Seeing as how it's all the rage, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo yet? Probably a big Zoo deck with Nobles.
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Seeing as how it's all the rage, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo yet? Probably a big Zoo deck with Nobles.
I tried it in both decks. I actually liked it better in small Zoo because it has more bodies to equip it onto, and because big Zoo already runs a lot of threats that can stand by themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
It's best when you can tutor up a SoLS or SoFI to punch through a Progenitus, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc. But it's such a tempo loss when you get hit by removal in response to the equip (spend 2 mana to tutor, 2 mana to "vial" in your equipment next turn, 2 mana to equip). It's also nice when you can get it at the right time and protect your Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary from removal. But it was otherwise ineffective for me.
Ostensibly, it's best against Tribal decks, against which we already have a great matchup. And when you do manage to get it online, it's pretty much lights out. But in the meantime, you're losing a lot of tempo just waiting to be blown out by a Gempalm Incinerator or a Submerge, which actually gives them an opportunity to take the game.
It's also nice in the mirror if you can get a Jitte or especially a SoLS active. But once again, you risk losing a lot of tempo to a Path/Sword/Bolt in response to equip. Or simply a Qasali Pridemage.
If you're after protection from the SFM package, I'd drop it all together for MOther of Runes. And if your metagame is all about maindecked Firespout, Burrenton Forgetender. While the SFM is indeed powerful, it's unlikely a board position when a sword goes to be equiped for big zoo or regular/fast zoo will be one or both of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
1-drastically different in creature size and power
2-vunlerable to sweepers in both pre and post sideboarded games
If it's topdecked later on in the game, you still have to untap with it in play. With a pro-creature at your disposal, spot removal is contained, and in certain cases that would otherwise be tough to get out of. They aren't beaters by any means, but their role is to assist in the dominance of the red zone with their abilities, not bodies.
I feel that Stoneforge Mystic shines best in anything using Aether Vial. You get to 'cheat' the tutor into play around counterspells and mana requirements, and then all you have to do is have 1W to get your equipment 'vial-ed' into play around counterspells or mana requirements. It's a very parallel effect, and I think it works best with hate bears, so something like Junk w/Bob & bears it can work. In UW-Tempo it works, making your Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists into more effective threats. I really think it shines in Deadguy Ale though...you get bob/tops, some hatebears, and a seriously good mana denial plan (Wasteland/Vindicate, sometimes Sinkhole) where you aren't splashing green for Goyf, so you need equipment to make your bears get there.
In zoo? Not in legacy. Standard, extended maybe, but not legacy. Turn your dudes sideways and burn the snot out of your opponent, that's how zoo rolls. Stoneforge Mystic is just too slow. I would suggest that for 4 mana, Elspeth is so much better than a Mystic package. One card, immediate use, and serious consequences with even just one creature on the board.
Yesterday I played GSZ Zoo in the weekly Syracuse legacy event. There were about 10 people. I played a pretty standard list.
LAND (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
DUDES (23)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
SPELLS (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
SIDEBOARD
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Path to Exile
2 Jitte
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Mindbreak Trap
I fought against b/w, g/u, g/w aggro, and 12 post and won all of my matches. Against aggro decks being able to consistently power out a larger army than them was awesome. Also GSZ for a Terravore can break through a ground stall like a champ. The one downside of this version is that playing against Perish with discard gets reall akward in games 2 and 3. Against 12 post my opponent and I each had one good game, then he punted game 3. wasteland, and Knight were really good in this match up. My one problem is sideboarding. Against aggro I want to bring in 2 Path and 2 Jitte, but I have no idea what to board out. Elspeth is good against creature standoffs, and Library lets me draw less lands when it counts. I would love to hear some opinions on sidebording from people who have experiencing with the deck.
With the deck you're running, I'd probably side out some Qasali Pridemages against aggressive decks, probably about two. Against Goblins for example you can also side out a Knight of the Reliquary.
I played following list at our local tournament with approx 38 people showing up to battle for ital Legends boosters, Duals etc.
