I wonder where did Nicklas go to :tongue:
Very interested in this experience at GP Prague - what went well and what didnt and moving forward any changes to the decklist he played.
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I wonder where did Nicklas go to :tongue:
Very interested in this experience at GP Prague - what went well and what didnt and moving forward any changes to the decklist he played.
Played a side event at brazil GP today (got to meet Mark Tedin and RK Post yay!) and went 3-1.
Piloted Niklas deck from Frankfurt, with the combo in the side, plus Chandra.
Matches were Grixis Delver (win), Affinity (Loss, dude hit me for 15 damage turn 3 in one of the games), Reanimator (win) and Jund (win).
I kinda think the combo place should be maindeck right now, because in some matches I wanted to bring the big ol 20/20 in action for a lack of things to do, like I had stalled the game vs reanimator at 5 hp, with him attacking with a Ashen Rider, and all I could do was punishing fire him down, with the knight standing there and getting me lands for additional P.Fires. Sure, the match was pretty much won for me at that point but I feel like it surely dragged long enough for him to find a comeback (which he didnt).
I might go to the bigger event tomorrow, if I can wake up early enough! Fun times!
Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)
I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?
Not really the best deck to play on that meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3boy316
Infect is a hard mu if the player is good;
junk deathblade might be good or bad, depending on the build;
burn is just bad;
manaless dredge is pretty average IMO.
The best matchup you list would be against yourself.
You can adapt the deck to that meta and it gets just fine, playing the shaman, playing a 2 thalia/2canonist sb for the infect and burn MU.
Quick tournament report from Eternal Extravaganza 4 and some thoughts.
Background: I've been playing Aggro Loam as my main deck since SCG DC in 2015 with a 9 month break somewhere in between. Before that, I alternated between RUG Lands and Jund Depths.
Decklist (61):
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Crop Rotation
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Slaughter Games
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
I've had the dark depths combo in the main deck for a while now, variously cutting cards like Sylvan Library or Deathrite Shaman to fit it in.
M1: Taylor on Grixis Delver (0-2, 0-1 overall)
G1: My notes are particularly spares here. I lose the draw and he opens up with a quick delver. I play a land, a mox, and a chalice which he dazes. He then runs out a young pyromancer while I'm just not drawing the correct half of my deck, drawing a knight and some other cards. He has wasteland on the board for the dark depths combo so I can't go for that. Eventually, I draw an abrupt decay but by then, it's too little to late.
SB: -Karakas, -Teeg, -Depths, -Stage, -Library, +2 Thalia, +GCharm, +Pyroclasm, +Garruk Relentless
G2: He draws multiple deathrite shamans and young pyromancers, I draw knights and a deathrite shaman. He bolts the shaman and goes wide. Again, no removal was drawn. I can't recall what my opening hand was but my notes show me mulling to 5 and keeping.
Firstly, Grixis Delver can't be a positive matchup. I feel like I always lose to this deck. Secondly, boarding in StP is amazing in this matchup and is definitely something I should have done.
M2: Elton on R Imperial Painter (1-1-1, 0-1-1 overall)
G1: I win the die roll and open up on fetch->forest+mox+chalice. He goes city of traitors, simian spirit guide, blood moon. I play a basic mountain, drop a knight, and we're off to the races. Teeg joins the onslaught as Chalice locks him out of the combo. He drops an ensnaring bridge, but I play my sandbagged abrupt decay and he dies to the awesome power of a 3/3 knight and a punishing fire for lethal.
SB: -2 Lili, -1 Confidant, -2 Life from the Loam, -Gaddock Teeg, -Dark Depths, -Karakas, +2 Thalia, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Garruk Relentless, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Golgari Charm. The Stage stays in just in case I can copy a basic forest or a basic plains.
