I like agains't Merfolk too, once Sharpthooter + Knesis ( and Gemplam)rocks them, even with a lord out or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Printable View
I like agains't Merfolk too, once Sharpthooter + Knesis ( and Gemplam)rocks them, even with a lord out or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
The question for me is, what is more effective. having king mb and board bloodmoons oder magusmoons or have another chieftain and price of progress sb
Ok been reading forum for a while playing goblins for much longer than that and just can’t sit on the sidelines anymore…anyway I don’t understand why everyone still seems to be obsessed with R/B or mono red goblins. I have been playing R/G goblins and doing pretty good with them. Since local success doesn’t prove much I also got 3rd and a nice tabernacle at the .... With the printing of Chieftain and definitely now with instigator goblins is definitely back. By back I don’t mean it will start dominating I mean it will be used more, which in turn means people will board against it more. This is where grip comes into play. It seems as though grip will be needed to continue to compete over the coming months. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming that people haven’t already deemed boartusk and the other black options a viable answer.
Also am I behind on the times but when did cutting all or mostly all piledrivers for chieftains become a viable option? Also people discussing chieftains over warchiefs? What is happening? Is this a fundamental shift in goblins or just people trying out things because they are new and exciting? Is there going to be 2 different types of goblins out there in the future? (I am highly skeptical that there isn’t an optimized version)
Also I don’t think this discussion has directly taken place; but can we possibly come to a conclusion about which color(s) of goblins are best for the typical diversified legacy meta? Please don’t consider cost and please do not even mention blue, (and I think you shouldn’t mention white but I think I’ll just piss off a lot of people saying that) In my o so humble opinion I clearly think R/G gives the best chance but I will try to briefly present the advantages of each, unless someone else beats me to it, because I have to get back to work now. sorry
there are a ton of wastelands out there. This is my reasoning behind mono red, I personally wouldnt drop below 4 warchief, the reduction in cost/haste is a big tempo boost. as far as piledriver, you really only need 2 at most to win games and he is not so great on his own.
I think that white is one of the best splashes. It offers enchantment removal just like green. It also has the best creature removal spell in the game - swords to plowshares - although I personally do not think it's that great in goblins. Finally, it offers a great anti-combo card in Orim's Chant. Combined with the otherwise commonplace Pyroblast, you can even the odds against combo decks. There are also a few innovative cards that could end up leading this splash to be the best of all: Crib Swap and Mirror Entity.
The black splash offers a number of interesting creatures from Lorwyn-Shadowmoon block. It also has Leyline of the Void, which is more useful than Relic of Progenitus in certain situations. It also offers a great creature removal spell - the best one for goblins - Warren Weirding. The biggest problem with the black splash is that you still have no answers to enchantments of which a number are gamestoppers for goblins (even besides Engineered Plague).
The green splash offers enchantment removal in Krosan Grip, which is probably better than any white enchantment removal. However, a wise opponent will usually be able to negate any advantage that you would gain from split second. Green also offers Piledriver pumpers like Skarrg, the Rage Pits and Berserk. However, green lacks any additional creature removal, and despite there being a number of multicolored red/green goblins, there aren't any seriously playable options.
The blue splash is called Merfolk.
The only real advantage to mono red is the ability to be essentially immune to Wasteland in a general sense where you're not losing land and you can't be ruined by recurring Wasteland. It also offers immunity from being denied a color in which case all your splashed cards in-hand become dead. Then again, you don't gain any of those luxurious splashes anyway. The other advantage to mono red is the ability to be immune to Stifled fetchlands ie. you could run a decklist without any fetchlands. Mono red is able to solve a few problems that the deck constantly faces:
Combo - Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void
White Enchantments - Anarchy
Engineered Plague - Boartusk Liege
Fatties - Stingscourger
However, you still lack true enchantment removal and true creature removal.
Edit: I personally play mono red because my meta has a very large amount of Wasteland and Stifle, and because I think that mono red's answers to problems such as combo and enchantmetns are as good as the answers provided by any other splash.
Truth be told, you want Leyline in your opening hand so, it really doesen´t mater what collor you splash. I never see people actually casting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malchar
And mono red has as good anwesers to combo and Enchanaments, as Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium for the latter, and discard for the 1st? I don´t think so.
EDIT: ok, saw your resoning, but: Combo can go off trough Pillar, and the other ones are ´´colorless´´. Anarchy is good. Grip is far more versatile than Liege (which I run in Rb sb). Stingscourer don´t remove. It is awesome when you´re winning, but then so Weirdings. When you´re facing a fatty, and have only 1 Sting in your hand, you will curse yourself.
@ Moosedog: I pretty much agree with you. I've been playing RG goblins forever now, but now I'm testing out Mono Red because I like the empowerment of playing 17 mountains.
Malchar, you have to realize that the green splash basically plays like monored. The green splash is not nearly as heavy a splash as the black splash. Basically, grip, and often hooligan.
Hooligan haters be gone! He is a beast. He kills vial. Vial wars define the mirror match, and the only way merfolk can beat us is if they get a billion lords out which is only achievable with vial. So he wins that matchup too. He also kills jitte in that matchup and other matchups. He also is a huge tempo gain against countertop, and can really screw with landstill's plans. Worst case scenario he is a 2/1 for 1R, which frankly has gone the distance for me a couple times.
I swear, if somebody brings up the "disynergy" with warchief, I will not be pleased. This has been tested extensively by tons of people and HE WORKS. Try it yourself before judging him.
Tin Street Hooligan is awesome. true story. RG plays like monored, I only played him and grip in my deck, sometimes a couple sideboard chokes. I posted back a few pages why RG is awesome so I'll leave it at that.