Main
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
Side
2 Null Rod
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
I finishes 3rd with a 5:1(10:4) record and MVP all day was Green Sun's Zenith into Gaddock Teeg.
Matchups:
PainterStone with SnT Emrakul backup plan: 0:2 A mistake in game one and the missing Karakas in Game 2 where neck breaking
MUC: 2:0 He had no real business...
TES: 2:0 Teeg was MVP in both games
Spiral Tide: 2:1 Teeg was MVP... In the first game he was able to bounce him and go off for the win.
Stax: 2:1 Teeg was MVP in game two and three..
No Bant: 2:0 Game one zoo speed wins it even with this rather slow list and game two i was able to keep him off getting up to 4 mana by killing his Arbor and Hierarch.
The Punishing Fire/Grove plan was underwhelming all day long but i didn't face any tribal or zoo deck to really use it well...
Seeing how most of the recent discussion focuses around Big/Zenith Zoo, I’ll post up a quick report. I’ve played 2 local events and have gone a combined 9-2, splitting top 4 both times.
Yesterday I went 3-1 beating UG NO-Show, Affinity and 12Post Emrakul, losing to UGR Next Level Thresh.
Round 1: Allan w/UG NO-Show
G1: 14/14 Terravore with active Knight + StP races Progenitus
G2: Burn down his Natural Order food until I get Teeg online. He Shows in a Woodfall Primus but my army get’s there.
1-0 Matches
2-0 Games
Round 2: Chris w/Affinity
G1: Terravore tramples through Etched Champion
G2: I have to race his double Champion and win a tight one on the back of green beaters and Lavamancer.
2-0
4-0
Round 3: John w/Next Level Thresh
G1: I sandbag my double Wasteland as he has fetch + double Waste, he fetches a Trop to Stifle my fetch, I Waste. He fetches another Trop to play Goyf, I StP and Waste. Double Exalted Nacatl takes him to 6 before he finds a Volcanic, plays Lavamancer and then Fire on my two Hierarchs. I rip a Mountain, swing 3 and Bolt 3.
G2: I keep triple fetch + hierarch, he keeps double Stifle + Bolt.
G3: We both mull to 6, I keep a shaky T1 Taiga -> GSZ -> Arbor. T2 Grim. T3 rip Hierarch. He rips a fetch -> Volcanic -> Firespout -> blowout before I can drop my Knight.
2-1
5-2
Round 4: Jeremiah with his UG 12Post Turbo-Eldrazi deck
G1: Triple Waste
G2: Grip on Needle naming Waste, Double Waste + Knight -> 3rd Waste
3-1
7-2
Thoughts:
Terravore = the nuts as a singleton/GSZ target
4x Wasteland is the right call in the current metagame
Never saw Elspeth (2x) and she got boarded out a lot
I ran a single Eternal Witness because I’ve often found myself wanting to Zenith for something that could affect the board more or win the game on the spot. Witness into Bolt/Swords can be extremely potent.
Aside – here’s a sideboard I would consider bringing to a bigger event. Combo is a nightmare matchup but I feel like Teeg + Null Rod + REB gives you a punchers chance, while all 3 being extremely versatile options. Finks is great against tribal, OG Zoo and decks packing Perish. I tried to include broad answers that are good in multiple matchups.
I’m also curious about sideboarding strategy against the current major archetypes: Junk, Next Level Thresh, Team America, Merfolk, Goblins, NO Bant/Show, X & Taxes, UR Welder/Painter, Elf Combo, Zoo/Mirror (I think stuff like Combo/Dredge is pretty straightforward).
Specifically, what comes out in those matchups?
1 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
My list (see above) has 21 lands and, so I always remove one of my wastelands in matches where they are underwhelming. In many of those matches however, i feel like Pridemage can be a real asset, so I never side him out. I would live to hear other people's ideas on these matched as I always want to bring in ore cards than I want to take out.
