[Deck] Elves Combo

Natural Order is for winning with the fewest resources possible. It gives you another spell that you can just topdeck and steal the game with.

And yes, if we are discussing Glimpse-combo turns where crazy shiz happens, then we can probably run any wincon we like. And if we can do anything we like, then of course Emrakul will be better than whatever else you could run.

Any build that runs Priest *and* Archdruid is definitely a fringe build that should be discussed as such. And you can play around getting your Hoof countered by...perhaps playing a second Hoof! Bazinga! I'll say that I've never been in a position where my Hoof got countered and next turn my board is wiped. Perhaps that guy just had your number or you misplayed. It's impossible to say without having seen the game.

Primer status - 7/10 in progress. Been a little busy with IRL stuff this week. It's coming!

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Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd

Not necessarily, if they know you're running Hoof as your wincon. BUG for example can let you draw your deck, counter Hoof, take their turn, and drop Pernicious Deed or Perish or something. You lose. I've done this. Emrakul gives no such outs. plus since my list is so much better at producing mana, what with Priests and Archdruids, I often just play Emrakul without comboing and win.

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Don't forget that Emrakul can be Stifled and than also can die on Supreme Verdict. Hoof just does everything what Emrakul does but it's cheaper and tutorable. Really, nowdays there is no reason to play Emrakul over Hoof.

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Originally Posted by Tangente

Don't forget that Emrakul can be Stifled and than also can die on Supreme Verdict. Hoof just does everything what Emrakul does but it's cheaper and tutorable. Really, nowdays there is no reason to play Emrakul over Hoof.

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This doesn't make sense. Hoof can be Stifled as well.

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Originally Posted by Koby

This doesn't make sense. Hoof can be Stifled as well.

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".Ix" illustrates you can play around counterspells with NO/Hoof. So what other advantages does Emrakul have over Hoof? Both can be stifled and killed with mass removal. Hoof is two-times cheaper and tutorable. Emrakul is "only" immune to STP. Th3 w1z4rd's argument was about situation where opponent knows what I'm playing, neutralizes that threat and then plays mass removal. And Emrakul gives you not a big advantage in this kind of scenario.

Now while I do run Hoof, the argument that Emrakul offers no bid advantage in the given scenario is an unfair calling. I for one think an extra turn is a fairly large advantage.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

How is Vengevine even comparable in power to NO? You pay 4 for a 4/3 that is undiscardable, uncounterable and unkillable outside of white removal or active Deathrites - or - you pay 4 and win if you already have an established board position. Seems pretty unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Tangente

".Ix" illustrates you can play around counterspells with NO/Hoof. So what other advantages does Emrakul have over Hoof? Both can be stifled and killed with mass removal. Hoof is two-times cheaper and tutorable. Emrakul is "only" immune to STP. Th3 w1z4rd's argument was about situation where opponent knows what I'm playing, neutralizes that threat and then plays mass removal. And Emrakul gives you not a big advantage in this kind of scenario.

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Energy Field
Release the Ants
Glacial Chasm
Solitary Confinement
Grindstone
Show and Tell
Moat
Brainfreeze
Fog
Perish

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

Energy Field
Release the Ants
Glacial Chasm
Solitary Confinement
Grindstone
Show and Tell
Moat
Brainfreeze
Fog
Perish

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Bingo. There are plenty of Moats floating around my local area, and a decent number of S&T strategies. While I don't necessarily plan on putting Emrakul into play via opponent's S&T, the 11% chance that it would happen (odds of drawing a 1 of in your opening 7 cards) is not to be marginalized. It also allows the deck to expend much more resources on a Glimpse turn in order to dig deeper. I understand Emrakul is an unpopular choice, and that Natural Order provides an easy-out to playing this deck; but I don't think either is needed. Elves can perform just fine without Natural Order.

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How is Vengevine even comparable in power to NO? You pay 4 for a 4/3 that is undiscardable, uncounterable and unkillable outside of white removal or active Deathrites - or - you pay 4 and win if you already have an established board position.

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Seriously - you think Vengevine is better than Natural Order? Really? Give me a break, man. Progenitus doesn't require a board position, which you have access to for a majority of your games. And like you said, Swords and Deathrite (you never see those in legacy...) beat your 4 for 4/3 vegetable.

