[Deck] Dredge

I'm not sure... what scenario do you mean exactly?

in Round something, when he punts game 1 away against Belcher because he's just too dumb to recognize that his 2/2 Zombies win against his opponents 1/1 Goblins and where he just doesn't attack with 2 cards left in his deck, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip Burning Wosh ftw?

Or did you mean game 1 of the finals, where he skillfully discards his LED into Imp for no reason, not being aware of the 4 Lootings in his deck that could represent a Dredge 12 at some point?

Or did you mean in game 2 of the finals, where he doesn't Flashback Lootings with GGT in hand and LED in play, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip GSZ--> Ooze off the top?


This is so embarassing. Americans must have some sort of natural allergy against this deck. Noone is able to play OR play against it it seems. Those of you guys who know what they're doing seem to be a real rarity over there. If I was playing so poorly at only a local tourney over here, I'd easily go 0-X. In SCG Opens, I'd make the finals. Funny...

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Originally Posted by Izor

I'm not sure... what scenario do you mean exactly?

in Round something, when he punts game 1 away against Belcher because he's just too dumb to recognize that his 2/2 Zombies win against his opponents 1/1 Goblins and where he just doesn't attack with 2 cards left in his deck, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip Burning Wosh ftw?

Or did you mean game 1 of the finals, where he skillfully discards his LED into Imp for no reason, not being aware of the 4 Lootings in his deck that could represent a Dredge 12 at some point?

Or did you mean in game 2 of the finals, where he doesn't Flashback Lootings with GGT in hand and LED in play, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip GSZ--> Ooze off the top?


This is so embarassing. Americans must have some sort of natural allergy against this deck. Noone is able to play OR play against it it seems. Those of you guys who know what they're doing seem to be a real rarity over there. If I was playing so poorly at only a local tourney over here, I'd easily go 0-X. In SCG Opens, I'd make the finals. Funny...

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Wow i didnt know there were more bad plays Lol,Only got to catch the finals. I was referring to game 1 of the finals.

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Originally Posted by gamer4life

Watching SCG Tampa.
Was i the only one who was screaming at there computer when Zach Tyree just out of no where discards his LED for no good reason? Then he loses game one because of it........wow

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You weren't.

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Originally Posted by Izor

I'm not sure... what scenario do you mean exactly?

in Round something, when he punts game 1 away against Belcher because he's just too dumb to recognize that his 2/2 Zombies win against his opponents 1/1 Goblins and where he just doesn't attack with 2 cards left in his deck, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip Burning Wosh ftw?

Or did you mean game 1 of the finals, where he skillfully discards his LED into Imp for no reason, not being aware of the 4 Lootings in his deck that could represent a Dredge 12 at some point?

Or did you mean in game 2 of the finals, where he doesn't Flashback Lootings with GGT in hand and LED in play, patiently waiting for his opponent to rip GSZ--> Ooze off the top?


This is so embarassing. Americans must have some sort of natural allergy against this deck. Noone is able to play OR play against it it seems. Those of you guys who know what they're doing seem to be a real rarity over there. If I was playing so poorly at only a local tourney over here, I'd easily go 0-X. In SCG Opens, I'd make the finals. Funny...

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I'm not so sure about what that says about the meta that he's playing against, though, given that he did reach the Finals :laugh:.

Anyone know where I could find his deck list?

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Izor

Americans must have some sort of natural allergy against this deck. Noone is able to play OR play against it it seems. Those of you guys who know what they're doing seem to be a real rarity over there. If I was playing so poorly at only a local tourney over here, I'd easily go 0-X. In SCG Opens, I'd make the finals. Funny...

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I don't think there's a single person that agrees with you more than me. When I play this deck, I play it to a 'T.' I never miss triggers, stack everything correctly, etc., and yet somehow, someway, people that play like this or with versions that are downright garbage (see Adam Prosak's list) find their way to the elimination rounds of a Star City Open.

It's disheartening to watch and to be honest, I'm just tossing my fucking hands in the air and deciding to run four dredgers with no lands and see where that gets me. Probably a Grand Prix win at this point.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I don't think there's a single person that agrees with you more than me. When I play this deck, I play it to a 'T.' I never miss triggers, stack everything correctly, etc., and yet somehow, someway, people that play like this or with versions that are downright garbage (see Adam Prosak's list) find their way to the elimination rounds of a Star City Open.

It's disheartening to watch and to be honest, I'm just tossing my fucking hands in the air and deciding to run four dredgers with no lands and see where that gets me. Probably a Grand Prix win at this point.

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It gets even better. Look at his list:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Creatures
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

Sorceries
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
3 Firestorm
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Breakthrough
1 Cabal Therapy

So am I not an elitist for saying how incredibly bad people are playing this deck and its ridiculousness for being able to carry them across the finish line anyway with sub-optimal builds?

I'm gonna be dead honest.

I still gave Zach Tyree the benefit of doubt in his match against belcher, but after seeing him randomly discarting a LED on game 1 at the finals and throw the game away that was it. After that I was pulling for the Maverick guy. I even felt embarassed ffs...

