[Deck] Dredge

I'm not playing in tournaments for a while, hence I'd like to test the LED build to see how it performs. I've been playing LED-Less for over two years, and I think it's time for some changes.

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// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
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Anyway, back in the old days some LED builds used to play Tireless Tribe as a sideboard replacement for the artifact; now there's Faithless Looting, so Deep Analysis has been obsoleted. Both Tribe and Looting can only be cast via rainbow lands, while Looting doesn't eat removal and has an utility in the graveyard. During post-board games my LED-Less build (as many others do) packs a full set of Tribe/Imp/Study. This LED build has access to Looting/Imp/Study instead. The difference is abysmal - I can no longer grind games with Tribe, though I can find solutions while being more explosive with Looting. Swords to Plowshares is also more common than Spell Pierce. These are my assumptions, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Now: I thought of a pretty linear sb plan like -4 Breakthrough/-4 LED, +4 Grudge/Chain, +2 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Dread Return/Ingot Chewer (against Cage), with Iona taking the spot of 1x Ichorid if needed. My question is: is it viable? Thanks in advance.

@ Felidae:

Congratz on the finish.
One question: did you not have access to LED or did you choose not to run it on purpose? Just curious as I'm still testing both variants and trying to figure out what's better.


@ Vandalize:

Looks good. I agree with Jares, though, in that you should run the other two Lootings. Even with only 2 LED, I feel you want to make sure to hit your turn 1 shenanigans whenever you draw it. Cutting Storms won't hurt that much I suppose.


@ Digital Devil:

That's the German 60 that seem to have proven themselves to be very strong and supposedly one of the strongest lists you could play atm. I like it a lot, although I'm constantly trying to fit another gold land or two in the main deck. But this list is really as tight as it gets for a M:tG deck.

Just one thing: if you board out LEDs most of the time, you probably shouldn't run it. Same reasoning as when Lootings wasn't around.


(PS: I said IF he boards them out. Please don't quote me again, complaining why people ARE boarding them out so often. I'm still trying to figure things out and this includes some studies on how often I actually do board them out.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

@ Felidae:

Congratz on the finish.
One question: did you not have access to LED or did you choose not to run it on purpose? Just curious as I'm still testing both variants and trying to figure out what's better.

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I'll be looking forward to the results of your testing, as I've also been testing both LED and LEDless lists. As of the moment, I've become more comfortable with LEDless, but I'm still in the process of analyzing the math that would help explain this outcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

@ Vandalize:

Looks good. I agree with Jares, though, in that you should run the other two Lootings. Even with only 2 LED, I feel you want to make sure to hit your turn 1 shenanigans whenever you draw it. Cutting Storms won't hurt that much I suppose.

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After reading Vadalize's post again, I noticed that Firestorm would surely be able to help against the meta that he'll be playing against. Having said that, I would suggest the following: [-1] Firestorm, [-1] Dread Return, [+2] Faithless Looting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

Just one thing: if you board out LEDs most of the time, you probably shouldn't run it. Same reasoning as when Lootings wasn't around.

(PS: I said IF he boards them out. Please don't quote me again, complaining why people ARE boarding them out so often. I'm still trying to figure things out and this includes some studies on how often I actually do board them out.)

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Haha, I like this disclaimer! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

I'm not playing in tournaments for a while, hence I'd like to test the LED build to see how it performs. I've been playing LED-Less for over two years, and I think it's time for some changes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, back in the old days some LED builds used to play Tireless Tribe as a sideboard replacement for the artifact; now there's Faithless Looting, so Deep Analysis has been obsoleted. Both Tribe and Looting can only be cast via rainbow lands, while Looting doesn't eat removal and has an utility in the graveyard. During post-board games my LED-Less build (as many others do) packs a full set of Tribe/Imp/Study. This LED build has access to Looting/Imp/Study instead. The difference is abysmal - I can no longer grind games with Tribe, though I can find solutions while being more explosive with Looting. Swords to Plowshares is also more common than Spell Pierce. These are my assumptions, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Now: I thought of a pretty linear sb plan like -4 Breakthrough/-4 LED, +4 Grudge/Chain, +2 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Dread Return/Ingot Chewer (against Cage), with Iona taking the spot of 1x Ichorid if needed. My question is: is it viable? Thanks in advance.

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It's observable that there has been some movement away from Dread Return fairly recently, so if you're not completely sold on your game plan on using that card (and its lone DR target), then you might want to consider allotting those three sideboard slots to something that you're more confident in playing. Some graveyard hate in the sideboard would be nice.

Kind Regards,
jares

@ Izor: I currently don't own a playset of LED's, but I have roughly 3 sets floating around in the hands of my friends, so I had acces to them.
Why did I still played LEDless then ?
Actually I just like to play this version from time to time, thats all.
Dunno if LED or LEDless is superior to the other and at the end of the day it all comes down to the meta and personal preferance ( as with every choices for this deck that have been discussed lately ).

