is stronger the earlier you can play her. This doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all, my observation was simply a caution to the idea of running too many and ruining the curve, or cutting other important utility creatures chasing her effect. In those other decks there are ways to mitigate the effect of multiple copies like Brainstorm or Liliana.
I apologize for pointing out the obvious to you. I assure you, it is not a mistake I will make again.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
H
Yeah, that isn't what I am saying at all.
My point was simply that this deck might not be the best one to use THC to her maximum effect, because her effect is stronger the earlier you can play her. This doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all, my observation was simply a caution to the idea of running too many and ruining the curve, or cutting other important utility creatures chasing her effect. In those other decks there are ways to mitigate the effect of multiple copies like Brainstorm or Liliana.
I apologize for pointing out the obvious to you. I assure you, it is not a mistake I will make again.
I'm pretty sure Luca understand what you were saying, but perhaps you did not grasp their point. As Luca said, the fact that we don't squeeze as much out of THC as others is insufficient reason to not run her. Luca is not even advocating a full playset, merely justifying that we continue to run some. There's no need to be this hostile.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
parsimonious
I'm pretty sure Luca understand what you were saying, but perhaps you did not grasp their point. As Luca said, the fact that we don't squeeze as much out of THC as others is insufficient reason to not run her. Luca is not even advocating a full playset, merely justifying that we continue to run some. There's no need to be this hostile.
I grasped thier point perfectly well, but unfortunately it is a refutation of something I never said. You also refute something I never said, so while you imagine you are clarifying thier point, you are just repeating thier misrepresentation of my point.
You are right, there was no need to write such a hostile response, to misrepresentat what I said to be akin to saying Brainstorm should only be run in Miracles or some such. I already said I regretted having even bothering to make the point that I did, since it seems that it cannot be read without being grossly misunderstood. That's my fault and why it was obviously a mistake to even point out.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I apologize for pointing out the obvious to you. I assure you, it is not a mistake I will make again.
It would probably help if the obvious hadn't been pointed out already by pretty much every person commenting on THC itt, especially when it has zero relevance on whether we should be running it in DnT. Considering that this IS indeed a thread about Death and Taxes, and not Maverick or Junk or white Eldrazi, I think my clarification was perfectly warranted, least some mistakenly equate the ad nauseam repetition of "THC belongs in a deck which can power her out on turn 2" with "it should not be played in DnT". My (somewhat exasperated, but definitely not hostile) post was directed at this general ambiguity in the discourse, not at you in particular, and I explicitly gave your post the benefit of the doubt. Alas, people will take it as they will...
Squabbles aside, I am not even completely sure that DnT isn't the best THC deck: even though we should not run 4 and she won't come down before turn 3, we still have the best mana-denial package to complement its effect, and we play the highest number of Karakas + Vial to make it a veritable lategame pain in the ass...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
If it is true that THC is that good (and it may well be) if we want a deck that can maximize her potential, I think we shouldn't be looking at Death and Taxes, but rather decks that can accelerate her out. In those decks a slightly higher curve is more sustainable anyway, because of the extra mana. So, Maverick with Noble Hierarch, Junk with Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps even Deadguy with Chrome Mox seem like better places to try to maximize the effect of THC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
If that is simply an observation about THC's potential in legacy, then I would probably agree (although it is hardly a new one). But if it is an argument against playing it in DnT, then it is absolutely flawed. By that logic, Brainstorm should only be played in Miracles, cause that deck maximizes it more than any other. Obviously, that isn't the case, cause Brainstorm is still a stellar card even if you aren't using it to set up miracles. Yes, another shell might be able to squeeze more value out of THC, but DnT can still benefit plenty from it. And I'm pretty sure that DnT is an overall better deck than most builds attempting to go all-in on it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
It would probably help if the obvious hadn't been pointed out already by pretty much every person commenting on THC itt, especially when it has zero relevance on whether we should be running it in DnT. Considering that this IS indeed a thread about Death and Taxes, and not Maverick or Junk or white Eldrazi, I think my clarification was perfectly warranted, least some mistakenly equate the ad nauseam repetition of "THC belongs in a deck which can power her out on turn 2" with "it should not be played in DnT". My (somewhat exasperated, but definitely not hostile) post was directed at this general ambiguity in the discourse, not at you in particular, and I explicitly gave your post the benefit of the doubt. Alas, people will take it as they will...