In each of those match ups, it's important to focus on what they're bringing in against you, as the deck appears to have game against a mixed room. Trump things they're trying to do, and craft a sideboard that'd afford you the outs to a blow out, like firespout or fallout for example. I've been toying with Burning-tree Shaman and Leyline of Vitality (i know)
I feel like all leyline of vitality saves is Nacatl, everything else would already have survived with out it, or it doesn't make them big enough to save them. Absolute law might not be too bad against next level thresh, although you can't burn their goyfs if its relevent, but it makes all their firespouts and burn effects dead cards.
I'd honestly be more worried about maindecked Firespout than Thresh, in my own meta game that is. Noble Hierarchs still bite the dust, but it makes their sweepers a three mana one for one, sometimes they might get an extra creature, or a leyline wasn't in the opening hand, but its effects are often useful.
I feel like Kitchen Finks are a MUCH better answer to Firespout than something narrow like Leyline of Vitality. Finks comes in against fast aggro, Perish and Firespout.
The real challenge that I’ve been having is the manabase (especially against Stifle/Waste strategies). Between the always wanting G, often needing W and R, and Nacatl land requirements, Big Zoo can present some really tough decisions if you put your opponent on Wasteland. Do you fetch Taiga -> Grim Lavamancer and risk getting Wasted off your red source? Or do you potentially shut yourself off green? I've been running into issues like this occasionally.
Here’s my current setup:
9 Fetch:
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Duals:
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Basics:
1 Forest
1 Plains
5 Utility:
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
22 Lands Total
I don’t want to add a land because of Hierarch, because the curve is relatively low, and because you want to draw gas after you hit 3-4 mana sources.
I’ve been unimpressed with Dryad Arbor and basic Mountain, although basic Mountain can be essential in the Merfolk/Goblins matchup where they will actively try to keep you off red.
On sideboarding:
In what matchups does Sylvan Library come out? It’s never bad, but it’s not as game breaking in all matchups. Same question RE: Elspeth?
I run 4 Arid Mesa and 4 Wooded Foothills as fetches since the most important basic against most Wasteland-strategies is Mountain. You should really add a Mountain. Also, if I can open with Noble Hierarch, I go for Taiga most of the time. Even if they have Wasteland, you still have two mana on turn two (unless they countered the Hierarch of course) to cast some business. It's also really hard to play tempo on this deck without Stifle, it's just way too fast and has too many tempo-tricks on its own.
I agree on Dryad Arbor. It didn't matter in a single situation for me so far, so I cut it. Anyway, I don't think Elspeth is worth playing. She has been too clunky for me so far and never had a significant impact on the game unless I was winning anyway. I've had some really bad luck with drawing her in the wrong situations, though. But in my extensive testing with her, she really didn't work out. If I was to run any four-drop, it would be Thrun. That guy is amazing, and our aggro matchups are good enough anyway, we don't need Elspeth to win here anyway.
I also never side out Sylvan Library. Drawing gas is always important. I have 2 Gaddock Teeg maindeck, and the things I usually board out are these and my Pathes.
By the way, why don't run run a Horizon Canopy or two? It's really strong.
Thanks for the input.
The mountain is something I struggle with because with 7 non-green sources out of 22 lands, you can't cast 2/3 of your spells with 1/3 of your lands. I feel like the 9th fetch is more versatile considering red is by far the tertiary color in the deck. Grim Lavamancer is the card that really complicates things, as it requires continuous access to red to be effective.
I'd go Taiga -> Hierarch on the play all day, on the draw it's a lot riskier. If they can keep you off Knight mana or make Daze a hard counter for an extra turn (via Wasteland), Vial will out tempo Hierarch almost every time.
Good advice on Elspeth. Definitely a pet card of mine from my Landstill days. I think I'll move Jitte main instead and possibly bring Thrun out of the side.
I've found Canopy to be little more than a pain land. I suppose the only situation I'd miss it is if I were digging for something with Knight in play. But I've rarely used Knight to do anything but smash and tutor Wasteland/Karakas. With 9 fetches + 4 Wasteland, growing Knight is never an issue for me. If anything, I'd add it as the 23rd land to add a mana source without diluting my midgame draws too much.