For the typical diversified meta, RG and Mono Red are definitely the best. Mono gives you stifle/wasteland invincibility. This is very important if you want to go round after round and win based on playskill rather than luck/bad matchups. But green offers grip/hooligan, which also serves to negate luck in matchups by opponent's who draw all their plagues or jittes. The problem I see with RG is that pithing needle answers all the things grip/hooligan answer except for plague and vial (admittedly the two biggest). So I'm trying pithing needle as a FOUR OF right now to see if it can fully replace grip/tsh.
I'm guessing you meant something other than Vial there.Quote:
The problem I see with RG is that pithing needle answers all the things grip/hooligan answer except for plague and vial (admittedly the two biggest).
---
Also, I like Chieftans/Boartusk's better than Krosan Grip against E Plague because they are still Goblins when the opponent doesn't draw their E Plagues.
No I did mean vial, because needle shutting down vial would be like boarding in pyroclasm for the mirror matchup.
Grip is usually too anti-synergistic to board in just for vial against goblins/merfolk. That's where TSH comes in as a beater, a goblin, and a vial/jitte killer for vial mirror matches.
Against E plague decks I think there are lots of other targets. In landstill we have factories, EE, disk, crucible, etc, the list goes on forever there. In countertop we have shackles which is a major problem oftentimes for me personally (TSH great here as well of course haha). In rock decks there is pernicious deed and top, both can generate significant card advantage for the rock player. In suicide strategies there is jitte.
I've never really had a problem with grip being able to target something. Often, the decks that board in plague, we can afford -1 card in our hand if the grip doesn't come in handy for a little bit, and if they lay their "bomb" deed or plague, we can nuke it pretty easily.
I'm personally a fan of the safety valve grip because it might not win us games like chieftain, but it will never lose us games like chieftain can when there is an active jitte on the table.
Gotchya.
Goblin Tinkerer and Shattering Spree can answer Jitte though. Same thing for any other artifact, like Vedalken Shackles.Quote:
I'm personally a fan of the safety valve grip because it might not win us games like chieftain, but it will never lose us games like chieftain can when there is an active jitte on the table.
The only value I see for splashing green for Grip, rather than have a stable manabase in mono red or getting a ton of goodies going black, is to be able to answer stuff like Moat and Humility.
I'm sorry but I think anybody running less than 4 Warchiefs is retarded. He may be the best Goblin ever.
Goblin Tinkerer does not answer Jitte in a reactive way and that's very important to keep in mind. I mean you probably aren't going to proactively use a Matron to fetch your lone Tinkerer so you will need to bring 3-4 copies which is undesirable.
Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic and Siege Gang Commander allow you to play around Jitte for a while. Krosan Grip is probably the best answer to Jitte, although Jittes of your own pull the trick off as well. To be frank, I hate making sacrifices in your manabase as a stable manabase is key to winning tournaments in my opinion.
So has warren instigator been accepted as a staple for the deck now? Should i pick up 4 of these, or wait on them, are they an auto include like all the other gobs? Or is everyone still testing him out
It's a staple. Someone is playing him in 2-3 copies, but the general feeling is that it's an automatic 4of.Quote:
Originally Posted by murderface
Indeed. Along with chieftain he is the nut high. My favorite play with the deck is turn 1 lackey, turn 2 attack, lackey in warchief, pay 2 for matron to search for piledriver, turn 3 get damn close to winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Ghost
A tinkerer does not answer a jitte, sorry. He needs haste to do so and take a guess which goblins are the first ones to bite the dust with a jitte on the table?
So would Shattering Spree be enough?
Pithing needle is usually less narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Nobody considering cards like Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy as SB cards for R/b because of their versatility? I always get back to these cards in my SB. They allow you to fight combo (I hate not being able to fight combo) and at the same time are not dead versus other match-ups since they're an 'answer' to all possible problem cards.
At the moment I'm considering this sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
This leaves 3 slots which can be filled with all possible cards already mentioned or I might put in an additional Thoughtseize and/or Pyrokinesis
I knew that I would forget to mention an important card. Tin Street Hooligan is probably the best card that you get with the green splash.
One of the fundamental problems is that no goblin can touch an enchantment. The only way is to splash non-goblin cards. At that point, one reaches a slippery slope where it is really tempting to add other things. For example, the green splash could simply side in 4x Tarmogoyf against Engineered Plague/Ghostly Prison etc. Tarmogoyf vs. Krosan Grip; which is the better non-goblin? I am not saying Tarmogoyf is better, but one has to keep it in mind.
I think that it is safe to say that anyone who runs mono red with fetchlands might as well change over to a light green splash. It is even possible to have the 1x Taiga in the sideboard for increased safety. My problem is that I don't even feel safe using fetchlands anymore. It is definately a large change, and I don't feel too confidant either way.
Edit: Warchief is one of the best goblins. However, much of its power comes from the combo with Goblin Piledriver. With a Warchief on the battlefield, a Piledriver costs only R, comes out with haste, and swings for at least 3 (with the Warchief). I have won many games by simply exploding onto the battlefield with huge hastey Piledrivers.
The problem with Warchief is that Piledriver is starting to get cut from some lists. This makes Warchief less amazing. However, I still like Warchief and I would use it even with zero Piledrivers. The reduced mana cost is extremely important. It allows goblins to stay ahead of the opponent on mana, and it works great in conjunction with Wasteland, Aether Vial, and Rishadan Port.
I think that if people need to start cutting things, after Piledriver, perhaps consider Goblin Matron.