And wouldn't you guys rather just use Deathrite multiple times each turn, rather than add Emrakul, to play around Moat? If that's the main reason for adding him, that seems like a sideboard card to me. Moat is very, very rare in a large tournament.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Seriously - you think Vengevine is better than Natural Order? Really? Give me a break, man. Progenitus doesn't require a board position, which you have access to for a majority of your games. And like you said, Swords and Deathrite (you never see those in legacy...) beat your 4 for 4/3 vegetable.

And wouldn't you guys rather just use Deathrite multiple times each turn, rather than add Emrakul, to play around Moat? If that's the main reason for adding him, that seems like a sideboard card to me. Moat is very, very rare in a large tournament.

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Decks with Moat often also run sweepers; or sometimes even RIP maindeck (not saying it should stay, but it does blank DRS).

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Originally Posted by Tangente

".Ix" illustrates you can play around counterspells with NO/Hoof. So what other advantages does Emrakul have over Hoof? Both can be stifled and killed with mass removal. Hoof is two-times cheaper and tutorable. Emrakul is "only" immune to STP. Th3 w1z4rd's argument was about situation where opponent knows what I'm playing, neutralizes that threat and then plays mass removal. And Emrakul gives you not a big advantage in this kind of scenario.

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Err... if the opponent doesn't know what you're playing when you play some elves, he/she is an idiot. lol. Mass removal isn't uncommon. Pyroclasm, Deed, Perish, Engineered Plague, etc. Counters aren't uncommon. So no, any of the scenarios I've suggested aren't winter wonderland. None of that removal affects Emrakul and when you cast him you get an extra turn so Supreme Verdict and co. don't matter. If they Stifle Emrakul or Hoof, then play Perish or something, then you kill them with Emrakul instead of having no creatures. Stop hating on Priest and Archdruid. If you don't have Archdruid you flat lose to Engineered Plague.

Insult removed. Treat fellow posters with respect, please. Thanks. -zilla

Running NO means not being able to run Gaddock Teeg reliably to fight combo in the maindeck. We can agree that an early Gaddock Teeg is back breaking in game 1 against a variety of combo decks, yes?

I don't want to conflict with Teeg and NO and have to choose which one I have to play with during a game. I'd rather play Teeg (high combo metagame) and only take the hit on GSZ, rather than cut off additional copies of NO. Elves as an archetype is flexible enough to play varied roles in given matchups. While we might be "combo" against aggro decks, we're also "beatdown" against combo decks; and "control" against Affinity for instance. Having the option of Teeg maindeck is a bigger draw for me than being able to win with Craterhoof Behemoth in the good matchups.

Yeah. The deck can definitely run without Natural Order. I enjoyed some success with the Mirror Entity builds when that was The Elves Deck as well. In some ways I still miss the crazy infinite loops you can run with those builds.

But being able to NO into a Craterhoof is a just an extremely powerful and compact way to win. My win percentage went way up after adding that package. It offers a level of consistency that is very hard to let go of and you can also be an idiot and still win with it. I'm sure I would be able to escape more nightmare scenarios with access to an Emrakul, but I'd rather beat 80% of the field 80% of the time than beat 95% of the field 70% of the time. Okay I suck at math so maybe those numbers don't add up. My point is I want to be able to consistently Hoof it up and just accept whatever bad matchups/scenarios that gives me. Running Emrakul just to beat some wild boardstate/deck I'll rarely see is not worth it to me. It may be worth it to you, if you want that peace of mind.

As long as you have access to the basic engine of Nettle, Heritage, Other Elf, and Glimpse, then I think the rest of the deck can be reasonably customized for lines of play not involving the God-draw. But the most interesting parts of this deck, at least for me, are the bits and pieces that help you win even when you *don't* have that God-draw. And for me, that is NO>Hoof. I didn't like the way it looked at first, either, but after running it and seeing how stupid it is, I find it difficult to go back to another configuration.

IRT Infinitium's list-
I've beaten Glacial Chasm, Energy Field, and Show and Tell (Sneak Attack) decks often enough to not be too afraid of them. Postboard we have the tools to compete. However, while the rest of that list is pretty scary, those cards are extremely marginal in my area. When I start to see that stuff everywhere, I just play a different deck. Luckily my meta hasn't been flooded with that stuff.