G2: This match took over 40 minutes. As a RUG Lands player, I know that if I can win the first game against a bad matchup, I can maybe durdle long enough to tie game 2. No deck can durdle like RUG Lands (Smokestack+Wasteland, oh yeah!). My line of play here is prolong the inevitable, or maybe even win. He goes first and drops a Divining Top. I play a Chalice off of a Mox and a fetched Forest. His blood moon is a few too many turns late, by which point I have lands in my graveyard, an active Deathrite, and a Thespian's Stage copying the basic Forest. He has an Ensnaring Bridge, a Painter, and a Blood Moon. I drop a Thalia in play and we play mexican standoff for a few turns. My hand consists of a few lands which I won't play, a Chalice, and a Lili which costs approximately infinite mana right now. Eventually, I draw an Abrupt Decay, Decay the bridge, and get a good hit in. I play my second Chalice so he can't just Smash to Smithereens my Chalice and drop a Grindstone. What I didn't expect was a Ratchet Bomb which blew up all of my moxen and Chalices. I play Garruk Relentless, get in a fight with Painter, and continue to durdle. He plays a Grindstone he draws off of the top and activates it. I mill about 20 cards and eventually, about 10 turns later, lose to decking myself. There are 3 minutes left on the clock.
G3: We're going to time but I'm fighting hard regardless. Chalice, Forest, a GSZ'd Deathrite Shaman, and fightin' Garruk all come down. He Blood Moons me, recruits a Simian Spirit Guide, and plays it in face-up defense mode. Garruk has made some 1/1 deathtouch tokens as an Ensaring Bridge drops and the 5th turn of turns is called.
M3: Andy on R Goblins (2-0, 1-1-1 overall)
G1: Andy is new to legacy, he explains, and borrowed his friends' deck. I say that's okay, we're nearing the fun portion of the tournament where points don't matter and everyone's a winner. After winning the die roll, he opens up on Cavern into Lackey. I open up into Mox, Wasteland, Punishing Fire. He has no turn 2 play. I Wasteland his Cavern, play a Chalice off of another land, and that about sums it up. A Dark Confidant and a Dryad Arbor deal 20 points of damage as Wastelands take his mana base apart and Chalice prevents him from ever playing another spell.
SB: -Karakas, -Liliana of the Veil, -Teeg, -Sylvan Library, -Scavenging Ooze, -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, +Containment Priest, +2 Thalia, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Pyroclasm
G2: He fetches a mountain and passes the turn. I play a fetchland. He plays something a port and a top-decked lackey. I swords his Lackey in response. On my turn, I play Mox, Wasteland, a top-decked Chalice, and Wasteland his port. He never gets to play another spell for the rest of the game as a Clegane-sized Knight slams into him.
M4: Greg on Tin Fins (2-0, 2-1-1 overall)
G1: I curve out into a T1 Abrupt Decay for a Chrome Mox, T2 Wasteland+Gaddock Teeg, T3 Dark Confidant+Dryad Arbor. He Chrome Mox'd a burning wish for a faithless looting pitching a Griselbrand, cantripped a bit, and animates the Griselbrand. I respond by putting Knight into play. He attacks, taking me down to 9. My Knight is a 7/7 at this point and is ready to fetch up a Maze of Ith for his puny demon. That chance never comes. He tries comboing off. Always, always, always make them complete the combo. He draws is entire deck dancing between 8 and 40 life before he tries Snuffing out my Knight of the Reliquary. I point to my Gaddock Teeg, he thinks and looks at his 40 card hand, then scoops.
SB: -Dryad Arbor, -3 Punishing Fire, -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, -Knight, -2 Loam, +2 Thoughtseize, +Slaughter Games, +2 Thalia, +Crop Rotation, +Bog, +Containment Priest, +Reclamation Sage
G2: T1 Thalia, T2 Chalice+Wasteland, T3 Decay for Chrome Mox, T4 Confidant. Confidant deals 8 damage to both me and him. I've never had problems with Renaimator or Tin Fins in general. This seems like a hideously positive matchup for Aggro Loam.
M5: Matt on Esper Cards I Own (2-1, 3-1-1 overall)
I didn't take notes on this match since it took so long to complete.
G1: I remember that Chalice won me the game and Confidant killed almost half of my life total.
SB: No idea, but I'd probably get Thalias, Garruk, Reclamation Sage, Thoughtseize and take out Scooze, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Dryad Arbor, Life from the Loam, and maybe some other cards.
G2: He dropped a Jace+Lili.
G3: Wastelands, Chalices, and creatures knocked him out.
