[Deck] The Rock

As I posted yesterday, I'll put on a few decklists, to whomever may interest (also, this is the second part of my reply to Mirri). Also note, all this is pre-rtr, and are also *my* views of the deck (they might make no sense at all for you, but might help).

Tempo build (AKA Dark Horizons):

4 thoughtseize
4 hymnn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
4 bob
4 goyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
1 pernicious deed

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 horizon kanopy
1 maze of ith
4 wasteland

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"hard control" list (the grindy, slow list I used to paly before)

4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse
3 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
1 elspeth, knight-errand
3 pernicious deed
3 top

(this one uses 24 lands)

I personally think hat list is extremely outdated. Hymn is relevant when you don't let your opponent breath, and although there are indeed big threats here, the presence of 3 pernicious deeds indicates that you *want* a slow game. A slow game might win vs a lot of decks, but cold-loses to stoneblades and miracles (on a scenario where jace digged the deck twice or three times, you opponent probably won the game, no matter if you destroy him or not).

Now, two lists I've been testing:

3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozlike
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
3 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
2 liliana
1 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam
1 sylvan lybrary
3 mox diamond
3 top

this one is an attempt to a tempo build, but relies less in hymn to tourach. It also looks more consistent than the first build. I also tried with 4 abrupt decays and 3 vindicates on the list (plus minor changes). Worked nice.

Last night I was testing this, with SFM and GSZ (yeah....). SInce I'l probably play this next wednesday, no decays on the list yet.

3 seize
3 iok
4 plowshares
3 top
3 mox diamond
3 tarmogoyf
3 bob
3 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
1 ooze OR kitchen finks (solely because he has to be killed twice)
1 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
1 batterskull
2 maelstrom pulse
2 green sun's zenith

that list uses also a dryad arbor.

SFM + jitte OR SOFAI is a great way to control the board. I missed Liliana in my tests, must make it fit in there somewhere (lost to progenitus... sniff...)

On one more note, people will stop playing show & tell when everybody starts using angel of despair on the sideboard. Try it, it's hilarious.

The great part about the lists that use Mox Diamond, or at least 24 lands, Angel of Despair is actually feasible to hard-cast if you draw into multiples g2-3 (not that you would really need to...)

EDIT: I'm really curious what folks think about Garruk Relentless. Is he playable in this deck?

He's actually the nutter butters. I'd play 2 if I had room. I've usually won most of the games where I had him come online. Producing deathtouch Wolves after mucking a creature is no joke. The Trample usually means your Knights are getting there, even if they have garbage in the way. I'd give him a shot.

He gets even better if you run the Ulvenwald Tracker, since then you just get Wolves to fight their Knights, and they get hosed.

-Matt

Gaaruck has been a 3 of in my side board and I have been going the mass planes walker plan against miracles and other control decks. A constant stream of 2/2s and liliana stripping hands and demanding sacrifices is hard to keep up with with jace or elspeth.

I was also going to say a stream of 2/2's against Miracles isn't awful AT ALL.

-Matt

Well, I'll have to toss out my list then for reference because I'm playing 1 maindeck Elspeth and 1 maindeck Garruk Relentless, and I haven't tested it out much. I feel like its strong, but I'd like some feedback:

1x Birds of Paradise
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Eternal Witness
2x Terravore
4x Knight of the Reliquary

2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Raven's Crime
1x Profane Command
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Life from the Loam
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless

4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Treetop Village
1x Nantuko Monastary


My whole plan is to disrupt until I can land a big threat (Knight/Vore or Elspeth/Garruk.) I have the long game in mind, so the longer the game goes the stronger I get. I know I'm in the minority but I have been using 4x Loam for a long time in Rock and I absolutely love it. My inclination, if Garruk is as good as you say he is, is to drop 1x Raven's Crime for another copy.