How's Teeg main with GSZ been? Also, has Path screwed up your Wasteland strategy? It seems contradictory to me, which is why I run Swords to Plowshares.
I haven't had manabase issues so far. For reference, this is my current manabase:
//Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Plus I'm playing a full set of Noble Hierarchs. This works out pretty well, and I'm often testing against decks with Wasteland or Dragon Stompy, which also punishes greedy manabases. I agree on Taiga -> Noble Hierarch being worse on the draw. Against decks with Stifle being on the draw sucks in general. The tempo matchups are all really close to even, and it depends a lot on who's going first. But I'm really not afrainf of Merfolk at all. I don't remember losing even a single game against Merfolk in the past few months.
Maindeck Umezawa's Jitte is something I'm trying out right now as well, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep it. It helps in almost every single matchup, as it can turn even stuff like Noble Hierarch into a threat, lets you play with less creatures on the board, which means you're stronger against sweepers (especially Perish is pretty strong, I'm not afraid of Firespout anymore at all either). And it wins Goyf wars for example. I like it much more than Grim Lavamancer, which I have cut entirely now.
What I like about Horizon Canopy is that it's smoothing out my draws. This really helps against control variants and basically everything that has a way to deal with your creatures. I consider cutting one again for a Savannah, though.
Maindeck Gaddock Teeg with 4 Green Sun's Zenith is amazing. It helps against storm combo, Force Of Will, planeswalkers and other random nasty things like recurring Engineered Explosives or even Breakthrough from Dredge. Being able to go turn two Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg after going Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor turn one was the only reason I included Dryad Arbor in my list by the way. But this is just so unlikely to happen and so not worth it.
About Path To Exile. The reason I'm running it over Swords To Plowshares is the time you want to use it. Early game your creatures are bigger than anyone elses, plus we have Lightning Bolt to push through damage. The only reason why we would need even more removal is when they have big dudes, basically Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Terravore or Knight Of The Reliquary. When your opponents can cast those creatures, they have enough mana anyway. Thus, giving them a land is less of a tempo-loss than giving them 5+ life, which means we most likely need one more turn to win. I'm considering two Swords To Plowshares sideboard, though. I want something to deal with decks that have a lot of creatures. The other contender is Flame Slash. I'm really not sure which one to take.
I prefer Swords to Plowshares to Path to Exile. If you're looking for something that takes care of (small) creatures, you could try Arc Trail. Seems good against Goblins and Merfolk, for example. I haven't tried it myself, but others have. There was even a list floating around in this thread that had them.
I play 2 plowshares and 4 path since path is great against TA and other decks with no basics, and plowshares are good vs. opponents nobles, and other creatures in decks that you wont allow getting more lands.
What are peoples opinions on SB price of progress? I really like them, since they can screw up so many decks and get them within burn range/creature lethality quickly.
Tnaks for this, it's one of the best arguments for using Path to Exile in Zoo I've seen lately. I'm just curious against what kind of decks you want to bring in additional removal like Swods or Flame Slash?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Also: since people are talking about getting rid of small creatures: what's wrong with using Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lightning Helix? Playing Bolt on a T1 Noble Hierarch seems like a very good plan to me, you can keep the Paths for the really big guys and you don't have to play suboptimal cards like Arc Trail.
I'm running four Lightning Bolts. And before Green Sun's Zenith, I also had four Chain Lightnings. I'd love to play them again, but I really don't see what I should cut since everything else is just better. Lightning Helix is okay, but I didn't like it the last tournament I played it in. I never needed it and rather would've had Chain Lightnings, which I included again after the tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Eddie
And also, I want to have additional removal against creature-heavy decks like other Zoo or stuff like Bant. Being able to deal with Rhox War Monk and early Tarmogoyf is a huge upside of Flame Slash. On the other hand, Swords To Plowshares does this as well, plus dealing with hasty Goblins and the like. Removing your opponents turn one Noble Hierarch is a good plan as well, especially if you have a Wasteland to follow up with. Right now, I prefer Swords To Plowshares but Flame Slash is really close.