M6: Michael on Death and Taxes (1-0, 4-1-1 overall)
G1: Michael received a game loss for some reason and arrived about 20 minutes late. We got a 10 minute game extension. He won the chance to play first because of the one-sided game loss and opens up on a mother of runes. I play Mox, basic Forest, Punishing Fire. He drops a Stoneforge fetching a Sword of Fire and Ice. I play Grove, return the fire, and punishing fire his stoneforge. He plays a port, drops his sword, and I decay it. He plays Karakas and a Mangara. I Wasteland Karakas, Punishing Fire the Condor, and drop a Chalice and a Confidant. The writing is on the wall as I bury him card advantage and blank the removal in his hand.
M7: Kosmo on BUG Food Chain (2-1, 5-1-1 overall)
So at this point, I've fought my way back up to somewhere near the top tables. I need to win 2 of the next 3 matches to get some cash.
G1: I Chalice him, remove his Deathrite, and do my best to prevent him from ever getting to 4 mana. Punishing Fire does tremendous work here in a close game 1. Eventually, Liliana comes down and locks him out of effectively casting Griffins forever. Deathrite Shamans and Baleful Strixes are locked out due to Punishing Fire.
SB: -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, -Life from the Loam, -Scavenging Ooze, -Karakas, -Teeg, +2 Thoughtseize, +Pyroclasm, +Golgari Charm, +Reclamation Sage, +Slaughter Games
G2: I mull to 5 and he crushes me. I remember attacking with a Dark Confidant and he played Ambush Viper. Actual, factual Ambush Viper. Apparently, it's been amazing for him all day.
G3: He mulls to 5, goes Misty fetching an Underground Sea into a Deathrite Shaman. I Wasteland his Underground Sea and Punishing Fire his deathrite shaman. He never sees another land and dies permanentless.
M8: Anuraag on Miracles (0-2, 5-2-1 overall)
G1: I lose the die roll and grab some cards. My opening 7 is as follows: Dryad Arbor, Grove of the Burnwillows, Chalice, Dark Confidant, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil. Knight of the Reliquary. I choose to mull the hand but now I'm not so sure. I know that Anuraag is on Miracles from seeing a tournament report or two of his. He probably won't Swords my T1 Dryad Arbor and has around a 40% chance of having Force of Will on turn 2. I can turn 2 Chalice and only need to draw a single black source in the next 3 turns to make this hand great. Each turn gives me a ~30% chance of drawing a black source, so I have something like a 95% chance of turning this hand into something pretty fantastic. Instead I mull to 5 and do nothing as a Jace ticks up and empties my library.
SB: -2 Life from the Loam, -2 Mox Diamond, -Wasteland, -Dryad Arbor, -Dark Depths, -Scavenging Ooze, +2 Thalia, +2 Thoughtseize, +Golgari Charm, +Pyroclasm, +Garruk, +Reclamation Sage (I should have also added in Slaughter Games)
G2: I again mull down to 6, get my turn 1 Sylvan forced, and I'm never really in the game. I need more practice against Miracles, generally speaking, and I'm not at all sure that my sideboarding plan was correct.
M9: Rog on Grixis Delver (0-2, 5-3-1 overall)
I don't have any notes from here and don't remember anything because of how tired and miserable I was. The room was closing in on 100F from the teeming horde of magic players and the malfunctioning AC.
Thoughts/changes:
- Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage were hot garbage. There are so few matches where the straight wasteland lock isn't just better. I mulliganed a non-negligable number of times because of these cards where a basic Swamp or Barren Moor would have been worlds better. I will definitely be cutting these, though I'll need another edge in the Eldrazi matchup to replace them. If I get a basic swamp, I think removing a Windswept Heath for a Bloodstained Mire is a good swap.
- I also don't like the second Scrubland and would probably prefer Badlands, although with a basic Swamp, I'd likely grab a Plateau.
- In the sideboard, I never got a chance to see Crop Rotation or Bojuka Bog. Leyline of the Void seems much more impactful.
- I feel like I need help in the Delver matchup and perhaps Kolaghan's Command could be a good addition that also helps in grindy matchups like Shardless BUG and artifact-heavy decks like Eldrazi. It seems good on paper, as does Maelstrom Pulse.
- Cutting Deathrite Shaman is a huge mistake. Against Delver, getting a mana advantage is huge and Deathrite is invaluable here. Deathrite fixes mana, counters opposing Deathrites, and provides life gain until our powerful high-mana cards can go online. He's an additional turn one and turn two play (through GSZ) that helps our curve out and keeps us running as mana-efficiently as possible.
- Mono-red imperial painter should really run a singleton Goblin Settler somewhere in the main 60.
