Yeah, that's usually how I lose to miracles. They find a 3, and then just float it for infinite while I cry that I can't play Knight.
Go go gadget Abrupt Decay!
"Your warranty...has been scrapped." /with Austrian accent
-Matt
Printable View
Yeah, that's usually how I lose to miracles. They find a 3, and then just float it for infinite while I cry that I can't play Knight.
Go go gadget Abrupt Decay!
"Your warranty...has been scrapped." /with Austrian accent
-Matt
I agree with Ian, but there's one more thing: shaman *looks* like a better draw than the mox on the mid/late game...
It's much better than a late drawn Mox for sure, but is that enough to make it an include? A slap to the face is better than a kick in the nuts, but it doesn't mean I want it all the time.
-Matt
Ahahha yeah, I was just wondering.
I'll take the slap :wink:
Just going a little further on Shaman/Mox- There is a chance on turn 2 that you still won't get to use the Shaman to play a 3cc spell, even with another land in hand. Just the same, there's a chance you don't get to play the same spell with Mox + 2 lands in your opener. Mox, however, is a permanent answer to Moon effects, Wastelands, etc. Shaman is only temporary.
Mox also helps with Knight/Goyf (artifact in the yard? Yes, please) while Shaman will probably hinder them if you're forced to use your yard.
That didn't answer my question why more people don't play Junk at all. All that did was summarize what most everyone is doing: playing a Maverick deck with a black splash. While there is nothing wrong with Maverick/b, your post did not address my question. My question was why barely anyone is discussing Junk and why everyone is discussing Maverick/b.Quote:
On why people don't play junk more often: You don't get to do anything inherently broken while you are playing junk/rock. The whole lifeblood of the deck is just having a solid and consistent 75 with decent match ups against the field. With this being said it is just a midrange deck with weaknesses in the super early game, no force of will, and in the super late game, no counterbalance/any lock.
After that we are just a Knight of the reliquary deck that doesn't play Mother of Runes, so our knights die easier...
The deck requires you to make the correct lines of play from the very beginning and has very few save your ass cards that can save you after you have fucked up. What do you discard on turn 1? Goyf or Bob? Knight or Bob? GSZ for what?
If you know the format and what decks you are playing then you can make the correct choices and in turn win some games. If you don't know the format, which most people don't, then you are better off picking a deck with the brainstorm/force safety net or even an I win button to ease play.
The entire gameplan is fundamentally different. The lists with Birds/Hierarch, GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, etc... those decks are midrange aggro decks. Junk is a tempo aggro/control deck. At any rate, the format seems alot friendlier to Junk right now than to Maverick/b.
This color combination is something I'm quite interested in, and maybe I'll eventually build it, but I'm still quite new to the distinction between the two decks you're referring to. What exactly is Junk compared to this? I don't mean this in a demeaning tone but quite frankly, saying that a deck is a "tempo aggro control" deck is a step away from being the single most vague and undescriptive qualification of a deck one could make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Like what does an ideal Junk game look like? IE: Nic Fit wants to play an explorer and a therapy / flash it back by turn 2 to hit a Deed, then drop huge fatties that are out of range of deeds for one-sided blow outs. It accelerates the game state to a point where legacy decks aren't used to getting to and don't operate well at--Nic Fit will utilize 6 mana significantly better than most decks will.
Or is there a Junk thread that's not this thread? (Also, Necra is a far, far cooler name for this color scheme than Junk is haha).
Junk has had spikes of popularity over the years, but if you are relatively new to the scene (not saying you are, but your join date for The Source is 2011), you wouldn't be aware of what Junk is.
The term "tempo" is vague, I agree. I was using that classification to distinguish it from the midrange aggro strategy, but I'll be happy to provide more clarification.
Historically, the black tempo design started off as B/w Deadguy Ale. The compisition of the deck was spot on, but it had a pretty bad capitalization on its tempo, utilizing expensive unaggressive card advantage creatures as opposed to cheap efficient clocks (i.e Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter).
Anyway, the core of the deck (Junk) isn't that much different from Canadian Threshold, New Horizons, Team America, etc. You still run a rather light creature base with efficient p/t creatures (10-12 typically). The difference is that instead of using a blue disruption package, the deck uses a black disruption package.
Instead of trying to gain tempo by interacting on the stack, Junk gains tempo by attacking the opponents hand and board resources (more easily referred to as resource denial). You hit them with effects that are powerful at the beginning of the game, but get weaker as the game goes on. Basically, Junk uses the black disruption package to destabilize the opponent, which creates a window of opportunity where it can drop an efficient p/t creature and kill the opponent before they can recover. The basic fundamental gameplan isn't any different than a deck like RUG Delver.