I think 3 ravens' crime is a bit too much indeed.
Mr. Safety, seeing how you rely in loan, what is your gameplan exactly? What happens if you end up milling al the cards you need? Ever felt need for volrath's stronghold? What is the post grave hate strategy? I'm asking all this because I know a lot of people still like loam (including me).

I am working on getting a Volrath's Stronghold, just don't have one ATM. Thanks for the note. So far GSZ>>>Witness and Profane Command have done well at getting my threats back, but Stronghold is definately on my prioritized list of wants.

I agree on the Crimes...I feel like going to 2 would be fine. What do you suggest for that slot (or should I just trim down to 60 rather than 61 cards?) EDIT: Mox Diamond seems like it could fill 2 spots in the deck nicely, whatcha think?

My gameplan is this:

1) Early turns disrupt with discard/removal
2) Board wipe/big fat threat/PW
3) Ride loam to utilize cycle lands drawing extra cards, Raven's Crime raping my opponent's hand, and dredging more lands into the yard to feed Terravore/Knight of the Reliquary

My experience with the deck is the longer the game goes, the stronger I get. I have played a few matches, here are the matchups/results:

1) Aggro-Loam - 2/0 - I have more removal for his threats, he brings in grave hate game 2 while I sideboard in Leyline of Sanctity, effectively hosing his discard and Seismic Assault. I deal with all of his threats and smack twice with a massive Knight FTW.

2) Dutch Stax - 2/0 - G1 he keeps laying down lock pieces (Moat, Humility, Ghostly Prison, Thalia) and I just Pulse him out of the game, I got lucky and TS-ed a Trinisphere on turn 1. G2 he plays the same game and it goes realllllly long. This is where my deck shines, around turn 11-12 I GSZ for Eternal Witness, grab a dredge-ed PDeed, pop it for 4 to wipe out everything. He concedes post-Deed.

I know both of those decks are mid-range decks, so I need a lot more practice against other decks.

I do feel like the only one that's still running mystics. I also felt like the only one to start. I don't think it's a bad call, just one that changes the versatility and speed of the deck. Jitte's awesome vs aggressive decks. Likewise, Batterskull's better vs control. I think the best reason to cut them is that it opens up more lines of play. Thus, giving more chances for mistakes.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Few questions about your list:

1. Why no Savannah in your mana base? If you draw your basic swamp/bog and a fetch land you can not fetch for all of your colors.

2. What did gaddock teeg ever do to you? He is a great help in the miracles and storm match ups and is easily fetch able by your GSZ, extract on swords GSZ for teeg is a pretty solid win against miracles on most days.

3. Why only three knight? As the best creature in the format and pretty much the reason GWx decks exist right now I am a little confused as to why you only play three, especially when you have the ability to play him on turn two and just roll.

4. Where is the misers copy of life from the loam? Against maverick and RUG is can be a game winner when you negate all of their mana denial in one fell swoop ,or 2cc sorcery...one or the other.

5. I am really squinting my eyes here and I cannot see golgari charm being better than any of the cards you listed: zealous persecution, EE, pernicious deed are all cards you should be playing over the charm. The only enchantment you can kill in this format is counterbalance and the 2cc charm is not going to be doing that regularly. The regenerate also seems sketchy in that the decks you will be regenerating your creatures are the decks you would want the -1/-1 sweeper effect against(maverick) any other deck will be RFGing your creatures.

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1) I actually forgot to re-add it. I took it out for a little bit of testing and put it back in after. The thing was that it's very rare that I actually needed the G opposed to black (where I hadn't gotten basics). It also helped with extra lands vs any deck running submerge. I put it back in because there were enough, late game, examples that I felt it was ok in and didn't care too much about the other parts. i will say that it was very nice having multiple duals to be able to fetch against submerge.

Also, I copy/paste the lists right out of my google doc that I have linked in my signature. So, I'll have to fix it there or it'll stay that way for a while.