- A singleton Ghost Quarter would be nice. It gives us a way to cut Miracles off of double white for Entreat and stops the random singleton/two-of basics that so many decks run. I could see cutting something for it, either Wasteland or some other land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrinshpon
- DD+Stage are weird indeed, but I believe the free wins they provide are enough reason to maintain them. It also makes your mu againsts Lands/eldrazi/elves/combo a lot better
- 10000% agreed on that, Leylines are way more reliable and powerful.
- The problem with Kolaghans is the same problem with pulse, it is awful against daze so it is not impactful enough in the sideboard. I think you severely oversideboarded(the wrong cards also). I would bring the 4 swords and pyroclasm for Teeg and 3 Lilianas. Lilis are bad cause pyromancer and teeg does nothing. Against delver you cannot take lands out or you might get manascrewed and DD+Stage is awesome when he goes wide. We can also easily play around Submerge.
- No knowledge on the MU.
- I have been thinking on changing my approach in the matchup but running more colorless lands is not in my books. A singleton manland can help in the mu but since the addition of mentor, the MU got tough.
Just my opinion, hope it helps :smile:
Let me preface this report with the fact that I had a semi hard stop at 6PM due to family obligations. Players with spouses and kids will know exactly what I’m talking about. I decided to play Aggro Loam for the Quest for Power #8 (Quest Four Workshops) at MTGFirst in Glen Burnie. I have done considerably well since picking up the deck back in Feb so why change a good thing. I played my list from SCG Baltimore http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=100766 adding a 61st card in a second Sylvan Library. The deck is so tight and after seeing Chris Wessel’s top 16 with having one less Lili and an added DRS I thought let’s give it a go with 61. My sideboard is the same from the above link except a Slaughter Games in for Choke. Choke came out after seeing how useless it was. I usually only play it when I’m ahead and sometimes when not ahead it doesn’t win you the game. S.Games also gives you an out to OmniTell if you can get it off before they do. This will probably change as I feel I am behind the times with my sideboard. While I’m still not sold on the Crop Rotation/Bojuka Bog for my Leylines I am partially sold on needing some STP’s. The few times I faced Eldrazi I have defeated it, but it can only help the matchup. So now on to the matches:
Round 1 – Rudy B – playing Kory’s version of the Mirror
Game 1 – I win the die roll and setup a turn one Bob off Diamond with Wasteland and Loam still in hand. He goes for a turn 1 Bayou, GSZ, Dryad. I don’t know what his hand is, but going for non-basic here is pretty bad. If I have wasteland/Loam, which I do, I can hinder him to two mana for the entire game. I end up running my bob into him to see what he does. He blocks which is mistake number 2. Yes, Bob is bad on the opposite side as card advantage wins this game, but if I have a wasteland I restart his board with nothing and me at two lands. I follow my play up with a waste on his Bayou then into a Loam and he concedes.
SB – Out 4 Chalice, Dark Depths – In Garruk, 3 Leyline, Maelstrom Pulse
Game 2 – He gets an early start with Leyline and Diamond into Bob. I can’t keep up and slowly die to card advantage and not being able to Loam.
Game 3 – I don’t have a fast start, but do have turn 0 Leyline. He gets an early Bob, which later dies, and eventually a library. I cannot keep up even though I am punishing fire his 2/2 Knights. I eventually die to his Arlann (Don’t think this card is good for the deck, but Kory likes it)
0-1
Round 2 – Jordan playing TES
I have known Jordan for a while and we talk about our lives/wives/kids while shuffling. I believe I won the die roll.
Game 1 – I keep a decent starting hand with a turn 1 bob. He proceeds to make 12 goblins and pass. I proceed to revealing a land off bob into playing land and knight. He attacks for 12 making the goblins go to 10 and my life and bob taking one on the chin. I play depths and pass. He sighs stating “You had to draw it.” I grin happily. He attacks dropping me to 1 and I make a Laige and end the game.
SB – Out Scooze, 3 P.Fire, Maze, Karakas- In Revoker, 3 Leyline, 2 Thalia
Game 2 – I have a slow hand that he punishes by making 12 goblins on turn 3. I get a Knight in play that he bounces next turn off a top deck Tutor for Chain of V.
Game 3 – I have a slow start again, but with a turn 2 Bob and I think I had turn 0 leyline. He does not combo off before I rip a Thalia followed by double CoTV.