Edit - posted at the same time as several people.

Mass removal as a reason to run Emrakul -
This makes no sense to me. If I play out my board, with Hoof OR Emrakul, into a next-turn Wrath, I will kill them regardless of which package I'm running before I have to ship the turn. The Hoof package requires less setup, so you can commit less to a board and still winout. I think we would all agree that setting up Emrakul, whether successful or not, requires a serious board commitment. If they hit the removal button on you before you are able build up to that Glimpse-Emrakul play, then you are even more screwed than the Hoof build in a similar scenario. And decks that play Stifle (RUG), do not play Perish. They would play Rough/Tumble most likely. And against those decks you alter your lines of play to work around that. If you are consistently losing to decks that simply counter your BigAssCreature and then boardwipe you, then perhaps you are playing it wrong? Or maybe you should accept those losses and work on other matchups? I dunno what to tell you. Scenarios like the one you are describing are not something I often see.

Engineered Plague -
I have lost all fear of Engineered Plague. They need two in play to stop us. I have Wirewood Symbiote, Dryad Arbor, Nettle Sentinel, and Deathrite Shaman +NO into Progenitus or Craterhoof. That is enough to beat Plague. Also you have access to Abrupt Decay from the side. If you are losing to Plague consistently, you are doing this wrong. And although Plague decks often also use Liliana as a counter to Progenitus, if you set up your plays correctly you can work around this.

Counters+Removal -
Yes, these stink and are no fun. You can usually beat one of them at a time, if you play correctly. Beating both of them at the same time, however, requires careful play and favorable variance. In my experience, I have found that my opponent "has it" less often than I "have it". Sharpen your play and then let luck be the only deciding factor. If you played to all your outs correctly and still lost, then, well you lost. That happens sometimes.

Moat/RIP/sweeper decks AKA Miracles -
Yes. Miracles is a shitty matchup. You have to draw better than them and get something going before they can lock you out. I always side out 1-2 DRS because yes, RIP does blank him. That said, in my last 4 tournament encounters against Miracles, I am 3-0-1. Better to be lucky than good, perhaps? You can also bring in Teeg to strand their Moat/Humility. I am actually more afraid of Humility than Moat, simply because it is much more common and forces you to commit to the board more than you want to, playing right into their sweepers.

Teeg - He is very good, yes, but requires special play to make sure he doesn't hurt us more than our opponents. When bringing in Teeg I usually bring out some number of Natural Order, if not all of them. The nonbo there is quite gross, I'll agree. You can still Glimpse-chain into your win. I've also been lucky to often topdeck Craterhoof with a Cradle + dudes on the table, but if you build your deck towards these outs (lots of Cradles, 2 MD Hoof), then they will be available to you more often.

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Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd

Err... if the opponent doesn't know what you're playing when you play some elves, he/she is an idiot. lol. Mass removal isn't uncommon. Pyroclasm, Deed, Perish, Engineered Plague, etc. Counters aren't uncommon. So no, any of the scenarios I've suggested aren't winter wonderland. None of that removal affects Emrakul and when you cast him you get an extra turn so Supreme Verdict and co. don't matter. If they Stifle Emrakul or Hoof, then play Perish or something, then you kill them with Emrakul instead of having no creatures. Stop hating on Priest and Archdruid. If you don't have Archdruid you flat lose to Engineered Plague. Morons.

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Asuming that your opponent let glimpse resolve, let you draw your deck and generate 20+ mana unmolested to ENABLE Emrakul IS winterwonderland. If you take that scenarios as given it's easy to see that you can bait several Counterspells with NO or GSZ (for x=8) before you either stick One of those or hardcast One (of the up to 2) Hoofs.

As mentioned, Stifle + Perish just NEVER happens. Never saw a deck running both tbh.

Engineered Plague is a joke for Nettle, Symbiote, DRS, GSZ->Arbor and NO.

Priest and Archdruid ARE affected by boardsweepers because of their summoning sickness. Weren't you talking about immunity to boardsweepers before to support your thesis towards Emrakul?? This IS an issue. Costing 2 or 3 mana for the Glimpse-combo is another. Ignoring these simple facts AND calling other dear community members morons in the same post is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Decks with Moat often also run sweepers; or sometimes even RIP maindeck (not saying it should stay, but it does blank DRS).