I'm a big fan of all-4-of lists and after some testing of the "german" version with no DR+ targets in main, sb.
I'm just wondering if I should run 4x Lootings in my LEDless version(they act like Careful Studies practically all the time, because 3 mana is not that easy to get when you are not playing LEDs)?
Also I'm not exactly sure what I should run in 2 free md slots(4Leds-2 tarnished=2 slots): candidates are Firestorm, 15th land, Darkblast and maybie 2 Street Wraiths or 2 Gitaxian Probes(anoyne tested these as Cabal Therapy inprovement?).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadManMax

I'm a big fan of all-4-of lists and after some testing of the "german" version with no DR+ targets in main, sb.
I'm just wondering if I should run 4x Lootings in my LEDless version(they act like Careful Studies practically all the time, because 3 mana is not that easy to get when you are not playing LEDs)?
Also I'm not exactly sure what I should run in 2 free md slots(4Leds-2 tarnished=2 slots): candidates are Firestorm, 15th land, Darkblast and maybie 2 Street Wraiths or 2 Gitaxian Probes(anoyne tested these as Cabal Therapy inprovement?).

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I'm currently playing LEDless and testing out Faithless Looting instead of Tireless Tribe. So far the results have been pretty positive, but I haven't had much time to do any serious testing. The flashback hasn't really been relevant due to lack of lands to flash them back with, but it seems the Careful Study effect is an improvement over the Tribe.

I'm currently running this LEDless build:

4 City
4 Mine
4 Coliseum
3 Citadell

4 PImp
4 Moeba
4 Ichorid
4 Troll
4 Imp
4 Thug

1 Darkblast

4 Bridge

4 Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Study
4 Looting

Side:
2 Grudge
2 Chewer
4 Claim
1 Ray
3 Firestorm
1 Darkbalst
2 Coffin Purge


Cutting Tireless Tribe or Firestorm from the pre Loothing list in favour of adding 4 Loothings looks like the way to go, because lets face it: It feels pretty awesome to run 8 Studies.
Also running less then 3 Firestorms seems rather random in my eyes.

Hello all,
This is my current Ledless list, So far in testing it has been working very well, outside of my misplays the deck has not let me down. Thoughts?


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass


4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough


4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

//Sideboard
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Nature's Claim
3 Coffin Purge
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Not one to scoff at lists, but how is this getting there with only 12 lands? Not even the LED variants are currently running that few lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Que

Not one to scoff at lists, but how is this getting there with only 12 lands? Not even the LED variants are currently running that few lands.

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I agree with this observation, as supported by the following figures:

• With only 8 Gold Lands, the list has a 65.36% chance of being able to cast the non-blue spells in the main deck.
• With a total of 12 blue-producing lands, the list has a 80.94% chance of being able to cast the blue spells in the main deck.

Basically, you're likely to have problems with casting Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp (not to mention Cabal Therapy, or even Golgari Thug when the going gets tough).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

So far there has not been much of an issue with the 12 land set-up, but I do understand the math is very against it, for the sake of consistency, I will probably put breakthrough to 2 for two paradise, Test it that way and just see if It will eliminate the odd mulligans I have to take.

Quote:

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I'm a big fan of all-4-of lists and after some testing of the "german" version with no DR+ targets in main, sb.
I'm just wondering if I should run 4x Lootings in my LEDless version(they act like Careful Studies practically all the time, because 3 mana is not that easy to get when you are not playing LEDs)?
Also I'm not exactly sure what I should run in 2 free md slots(4Leds-2 tarnished=2 slots): candidates are Firestorm, 15th land, Darkblast and maybie 2 Street Wraiths or 2 Gitaxian Probes(anoyne tested these as Cabal Therapy inprovement?).

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If you want we can play more at Cockatrice..actually 2/0 :laugh:
The Quadlazer is the right thing we should go, imo. And DR are worthless. Only missed them 1 time against Elves ( Elesh )

K1w1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beatusnox

So far there has not been much of an issue with the 12 land set-up, but I do understand the math is very against it, for the sake of consistency, I will probably put breakthrough to 2 for two paradise, Test it that way and just see if It will eliminate the odd mulligans I have to take.

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I would also suggest for you to consider cutting [1x] Dread Return (to possibly make room for a Breakthrough), as you won't really need more than one in a game unless you're trying to chain a Sphinx of Lost Truths/Sun Titan into an FKZ.

Cheers,
jares

Don't cut any Breakthroughs from this deck. Breakthrough is the card that makes this deck so good. It adds even more speed to the deck than LED ever could and it has a lot of utility outside going off as fast as possible.

By running LEDs but no Breakthrough you basically reduce LED's usefulness to turn 1 only. The reason is that one Breakthrough alone can Dredge the same number of cards by turn two than LED plus Looting/Study can. So a LED list w/o Breakthroughs isn't fundamentally faster than a LEDless list with BT, which somewhat misses the point of LED entirely. Especially as LED forces us to cut down on graveyard goodies (DR package for instance), we have to make sure that we mill as many cards as possible very fast, or else We can potentially have a lot of trouble getting there with only Therapies and Ichorids. Milling 20 cards on turn 1 is nice, but if we don't find a Therapy and don't even run DRs, we haven't accomplished much. Sometimes you also don't find the Looting to flashback with RRR floating after milling only 10-12 cards. With Breakthrough plus LED, you can expect to get about 40-43 cards into your graveyard by turn one instead.