1-1
Round 3 – Micah – Mirror
Game 1 – I win the die roll and play Scrubland go. I see Diamond into CotV turn 1. I am thrilled as I know what I’m playing against and his turn 1 play does nothing. He sees me play Badlands Bob. He figures out it is the mirror when my bob flips library or something I can’t remember. He eventually loses to my CardA and Knights.
SB – Same as Rd 1
Game 2 – He have a back and fourth game, but he is under a turn 0 Leyline and I am not. There is a crucial point in the game where he has Stage/Depths active Knight and I have active Knight and wasteland. I had several possibilities at my disposal like wasting his Stage and in response to him activating it knighting for another waste to blow up his DD. I end up passing the turn in which he knighted for a waste. A fair move it I didn’t have my own knight. He ends up trying to waste my waste which I go for his DD. He activates in response. I let it happen. After all said and done I knight up Karakas and bounce the token. He realizes his critical play error. Sorry Micah, but hey you got into the tourney report:smile:
2-1
Round 4 – Tommy – Playing ANT
Game 1 – He wins the die roll and I think he probes me. I play a first turn CotV on 1. He ends up going for it the turn after, but miscalculates his graveyard size and his CR’s only make 3 mana instead of 5. He ends up double duressing me which get countered by CotV. I blow up his LED at end of turn with Abrupt Decay. Knight joins the party and goes the distance.
SB – Same as Round 2
Game 2 – I think I had a slow hand that ended up losing to 12 goblins on turn 2.
Game 3 – I can’t remember what happened here. I think Leyline, Thalia, Teeg.
3-1
So now I have played 4 rounds and only faced 2 different decks
Round 5 – Zach – Infect
Game 1 – I mop it up pretty quick with an early grove/fire, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, Loam.
SB – Out Teeg, Scooze, Karakas, ? – In Garruk, Pulse, 2 Deluge
Zach mentions after game 1 about how he was trying to dodge this matchup all day.
Game 2 – I take over quick once again with Lili, Decay, Bob. He can’t keep up with my removal.
4-1
Round 6 – Ralph – Shardless
Ralph and I know each other from the local scene
Game 1 – I think I won the die roll and I get an early Library. I keep Ralph off non basics with loam waste recursion. We trade Lili’s and Decays back and forth. My CotV on 0 negates his Vision coming off the stack. I eventually beat him with Knights.
SB – Out 3 CotV, karakas, Teeg – In pulse, Garruk, 2 Deluge, Revoker - I Think, my notes are at home
Game 2 – This game is long and grindy with each player throwing back removal. I keep him off DRS with Punishing fire, but an early removal of my DD proves to be problematic as I can’t close the game early enough. I kill his Library and his board with Lili/pfire. I end up sticking my own Library and munch at my life to stay in the game after he came off a resolved vision. I clear the board once again with removal and drop Garruk. Playing so poorly with missing activations I get the game in turns. His friend Andrew is watching the final parts of the game and he ends up being my next opponent.
5-1
So standings come out and I have been here before, last Power event actually and had to play against a friend that ended up beating me to take my spot. Standings show most 15 pointers have to play with the exception of 3rd and 4th. Sitting in 10th I get ready for the last round.
Round 7 – Andrew playing ANT
He has an advantage as he knows what I’m playing. I also check the clock and see that my time here is almost up. Before sitting down I ask Andrew if he would like to prize split since one of us will make it and the other will not. He agrees and we play it out
Game 1 – I win the roll and proceed to get rolled as he Tendrils me on turn 2. My hand was good in the dark, but definitely not good enough for this matchup
SB – Same as above
Game 2 – I get a monster starter which he sees off his probe. I drop a CotV for 0 and 1. I follow up with Thalia and Bob.
Game 3 – I keep a decent hand and believe I have a turn 0 leyline. He doesn’t have the nuts and I can develop my board and GSZ for a turn 3 Teeg. This holds him off long enough for Thalia and Lili to join the party and he does to creatures.
(6-1)
5-2 – I end up conceding the match as I needed to leave. Top 8 end up splitting so not a bad way to end the day. I also made top 16 even with my concession :smile:
Congrats on the finish.