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Decks with Moat also run Terminus and Humility. Still those decks are quite rare.

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Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd

Err... if the opponent doesn't know what you're playing when you play some elves, he/she is an idiot. lol. Mass removal isn't uncommon. Pyroclasm, Deed, Perish, Engineered Plague, etc. Counters aren't uncommon. So no, any of the scenarios I've suggested aren't winter wonderland. None of that removal affects Emrakul and when you cast him you get an extra turn so Supreme Verdict and co. don't matter. If they Stifle Emrakul or Hoof, then play Perish or something, then you kill them with Emrakul instead of having no creatures. Stop hating on Priest and Archdruid. If you don't have Archdruid you flat lose to Engineered Plague. Morons.

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Biggest problem with mass removal is that opponent is able to play it before you combo-out, i.e. kill all yours Nettles, Heritage Druids, Priests, Archdruids etc. before you are able to play Emrakul or Hoof. And good opponent should kill your elves as soon as possible becouse it is safer play for him. In my opinion doesn't matter if you are playing Emrakul or Hoof when you are playing against mass removal. That game is much more about not over-extending.

I don't hate on Priest and Archdruid. I've played them for one year. Now I am playing NO and my tournament results are much better. And I believe it is not just mine results.

About Engineered Plague. I have no problems win against Plague since there is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Pyroclasm, Deed and Perish are much much worse. And against them the Archdruid is helpless.

I hope I don't sound much offensive. I just describe my feelings, observations and experiences.

EDIT: danyul has described my feelings, observations and experiences faster and beautifuly. I am slow writer and english it's not my home language.

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Originally Posted by Tangente

Decks with Moat also run Terminus and Humility. Still those decks are quite rare.

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Rare is relative. No metagame is exactly the same. Between Combo and Miracles in my metagame, Gaddock Teeg is much preferred as it allows this deck to operate much better with him on the battlefield. That constraint makes Natural Order a clunky win condition. There is not one specific build of Elves that fits perfectly into every tournament. Accordingly, the strength of some of the fringe win-cons (Hoof, Emrakul, NO, Mirror Entity) all vary.

There are alternatives to the NO build that function better in some metagames. In most matches, NO/Hoof is just a faster and easier way to achieve the same thing as Glimpse-chain deep into your deck. This makes it easier to adopt, but comes at a premium in the deck's slots. Adding more non-creature cards makes Glimpse worse. NO/Hoof balances that out; but you may still find hands that feel weak because they don't contain enough creatures.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Rare is relative. No metagame is exactly the same. Between Combo and Miracles in my metagame, Gaddock Teeg is much preferred as it allows this deck to operate much better with him on the battlefield. That constraint makes Natural Order a clunky win condition. There is not one specific build of Elves that fits perfectly into every tournament. Accordingly, the strength of some of the fringe win-cons (Hoof, Emrakul, NO, Mirror Entity) all vary.

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Well, If my meta was mostly Moat/Terminus/Humility I would consider not playing Elves at all. Personally I don't like Gaddock Teeg much against control. All games I have played and won against Miracle control were fast games, where I was able kill them in 2nd or 3rd turn. It is tough matchup either with Emrakul of Hoof package.

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Originally Posted by danyul

I'm sure I would be able to escape more nightmare scenarios with access to an Emrakul, but I'd rather beat 80% of the field 80% of the time than beat 95% of the field 70% of the time. Okay I suck at math so maybe those numbers don't add up.

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Awesome. :laugh:

We appear to be running in circles over the same topic, flaring tempers and getting no where. Maybe it's time to call a truse and move on.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

We appear to be running in circles over the same topic, flaring tempers and getting no where. Maybe it's time to call a truse and move on.

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Or let tournament results speak for themselves. So far, I've seen clones from GP Denver & CFB's list keep surfacing. I am not of the opinion this is the most optimal list, so I guess I have some tournaments to go to! :)

I'm almost done building my deck, as in completely.

Here is what I want to run: (only missing 1 Bayou and 1 Savannah)

// Lands
3 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

// Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pendelhaven
1 Progenitus

There's not much GY-hate in my SB because there are no GY-based decks in my meta, and I feel with 1 Bojuka Bog and 2 Faeries, I have plenty to be able to deal with those decks.

So, what are your thoughts on this pile of cardboard?