The list I posted on the previous page is a Junk list. It's fairly easy to notice the difference in composition between it and the Maverick/b decks being discussed. By Maverick/b, I'm referring to the decks that are heavily invested in a green/white midrange aggro package, with a light amount of discard maindeck, and some black removal options between main and side. Decks with GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, Planeswalkers even... those fall into the midrange aggro strategy, which I'm calling Maverick/b for simplicities sake.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
EDIT: Oh I also wanted to add that, as far as I am aware, Junk has always been discussed in The Rock thread. I don't believe there has ever been a seperate thread for Junk, except for a thread I made back in like 2008 called "Deadguy Rock," but I'm pretty sure that thread no longer exists. If it did, I would have just posted in there in the first place. ;)
EDIT 2: Moved this discussion to the Format Discussion forum instead.
Hanni, the answer is two-fold, simple, and unwanted. Not only are we not blue, but the thread is full of random archetypes mixed together.
There's a huge push for blue decks by both Pro and popular Joe players. There's also a heavy criticism for any non-blue player as having had made a sub-par choice. So, when new players start, they're typically handed blue decks now and told to never do anything else because Brainstorm is the strongest card in legacy*. Filters allow for mistakes as you have a better chance to recover from a mistake. So, in essence, the "traditional" blue decks are playing with a crutch. In this case, a lot of players are unwilling to get rid of the assistance and stand on their own.
The different archetypes become apparent as you search even the last 10 pages of this thread. Different packages, which in other decks warrant different threads (current AnT and TES are the best example as the real difference lies in the manabase at this point) are something that's overlooked here and advised on as a group. The confusion leads people to stray away as they get multiple viewpoints telling them to go many different routes. Example, I say play the Mox and 23 lands and Matt says play 24 and no Mox. While that may be small, when you start getting into packages - like Stoneforge, Green Sun, Discard, Planeswalkers and Removal - many new players become afraid to try out the different archetypes inside this one thread.
I guess the phantom 3rd part is strong opinions of this thread. There are many strong opinions in this thread. People sometimes seem like we're attacking your viewpoint. In reality, we're trying to understand your point or trying to make a point. If the conversations were in person they'd be done with food, drinks, and smiles (well, I'd look mad but that's just me).
Mind you, We do have multiple major tournaments wins this year. The two SCG wins were done facing the "top deck" of the time in the finals. It also placed multiple times in the top 16 with fewer players playing it at these tournaments than any of the tier 1 decks (haven't done the exact research but we average 2-8 players in a field of 300).
As for the names, I'll leave that alone. I can understand simplicity. I will say though, that's the reason Junk, Funkbrew, Rockguy (you're welcome hanni), Truffle Shuffle, and Dark Horizons (probably the best related to the "Maverick/b" deck you're mentioning) are all in the same thread. Although, I'm still not sure how Nic Fit got out when it is actually The Rock.
Kich867 - To clarify, Junk got it's name from the junk creatures it played (River Boa, Simian Grunts, etc) and like most older legacy decks, came from an Extended port. Most of the B/G(w) decks use a similar (if only in style) disruption package so it was the threat size/speed that really define the difference in name. Junk, after losing it's name the first time, began being called Aggro Rock in this thread. To my knowledge as well, there has been no official Junk thread and is probably the oldest archetype without its own thread.
I'll post some version of this in the other thread as well. I saw that but had already started typing/editing this.
*I don't think Brainstorm is the strongest card in legacy, just the best filter. I think the basics are the strongest cards. Island/Swamp being the strongest (daze/snuff out) and forest/plains being the weakest (Submerge/Massacre). Mountain's just the 0 point.
Just thought I'd drop by and see the old Junk thread. ;p
This is totally false. Try playing with Brainstorm and Ponder. Filters help smooth your draws, but they are by no means a crutch or easy-mode. Setting up your draws in the wrong order or shuffling the wrong cards almost always means you lose. There is very little room for mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
YesQuote:
Filters allow for mistakes
NoQuote:
you have a better chance to recover from a mistake
In other thoughts, I've been thinking of adjustments to be made post RTR. I've come up with a less invasive add for Decay than most as I've found my current removal package to be sufficient at killing pretty much everything.
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Choke
1 Timely Reinforcements
I've been thinking more on Thrun as an alternative to something in the 75 as well recently.
The decay in the main, in theory, allows me to not need the 1cc removal spell in the board. I'm thinking that because the average CC of the removal package has lowered enough. Paired with the two Pulse I should be able to deal with the big stuff as well; since there are more Jace than Miracle decks (since they play it as well), I figured to go 1;2 (Decay;Pulse).