Word of advice tho: if your hand is more than 4 cards and is slow, your chances to win against TES almost always increase if you mulligan. The deck takes a while to beat your first piece of interaction (barring nut draws), so having one in your opening hand and into play on turn 1 usually wins you the game. Once we have a piece of interaction, they are playing catchup while while the majority of our cards become live. This is also slightly true for ANT.
Yesterday I went 1-1-1 at my LGS playing against Monoblack Storm (2-1), MUD Stax(1-1-1) and Jund(1-2).
I won 2 games with DD/Stage and I think if you play responsibly it is a out of prison free card sometimes while the Depths may ruin some hands. stage itself is one of the best lands there are as it can randomly be MAze#2, Wasteland#5, a basic Land, ...
-> Would play
The Swords in the sideboard are great i feel. A lot of mediocre matchups become better/great (e.g. Infect, DnT)
-> Would play
The Crop Rotations are IMHO not good as against the decks you need grave hate it is crucial the hate comes early. Bojuka Bog is not good there and while I can see the appeal of another tutor for the DD/Stage combo that too becomes way weaker against e.g. Reanimator when they already have a Griselbrand in the grave.
-> Would not play and keep the Leylines
Haha, yeah, I won't make that mistake again! Was nice meeting you none the less.Quote:
Originally Posted by nditiz1
Hi,
just to have also different opinions... what do you think of the new Liliana in the deck?
http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/l...helasthope.jpg
+1 seems not bad as with -2/-1 you can kill a lot of things... additionally, I have always found that dredging creatures (expecially KotR) can create situations you cannot recover and -2 might help....
I'm not saying it is stronger that the Veil version, but maybe it might worth to give it a try...
The "+1" is ok and -2 Power helps a lot in all situations besides killing the creature, but the "-2" is quite bad as we play little creatures and thus often will not even net you cards while the -2 on the old Liliana was always card parity and also was able to deal with Griselbrand, Emrakul and Marit Lage.Quote:
Originally Posted by monaco.errante
The Ultimate is ok and will win against things like Miracles (it is similar to Garruk Relentless) but it will not bring you back if you are behind, which the old Liliana did wonderfully (all abilities). Also the old Liliana's +1 fit wonderfully into a deck with LftL and Punishig Fires.
Actually, new Lili in here might not be too bad. Probably not better than Veil overall.
I don't thinks she's a perfect fit, but she does has some decency about her.
On paper to me, she plays the best when she's surrounded by creatures that can defend her, since in Legacy her +1 defense ability isn't really that great. -2/-1 doesn't really kill anything that you would worry about anyway. Sure she can ping the rare unflipped Delver, Thalia, or Strix, but for actively played creatures in major decks that's about it.
So, the +1 doesn't really fit that great here. Veil's +1 is also more synergistic because we can discard more crap than the opponent, and it puts the screws on an opponent much more than soft removal. Aggro loam currently is a leaner hellbent midrange deck that doesn't need to hold anything.
The -2 plays pretty well here. It can dredge some additional lands or Loams, and actually synergizes with the deck's built-in feature of milling kill conditions. Being able to recur your very limited yet high impact creatures that died to removal - Bob and Knight - can't be overlooked.
The ultimate itself will eventually win the game against most decks, unlike LotV (blashpemy, I know). Veil does have the great ability to threaten to kill a Jace that's about to ultimate, a very bothersome RIP or Counterbalance, or just Armageddon, but past that it's still up to you to win. Watch some old Kennan Haas Jund Depths playing against a Death and Taxes that survived and might have won through two Lili ultimates simply because he kept RiP. Last Hope can at least win without the graveyard or casting spells.
I think she's best in a Goyf Loam Rock deck, where her +1 can muddy combat math in your favor yet still rely on an army for defense and her -2 can get further high impact creatures. Maybe toss in a Vial and some mass destruction (Damnation) or countermagic that Veil wouldn't let you keep. Fuck it, Vhati-Il Dal too.
I think this deck plays too few creatures overall, but she could see some use. Likely not over Veil. Something to think about though.
She sounds pretty good, IMO, and as claymore pointed out, maybe not as a replacemente, but perhaps as additional removal or by sideboarding. She is better versus miracles than the current lili too due to the ultimate being more powerful too in this case, though the +1 wouldn't help. She probably has to be used in addition to the other.