Quote:

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Don't cut any Breakthroughs from this deck. Breakthrough is the card that makes this deck so good. It adds even more speed to the deck than LED ever could and it has a lot of utility outside going off as fast as possible.

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I disagree with that, because Breakthrough is the worst card in the deck, IMO (!). I board it out in 80% of my games, because i need the space for hate-destruction. And LED + Looting can Dredge four times, too. You really don't need Breakthrough to win against your opponent. LED still gives you the option to flashback your looting instantly.

Actually i will try with DRs again. ( In the Breakthrough-slots )
At sunday i'm at a tourney and i will give it a try with: 2 DR, 1 Sun Titan and FKZ.
At sideboard:
I played many games and i came to the conclusion that i cut the purify/purge + ray of revelation for four (4) Leyline of Sanctity. This card doesn't help against surgical extraction, but there were so many times my opponents are playing extirpate/leyline/artifacthate..
So why Leyline of Sanctity? It helps against:
-Burn
-Storm ( Tendrils/ Spiral Tide )
-Tormod's Crypt
-Bojuka Bog
-Ravenous Trap ( I have seen this card really often this time )
-Wheel of Sun and Moon
-Discard ( Studies, LED )
If i forget something, GOOD! There are so many things in which the leyline does his job, that i decided to play this as a 4-of. And that's because i can't beat Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Extirpate/Scavenging Ooze with purify/purge.

Any thoughts?

K1w1

@Leyline of Sanctity: It goes in and out of my sideboard from time to time.
It is currently out.

I have never lost against burn with LED dredge, so I don't seenthe benefit there.

I used to think it was a good SB card against Storm, but those decks can play around leyline pretty easy. Keeping a hand with Leyline of Sanctity makes you keep weak hands. Your best bet against storm is racing with cabal therapies.

Leyline is good against Junk decks that use Bog and Crypt cards. In fact, Leyline is the absolute best card against bog(with or without KoR).

Leyline is also good against the Wheel/tormod's with e tutor that maverick likes to play. Problem is you absolutely need Leyline in your opener. Furthermore, maverick has ooze to battle as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izor

Don't cut any Breakthroughs from this deck. Breakthrough is the card that makes this deck so good. It adds even more speed to the deck than LED ever could and it has a lot of utility outside going off as fast as possible.

By running LEDs but no Breakthrough you basically reduce LED's usefulness to turn 1 only. The reason is that one Breakthrough alone can Dredge the same number of cards by turn two than LED plus Looting/Study can. So a LED list w/o Breakthroughs isn't fundamentally faster than a LEDless list with BT, which somewhat misses the point of LED entirely. Especially as LED forces us to cut down on graveyard goodies (DR package for instance), we have to make sure that we mill as many cards as possible very fast, or else We can potentially have a lot of trouble getting there with only Therapies and Ichorids. Milling 20 cards on turn 1 is nice, but if we don't find a Therapy and don't even run DRs, we haven't accomplished much. Sometimes you also don't find the Looting to flashback with RRR floating after milling only 10-12 cards. With Breakthrough plus LED, you can expect to get about 40-43 cards into your graveyard by turn one instead.

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Not that I disagree with cutting Breakthrough = Bad, but saying LED's usefulness is reduced to turn 1 only just because you cut Breakthrough is either seriously overexagerated or you're unintentionally misplaying. You can easily keep a hand with Golgari Gravetroll and LED and blow out aggro handily by turn 4~ etc.

That aside, how many of you guys intentionally skip City of Brass -> Putrid Imp in order to DDD vs Island go? I see a disturbing amount of people dropping game 1 to Daze on Cockatrice, I don't understand what people's rush is to play the card out immediately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Not that I disagree with cutting Breakthrough = Bad, but saying LED's usefulness is reduced to turn 1 only just because you cut Breakthrough is either seriously overexagerated or you're unintentionally misplaying.

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I think that what he might mean by that is that LED has a dependency on having Faithless Looting in the graveyard, and if you don't have Faithless Looting in your opening hand alongside LED, you have fewer options for getting cards in your graveyard if you're not running Breakthrough. I've also been trying to analyze this dependency of LED, but I haven't had the time to really objectify it. I agree with you, though, that LED would still be useful past turn 1, given that these dependencies would be addressed, of course (Cephalid Coliseum also helps).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

That aside, how many of you guys intentionally skip City of Brass -> Putrid Imp in order to DDD vs Island go?

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*raising hand*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I see a disturbing amount of people dropping game 1 to Daze on Cockatrice, I don't understand what people's rush is to play the card out immediately.

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This is something that people will probably learn from experience, more often than not. I'm thinking that City of Brass into Putrid Imp vs. "Island. go" might only be a good play if the player is planning to do something worthwhile on turn two after another land-drop. Either way, though, passing up on a perfectly good DDD and jumping into the unknown versus an Island doesn't sound too wise.

Kind Regards,
jares

Watching SCG Tampa.
Was i the only one who was screaming at there computer when Zach Tyree just out of no where discards his LED for no good reason? Then he loses game one because of it........wow