Charm replaced the Zealous Persecutions as it does a similar thing and allows for regeneration of my team (survive EE or deed) and kills an opposing enchantments. Granted, Now my Bobs, Birds, Thalia's, and Trackers are going to die to this one. I would say that's more of a reason to cut Thalia but there aren't any decks I can think of that I want both against for their non-bo reason. It's probably more of a reason for Tracker.
This complaint has been commented on in the other thread (Here). Most of us who have played non-blue decks, have also played Blue decks. So, I won't comment more on that here. If you want more of a response on the subject, use this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Well, if you want to look at beating Brainstorm decks, you have to understand how they work. They rely on flexibility. They have all the answers in their deck for just about any kind of threat. The problem is when you overload them with one type of threat. Maverick is great at this because it taxes their creature removing capabilities. All their draws are creatures that need to be dealt with and you can only shuffle so many Spell Pierces back into your library.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
The problem Junk has with Brainstorm decks is that it is trying to attack on multiple avenues. Messing with GSZ, Vindicate, and Liliana presents opportunities for Spell Pierce to be live. Mox Diamond further ruins your ability to topdeck into a threat they can't answer. I'd start with a list more like this:
Land 24
Creatures 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells 20
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I have a new post shaman list that is pretty solid so far:
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
1 pridemage
1 gaddock
1 scavenging ooze
4 green sun zenith
4 thoughtsieze
4 swords
3 Lilliana
3 vindicate
23 lands
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 arbor
4 wastelands
8 fetchlands
3 bayou
1 savanah
1 scrubland
3 basics
Things I have learned: death rite shaman is fucking rediculous. You get to use the maverick plan of having 8 turn one "mana" drops with zenith and the shaman. Your curve also tops out at three so you usually always have a t1 or t2 play if shaman doesn't hit land on turn two.
I have dropped the number of discard spells because early threats can be nullified by shaman life gain and most early threats can be answered by the early graveyard hate he provides(t1 against reanimator or dregde buys enough time for ooze to get online).
Thoughtsieze stays at four for its awesome utility and disruption abilities. The removal of the other discard makes room for the other all around answer in vindicate which maybe should be decay to ensure that shit always dies when it needs to.
Shaman has changed matchup percentages into junks favor almost across the board. Against maverick he keeps knights small while ours are full size, this leaves us as the better knight deck while we both have scavenging oozes to get active.
RUG must kill this one drop for it nullifies land destruction and keeps mongeese out from threshold, while blocking them!!, this keeps counters and burn aimed at our one drop and not at our confidants.
It makes the smallest waves in the miracles matchup but it provides the most effect. In the longer miracle games you can force them to blow a terminus on a life draining shaman when the shaman has started to clear the yard of instants and sorceries. He has been doing 10-12 damage per game against people that haven't been killing him.
Comments? I'm not sure how the board changes now....
This is wrong and assuming that every deck with Brainstorm has the same funamental gameplan.Quote:
Well, if you want to look at beating Brainstorm decks, you have to understand how they work. They rely on flexibility. They have all the answers in their deck for just about any kind of threat. The problem is when you overload them with one type of threat. Maverick is great at this because it taxes their creature removing capabilities. All their draws are creatures that need to be dealt with and you can only shuffle so many Spell Pierces back into your library.
The problem Junk has with Brainstorm decks is that it is trying to attack on multiple avenues. Messing with GSZ, Vindicate, and Liliana presents opportunities for Spell Pierce to be live. Mox Diamond further ruins your ability to topdeck into a threat they can't answer. I'd start with a list more like this:
Playing a very heavy threat density (against the type of blue decks I'm assuming your talking about) works well because they lack the amount of creature removal to deal with the threat density. At a certain point, they run out of removal, while the aggro deck continues to draw creatures.
Miracles works well against heavy threat density decks like Maverick because it has enough removal to deal with their threats, and has a sufficient amount of card advantage to make sure they have more answers than the aggro deck can play creatures. Terminus hits multiple guys, giving the deck virtually more removal spells while at the same time providing card advantage. Counterbalance can gain incrimental card advantage over the course of the game, despite not being able to "lock" Maverick out, which is all it really needs Counterbalance to do in the first place.
Junk works well against Brainstorm decks, I'm not sure why you feel the opposite. Disrupting them proactively is one of the best ways to attack a reactive blue deck, actually. Again, not all blue decks with Brainstorm are the same. Discard is universally good against reactive blue spells, but something like land destruction is great against a mana hungry deck like Miracles and worse against an efficient deck like RUG Delver. Regardless, the mult-angle attack is still extremely effective and synergetic. Attacking the opponents hand forces them to commit threats to the board in order to not lose them, which then get destroyed by the permanent removal.
The only zones where there stuff is safe is on top of the library or in the graveyard. This deck can easily attack the graveyard postboard, so they are pretty much limited to effects like Brainstorm, Jace, and Top especially, to safeguard their stuff. The problem with relying on the top of the library is that reactive decks want their spells in hand so they can react with them and not on top of the library.