Unfortunately I can imagine you get too many situations where you'd have both Lilianas in hand and can't use both due to the Legendary rule, and then Veil would make you discard everything anyway. I think you'd have to make a choice or swap them in the board. I think new Lili would be better against the likes of Shardless, which have oodles of Abrupt Decays, rather than Miracles with RIPs, Swords, and Termini.
I've played this list at the past two weeklies; 2-2 in my first and 3-0-1 (ID) in my second. It feels really strong.
Lands (25):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (12):
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
Spells (23):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
The 75 is definitely tailored to the current state of my local metagame: Shardless, Loam, Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles, Death and Taxes, and Storm. I've been trying out Tireless Tracker as my "second Sylvan Library" that doubles as a threat and can be found with Zenith. It's been surprisingly powerful and has won me quite a few games with its size. The synergy with Knight is definitely win-more, but it snowballs a game that is already in your favor.
Most recent weekly matchups:
- Death and Taxes: Won game one off of a pair of big Knights. Second game went long and I struggled to find more threats to fight through his removal, which made me miss the pair of Chalices that I had cut for more density. Got there on the back of Garruk Relentless. (-2 Chalice, -1 Loam, -1 Teeg, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Deluge, +1 Garruk, +1 Pithing Needle) I'm honestly not sure how I should be boarding out in this matchup. Chalice seems bad, but it protects our threats. Maybe I should be cutting some amount of spot removal to fit in the sweepers.
- Storm: Won game one by finding a turn 3 Gaddock Teeg on the play. Won game 2 with the sequence: turn 2 Teeg, turn 3 Waste a Trop to force Decay into Ad Nauseam and follow-up with Chalice. Played a Knight on turn 4 to have him dead in one turn. My opponent found a Hurkyl's but misstepped and fetched the wrong land on his turn 5.
- Bant Cloudpost: Lost game 1 due to not enough Wasteland. Won games 2 and 3 because I had 2+ Wastelands. His list was interesting; I cut my Chalices, a Punishing Fire, and 2 Decay for 3 Plows, 2 Thoughtseize, a Sage, and a Slaughter Games.
Opinions on how I board are appreciated; I love hearing other players' thoughts on sideboarding strategies.
Things that I've considered recently:
- Tabernacle over Pyroclasm. I'm mostly out on this one for price reasons right now, but I am considering testing it.
- Dark Depths combo. I feel like I would want to cut Lilianas from the deck to safely fit this into the manabase.
- Volrath's Stronghold. This seems like a reasonable concession to not being able to fit Dark Depths into the deck while still giving us a recurring threat base with Life from the Loam. I'm mostly down on this right now due to the abundance of Swords to Plowshares in my metagame, though it would help out the Shardless and mirror matchups.
- Stoneforge package, probably 2 Mystic + Batterskull + Jitte. I'm honestly not sure where I would find room for this given how much space it takes up. Maybe cutting the sweepers?
Hi DaGarver,
There has been some good discussion about Tabernacle, DD Combo, and Volrath's Stronghold in the last 10 or so pages here, so it is probably worth going back and rereading that.
I played with that SFM package during the Treasure Cruise era instead of the Dark Confidants. The best deck in the format was an aggro deck, and the SFM package helped us stabilize against 1/1 Elementals. These days I don't think doing this would be a good meta call, and the package is way too large to cut anything else for it.
It looks like the only deck that Slaughter Games rally shines against in your meta is Storm, which is a fine matchup without it, so I would be tempted to cut it for something better.
I'm personally a big fan of Marit Lage over Lili, and given your other mana-intensive cards (Tireless Tracker, Pulse) I think the change of lowering the curve and upping the mana source(s) would be good for you
Word on the street is that Thalia Heretic is very good, especially when you can force her out early, and could be strong in a deck that utilizes Loam and Wastelands. I don't know where to put her aside from either Liliana or Dark Confidant. Thoughts?
My initial thought is that it isn't a great fit. She is pretty dead later in the late game, shifts the gameplan a lot, etc. That being said, it doesn't make sense to evaluate these kinds of cards without testing. So I'm looking forward to being wrong :p
My big concern is not being able to find her with GSZ. My guess is that she's about as good as Kolaghan's Command, but isn't quite worth cutting one of the core cards for.
In other news, I'm off of Bog, Stage, Depths, and Crop Rotation. I missed Badlands more than I expected, and definitely missed the second Sylvan Library.