2) Teeg didn't do anything to me. Then again, he rarely did anything for me either. I understand that most of the decks that are out there can play around "Thalia's Tax" but I feel that the overall meta's dealt with Teeg pretty well. They either play low until they're ready and deal with him accordingly, or they don't. Miracles has even started running things like O-Ring to deal with him (as well as Omniscience). So, it's more so that I've cut him because I don't feel he's as well places. I will say, since I have cut him, my combo matches have gotten a lot better and I'm actually not just conceding in my head even when I play Belcher.

3) I've never had the third knight. Even HERE I felt like three was enough. The reason I don't play more is because we already play way more 3cc spells than other decks in our range. We also lack the speed to run one out there right from the start (limited GSZ and mana dorks). Decks like Maverick are essentially running 8 T1 mana dorks (Hierarch and GSZ), allowing them to almost make sure that they're getting to 3 mana on the second turn.

I've tested with 4 and I felt as though I always had too many three's in hand at the start of the game. Now, I know that I'm a very greedy player but, I'm not greedy enough to keep a hand that slow against anyone except Stoneblade and pre-Omniscience Show and Tell.

4) I'm a basics whore. I don't need Loam to keep my lands vs those decks. I fetch basics and watch them huff and puff. I'm also very key on my basics as well (ie no forests post board vs canadian thresh unless I have an active knight).

I feel loam is a recovery plan if it's being used to get back lands (and that's all) which is a place that I don't want to be, regardless of what deck I'm playing. I also feel, and have talked about, that loam is a wasted turn (or series) as we can't do anything with the extra lands during that turn (save Liliana). I think Safety's list with Raven's Crime is the best way to go because it can do something with Loam's extra lands.

I also feel it's not very well places as we do typically only draw 1 card per turn (I'm aware of Top, Library, and Canopy) so the loam is typically our draw for the turn. In that scenario, the only time I want loam is when I have access to those cards and know that I don't want any of them at all, EVER. That scenario, I feel, is the reason for sideboarding. If you've found cards that you don't want in a match, board them out. Yes, there are situations that it's just at the time (like looking at 3 lands) but you'll probably have a way to shuffle your deck which leaves you in a similar same situation.

5) I think you're unknowingly downplaying charm's abilities. The enchantment destruction is far more relevant than just counterbalance. Sneak Attack, Sylvan Library, Omniscience, and Counterbalance are just some of the things that hits. All of those are important for the decks that are running them.

Who cares if you don't kill the counterbalance if you know you've not only tapped them out but also put a 2 on top during their turn. That'll open the way up an opportunity to play another cost'd spell and maybe deal with it there.

Omniscience is interesting because, if their first spell isn't emrakul (and in some instances that will be fine as well), they'll probably only get just one spell. Just remember to kill it while that spell's on the stack. That would make the Show and Tell they cast, that much worse. Could you imagine them playing Burning Wish and then having to rethink their entire plan because you've already dealt with everything relevant in their hand?

Most will probably grab the other Snow and Tell but, that's one down and any extirpate will kill the deck at that point; where discard will reduce their copies to a remaining 2 (since all "virtual copies" are dead as well). I would say Magical Christmas Land would apply but the scenario is actually pretty plausible)

The -1/-1 ability is the most unfavorable. I've found out that there are very limited number's of decks that I actually want Zealous Persecution against (Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Belcher, etc) and when I play it, I typically wipe their board at a point that they don't want (Mom's dead, Team size drops dramatically, pact triggers to be paid, goblin Storm wasted, etc). So, Persecution has done wonders. One of the best parts was that it didn't hurt me. I mean, I've killed SFM with birds and kept the bird alive!

That's what I'll lose though. Against any deck where I'd want to case the charm. I run the possibility of losing 7 creatures (4 Bob + 1 Arbor + 1 Bird + 1 Tracker). That's not going to happen very often (if I ever play 4 Bobs, hit me. Although, I have played 3). I think I can live with losing those losses if I'm clearing Mom's and basically turning the tide to be very one sided.