I was in a good mood before I decided to watch the finals of Tampa:frown:.His playing "skills" and 2nd place just proves that Dredge is a deck to beat even it's piloted in drunk monkey style.

He definitely made a lot of mistakes but, did anyone every think of his nerves? His game versus Belcher I was worried he was going shake himself unconscious. HELL! Until the finals games were pretty much wrapped up his hands shook well enough for me to notice (I'm not the most observant person). Did it ever occur to anyone commenting on his misplays that maybe he's a champ off camera but pretty much shuts down on camera? Did it ever occur to you that after X number of hours, he may be tired, hungry, or even irritated by something else?

The win vs Belcher on the draw was a random fluke. That deck goes off on Turn 1 more than any other deck in the format. I think it's estimated to have a turn 1 win capable something like 65% of the time... don't quote me on that. Without going first and no real way to stop it T1 on the draw, the odds were stacked against him and he won. I don't care how he did it. Do you tell the control player that they screwed up because the won at 5? No, they won.

With the current amount of newer legacy players, and this decks number of pilots, to think that a couple of players making mistakes against some of the not so popularly played decks (Yes, this deck is considered fringe), is the trend of magic in the US is insane. That's like me claiming good sportsmanship and proper reasoning skills aren't available outside the US only from the basis of the 5ish of you that have partaken in this conversation. Quit blaming him on WINNING MONEY and Build your deck. Heck, You may be doing something wrong.

On him making T8 (2nd), Congrats. Even if all of his opponents punted, GOOD JOB. If he reads this, Don't let them get to you. This is a game. This is not nuclear science (apparently THIS IS SPARTA). You don't have to be exact (except with dredge). You get use to the camera over time (If the other dredge players don't toss you off a cliff at birth).

Now I understand why they say I'm a good Dredge pilot -.-

Anyway, got some time to test the LED version (same list as post #3461) - it's explosive as hell, but... I'm a long time LED-Less player so I'm not experienced with this variant and find myself boarding out LED and Breakthrough almost every game, and I really miss Tireless Tribe. Casting Faithless Looting as a first turn discard outlet can leave you cold to a Faerie Macabre, whereas Tribe can get another dredger to the bin before the draw step (while also attacking or blocking like a champ).

P.S. - I noticed mulligans get nastier with the LED build - guess I'll come back to my fellow 16/16 Golgari Grave-Trolls.

I think everything has been said about his plays, so I'm not going to talk about that any further.

However, something that also strikes me is that apparently NO single Dredge player on SCG Opens really keeps track of their graveyard order properly. I don't remember if he did it in the finals, but earlier when he was featured during the swiss, he just spread out the whole graveyard on the table, not paying attention to his grave order and in a way that neither player was able to track what's in there and what's not.

I do not understand how this is allowed to happen in such a prestigious tournament, especially at the feature table where hundreds of people are watching and where they even have a table judge. Usually the judges interfere immediately if something goes against the rules, but somehow graveyard order doesn't seem to matter.

The most common argument seems to be "well, yeah, it doesn't matter anyway", which is just untrue. Nether Shadow is more than viable in Dredge decks for instance.

Practically, it also doesn't matter if you don't shuffle sour library after activating a Fetchland and getting the bottom card of your deck without looking at any other cards in there. It's still entirely unknown and random, but the rules tell you to shuffle, so you do. I don't quite understand it.

I think it is because by legacy's very nature, people are more friendly and laidback on technicallity rules. (more mature players). But yes, if you wanted to get some cheap, unearned wins, you could prolly have your go at it.

I think if both lists don't care about graveyard order, I honestly don't think it should matter. Also if you seperated the relevant from the irrelevant cards in the yard, dredge turns go alot faster and both players have a much better idea on what is going on.

Perhaps if both players agreed on it and revealed that they both have no cards where the order matters (since lying isnt allowed)...

I often dream of the day when order no longer matters in legacy and cards where order does matter get errated.

I'm going to loan this deck to a friend at the next SCG open and I don't want him to embarrass himself so i wanted to ask a few questions.

Narcomoeba is a triggered ability correct? I always thought it was but wanted to be sure since I'm trying to teach my friend how to play this and double checked by asking the judge at my local card shop. He said it was a replacement effect.

Watching the SCG coverage I see people putting narcomoeba into play when it's dredged but is the correct action when a narcomoeba is revealed by dredging is to point out the trigger, finish the dredge or spell, then put the narcomoeba(s) triggers on the stack?

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Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro

I'm going to loan this deck to a friend at the next SCG open and I don't want him to embarrass himself so i wanted to ask a few questions.

Narcomoeba is a triggered ability correct? I always thought it was but wanted to be sure since I'm trying to teach my friend how to play this and double checked by asking the judge at my local card shop. He said it was a replacement effect.