Squabbles aside, I am not even completely sure that DnT isn't the best THC deck: even though we should not run 4 and she won't come down before turn 3, we still have the best mana-denial package to complement its effect, and we play the highest number of Karakas + Vial to make it a veritable lategame pain in the ass...
@THC: It is pretty clear, that the new Thalia isn't a core choice (compared to SfM, Thalia 1.0, Mother etc.) for DnT. This deck is way to slow to use her full potential, she will only shine if you got a nice grip of manadenial working (which includes a Vial T1) and detain your opponent enough. If you face other common situations, where she simply is another Beater for T3-4 or lategame than she is not as good and maybe only a 3/2 First Striker that you can protect with Karakas which is worse if your opponent also have Karakas or 3/2 isnt enough if a gofy already hit the field etc.
THC is really strong if you can play her as early as possible: Which needs a) mana cheating and b) full playset and c) she isn't good enough if you are behind on the field. Conclusion all options lead away from DnT. As some mentioned, you will never tutor for her with Recruiter and having only 2 copies will result into a lot of situations that can be good with her but you don't draw her. DnT also have a lot of other usefull cc3 creatures and can also reduce the numbers and play more proven cc2 stuff like Serra Avenger.
THC will be much better in any stompy shell that can power her out T1-2 including much better protection with Playset of Cavern. Decks for her: Eldrazi & Taxes or Soldier Stompy - but both decks aren't respected in the same way as DnT, but in the past DnT was also not widley played and profit a lot from the strong GP Strassbourg performance and the ongoing support of Wizards with new cards. It is more or less the same with Deathrite Shaman, this guy is played in any BGx shell since he is very strong but his true power is reserved for Elves Combo thanks to all the tribal synergy.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think Luca is probably right. While D+T is not the best way to maximize THC, it probably is the best deck to use her in. That is, while you can power her out earlier, the changes to the deck required are a net loss to the deck. And she is certainly effective as is. I have gone back to three.
Also, going down to 2 mother of runes is a terrible idea.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
MD.Ghost
@THC: It is pretty clear, that the new Thalia isn't a core choice (compared to SfM, Thalia 1.0, Mother etc.) for DnT.
Unless by "core choice" you mean "automatic 4-of (which, at this point, only really applies to TGT), that's not pretty clear at all. The 2 best placing DnT lists in the previous weeks (Aubert Arnaud at BoM Paris and Marco Montani at Ovino XI) both played THC, one as a two-of, and the other as a 1-of (but he has since said he would raise the number to 2). If anything, the evidence we have so far seems to suggest that some number of THCs will become a staple in most successful DnT lists.
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This deck is way to slow to use her full potential, she will only shine if you got a nice grip of manadenial working (which includes a Vial T1) and detain your opponent enough. If you face other common situations, where she simply is another Beater for T3-4 or lategame than she is not as good and maybe only a 3/2 First Striker that you can protect with Karakas which is worse if your opponent also have Karakas or 3/2 isnt enough if a gofy already hit the field etc.
And this is where you are hopelessly wrong. People get so obsessed with the locking potential of the card that they act as if it will only be worth it when it prevents opponents from casting ANYTHING at all. Decks in legacy are incredibly efficient, and will often utilize all of their mana well into the mid-late game, which means THC will often screw with their plans even later on. More so when they also have to deal with TGT, Port and Wasteland. Even when they already have all the lands they need, delaying shuffle effects and blockers is nothing to scoff at: DnT is not a pure control deck and it has had a strong tempo element at least ever since TGT was printed. THC will improve that aspect of our game in all but the most desperate board positions.
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THC will be much better in any stompy shell that can power her out T1-2 including much better protection with Playset of Cavern. Decks for her: Eldrazi & Taxes or Soldier Stompy
zzzz...
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It is more or less the same with Deathrite Shaman, this guy is played in any BGx shell since he is very strong but his true power is reserved for Elves Combo thanks to all the tribal synergy.
Holy shit... I actually meant the Brainstorm comparison as an hyperbole, but I see here that I was actually onto something. Please go tell those Grixis Delver players that DRS is NOT a staple element of that deck since the card only truly belongs in Elves.... :rolleyes:
At this point I am not sure whether I'm getting trolled, or if you people actually feel clever by posting stuff like this...