There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. Disrupting an opponent may not be a guaranteed way of preventing things from happening. An opponent can topdeck a Swords to Plowshares, for example. What it does do is throw the opponent off-balance, and it makes it alot harder for them to effectively deal with your threats.
As another example, let's say you attack Miracles manabase a bit. Instead of digging for lock pieces or whatever, they will be digging for land instead. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Cutting them off of flashing back Swords to Plowshares or casting Jace is nice.
On the flip side, let's say you blow up some Delver(s) and/or Goyf(s) (with removal, against RUG). Now instead of digging for countermagic to counter Junks creatures (since Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt are worthless at dealing with Junks creatures), they are digging for more creatures. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Resolving a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary after they resolve a 3/3 Mongoose is nice.
I do agree with your assessment of blues flexibility and consistency, and overloading a blue player with a large threat density does work well against typical blue aggro/control decks like Stoneblade and RUG.
Thank god someone else has a good level of insight into the format to see that we're not an awful deck, Hanni.
I would respond in the other thread in detail, but I've got a bad cold, so that won't happen today or tomorrow :/
-Matt
Finally got a chance to check in. This is on a phone, so please forgive hideous writing
My Stoneforge build died a horrible death at my local Duel for Duals. Sug's comments about lack of clock were tremendously evident.
Given the sad state of my Stoneforges, I went back and reexamined my changes since my times of success. Turns out, my brandy new Mox Diamonds took over slots that were previously Lingering Souls. LSouls is great with equipment, hence my previous successes. In order to make room for LSouls, I'm cutting the Stoneforge + equipment package, then adding in the best equipment to round out the deck. Current list looks like this:
4 Confidant
3 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
3 LSouls
3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
3 jitte
3 mix diamond
23 land
I'm pondering cutting one Jitte for a Birds or a SoFI, but this is a pretty solid core for this different way of running equipment in rock
Mirri- I have long been against stoneforge builds but with my experimenting with death rite shaman think I will be picking the card back up for testing. The extra four bodies to pick up equipment should always give us someone to hold a jitte. I don't think it will outplay the speed of the green giant but I could be interesting...
@Mirri:
I never said stoneforge is not good, I said it is not tempo-oriented. Forgive me if I,m talking rubbish but, let's go:
1) hymn plays well in a tempo deck. The whole premise of dark horizons was: cast hymn to rip hand apart, throw fat dude, vindicate land, ride to victory. Well, more or less, but you get the point. Your hymn is lost in that build. You are giving plenty of time for your opponent to recover.
2) lingering souls when carrying equipments can be nice. When you use swarms of tokens to overwhelm your opponent (like the new bw builds) is nice, too. In any other situation, all they do is stall the game.
3) 3 jitte seems strange, but I understand what you mean.
You must decide what you are trying to accomplish with the deck. Tokens to carry equipments? Rip your opponent's hand and attack his resources while goyf punishes him? Take the control of the board, wipe it clean and drop a fatty? You cannot do all of those in the same deck, and you must decide what is best due to your meta. I'm also on the phone, it's too awkward to post a list thru here, but tomorrow I'll post some suggestions
The only player to still play the SFM package is Ian, correct? Maverick, for the most part, has left the mystic behind for just more copies of jitte(which is better in the mirror and against destruction effects).
With most decks packing answers to equipment across their 60's SFM has not been good for awhile now. Especially when you do not have free counter magic to protect the little guy. Goyf is ,IMO, just a better card for people who play green.
That being said I am still testing SFM in my Death-rite list.
Few questions about your list:Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
1. Why no Savannah in your mana base? If you draw your basic swamp/bog and a fetch land you can not fetch for all of your colors.
2. What did gaddock teeg ever do to you? He is a great help in the miracles and storm match ups and is easily fetch able by your GSZ, extract on swords GSZ for teeg is a pretty solid win against miracles on most days.
3. Why only three knight? As the best creature in the format and pretty much the reason GWx decks exist right now I am a little confused as to why you only play three, especially when you have the ability to play him on turn two and just roll.
4. Where is the misers copy of life from the loam? Against maverick and RUG is can be a game winner when you negate all of their mana denial in one fell swoop ,or 2cc sorcery...one or the other.
5. I am really squinting my eyes here and I cannot see golgari charm being better than any of the cards you listed: zealous persecution, EE, pernicious deed are all cards you should be playing over the charm. The only enchantment you can kill in this format is counterbalance and the 2cc charm is not going to be doing that regularly. The regenerate also seems sketchy in that the decks you will be regenerating your creatures are the decks you would want the -1/-1 sweeper effect against(maverick) any other deck will be RFGing your creatures.