Watching the SCG coverage I see people putting narcomoeba into play when it's dredged but is the correct action when a narcomoeba is revealed by dredging is to point out the trigger, finish the dredge or spell, then put the narcomoeba(s) triggers on the stack?

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It is a triggered ability. Your opponent can respond with graveyard removal to prevent Narcomoeba from entering play.

Yep, it's a trigger. I'm usually less generous to my opponent and keep my graveyard in a pile, rather than spread out. This way, any time I dredge a Narco, I'll turn it sideways and leave it on the pile to remind myself of its trigger.

A general rule: if the card's text starts "When..." or "Whenever...", you're dealing with a trigger.

One of the first few things I learned about playing Dredge is how to keep the order of my graveyard while also being able to make a distinction between the relevant and irrelevant cards in it. I actually dislike it whenever my opponent tries to "rearrange" it without asking for my permission.

At the end of the day, rules are only as good as the people that enforce them. If players in a tournament become spoiled by not following these rules at all times, then I believe that it's really the judges that are at fault for not enforcing these rules and creating a culture that disregards them.

As for Zach Tyree's recent placement in the Top 8, I would say that, amidst all of the excuses that we make for why he does or doesn't deserve to win, the fact is that he did win. However he did it, whether by being lucky, piloting a deck that is powerful enough to generate wins even with sub-optimal builds, or even by accidentally stumbling into the correct plays, no one can contest that he placed 2nd and bested other players that may or may not have been more competent. This is to his credit, and he deserves to be congratulated for placing well, even if he did have some unforgivable misplays. For everyone else that were wise enough to see the misplays themselves, good for you - it will be best to apply that wisdom and win a tournament rather than be a sour grape over someone else's victory.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

He definitely made a lot of mistakes but, did anyone every think of his nerves? His game versus Belcher I was worried he was going shake himself unconscious. HELL! Until the finals games were pretty much wrapped up his hands shook well enough for me to notice (I'm not the most observant person). Did it ever occur to anyone commenting on his misplays that maybe he's a champ off camera but pretty much shuts down on camera? Did it ever occur to you that after X number of hours, he may be tired, hungry, or even irritated by something else?

The win vs Belcher on the draw was a random fluke. That deck goes off on Turn 1 more than any other deck in the format. I think it's estimated to have a turn 1 win capable something like 65% of the time... don't quote me on that. Without going first and no real way to stop it T1 on the draw, the odds were stacked against him and he won. I don't care how he did it. Do you tell the control player that they screwed up because the won at 5? No, they won.

With the current amount of newer legacy players, and this decks number of pilots, to think that a couple of players making mistakes against some of the not so popularly played decks (Yes, this deck is considered fringe), is the trend of magic in the US is insane. That's like me claiming good sportsmanship and proper reasoning skills aren't available outside the US only from the basis of the 5ish of you that have partaken in this conversation. Quit blaming him on WINNING MONEY and Build your deck. Heck, You may be doing something wrong.

On him making T8 (2nd), Congrats. Even if all of his opponents punted, GOOD JOB. If he reads this, Don't let them get to you. This is a game. This is not nuclear science (apparently THIS IS SPARTA). You don't have to be exact (except with dredge). You get use to the camera over time (If the other dredge players don't toss you off a cliff at birth).

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I am sorry, my good Sir, you are in the wrong forum. This is a competitive forum(at least this part of it)and well, being competitive does not end with the deck choice(terrible list btw, but better than prosaks imo), it's the plays, too. Now a 14 year old mentally handicapped can play dredge better than him( I know such a person)without looking at the deck than MAYBE, just maybe we are right and he is a terrible pilot. If you cannot cope with the camera it is not our fault. With the right mindset, maybe he would not have punted so hard.
Anyways, further regarding your post, it's bs. Since this is( as already mentionend) a competitive forum, you cannot help but wonder that you find the ranting surprising.And btw, yes you HAVE to be exact. Otherwise, don't play tournaments that have REL competitive.

And also, GTFO. If you have nothing more to do than talk a bunch of smart ass bullshit and insult those people who really have done much for this archetype or really try to improve their dredge game, just because we are pointing out some "unforgivable mistakes" (quote Jares), GTFO this thread.


@Lt. Quattro
The way you describe it is right. If you, say dredge 4x 6 from a Breakthrough, and you dredge into a moeba,you point out the trigger and place it on the stack after you finished resolving your spell, in this case Breakthrough. Only then your opponent can respond to it. Be careful about this, since you are technically cheating if you out Narcs into play right away.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Do you tell the control player that they screwed up because the won at 5? No, they won.

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Actually, you should do it. Exspecially if it's a friend of yours. If you don't you don't give him a chance to improve.

I am not sure sour grapes would be the best way to descrribe the reaction. He didn't win when the deck should have won (it gave him the cards), and as members of a Dredge board we were no doubt cheering for a representative of the deck only to be let down by poor play when on camera.

Then there are those of us that are flabbergasted by another dredge deck doing well while being suboptimal in MD design while also sporting a weak sideboard vs hate.

Gaming gods be a trollin'