The regen ability is a little more vague in it's application but, think of it this way. Nic Fit is a bad matchup if you can't kill them before they get to about 4 mana. At that point things start taking a drastic turn for the worse (lucky for us they like to fetch non-basics). Stopping them from getting there isn't actually a very possible thing as any Explorer will probably put them there or force us to use a Swords to keep swinging.

Why is it a bad match and progressively getting worse as they pile on more mana? The answer is because they have sweepers. Yes, playing around Wrath effects is part of magic but, how do we win vs another attrition based deck that +1's us? You can't really afford to play around the Wrath effects. So, instead of playing around them, I plan to have the ability to negate them. This works against EE as well.

I have to leave otherwise I'd let my long winded self keep going but I hope that answers your questions.

I am a huge advocate of BGW loam lists, all of my lists are in past pages or on the aggro dirt thread in established. I'm at work now but I would live to talk about life from the loams.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

This is wrong and assuming that every deck with Brainstorm has the same funamental gameplan.

Playing a very heavy threat density (against the type of blue decks I'm assuming your talking about) works well because they lack the amount of creature removal to deal with the threat density. At a certain point, they run out of removal, while the aggro deck continues to draw creatures.

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This is generally true. RUG, Stoneblade, and Miracles all have specific answers for creatures vs answers to spells. Their Brainstorms are most effective when they are shipping back extra lands or poor answers for the decks they are facing.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Miracles works well against heavy threat density decks like Maverick because it has enough removal to deal with their threats, and has a sufficient amount of card advantage to make sure they have more answers than the aggro deck can play creatures. Terminus hits multiple guys, giving the deck virtually more removal spells while at the same time providing card advantage. Counterbalance can gain incrimental card advantage over the course of the game, despite not being able to "lock" Maverick out, which is all it really needs Counterbalance to do in the first place.

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Miracles is a little different than RUG and Stoneblade in that it gives up tempo advantage for more MD removal (ie Terminus). To make up for more anti-creature based clunkiness, they use Counterbalance as an ultra-efficient way to deal with the stack. Miracles is likely going to need to BS away their Counterbalance against decks like Maverick. Against the typical Junk build though, Counterbalance can still be very live. Abrupt Decay is an amazing answer for everything from RUG to Maverick to Miracles.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Junk works well against Brainstorm decks, I'm not sure why you feel the opposite. Disrupting them proactively is one of the best ways to attack a reactive blue deck, actually. Again, not all blue decks with Brainstorm are the same. Discard is universally good against reactive blue spells, but something like land destruction is great against a mana hungry deck like Miracles and worse against an efficient deck like RUG Delver. Regardless, the mult-angle attack is still extremely effective and synergetic. Attacking the opponents hand forces them to commit threats to the board in order to not lose them, which then get destroyed by the permanent removal.

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I generally am not too afraid of Junk decks because they always feel rather clunky. Deal with a couple Bobs and a couple KotR and they are spinning their wheels. Discard really shines (for Junk) when it's able to further strain a deck's threat-removing resources. To win, their Dazes and Swords need to 1-for-1 KotRs, not Thoughtseizes.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

The only zones where there stuff is safe is on top of the library or in the graveyard. This deck can easily attack the graveyard postboard, so they are pretty much limited to effects like Brainstorm, Jace, and Top especially, to safeguard their stuff. The problem with relying on the top of the library is that reactive decks want their spells in hand so they can react with them and not on top of the library.

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Even if you put a Blue deck in topdeck mode, they are going to be topdecking much better than Junk will. They key is having more threats than they have answers (and as opposed to Maverick which uses pure threat density, Junk uses Discard to help achieve that). Maverick can go into the late game just fine. Unless Junk has a Top or Bob out, they aren't going to survive drawing dead discard and Moxes.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

As another example, let's say you attack Miracles manabase a bit. Instead of digging for lock pieces or whatever, they will be digging for land instead. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Cutting them off of flashing back Swords to Plowshares or casting Jace is nice.

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This is another example where you are distracting your own game plan. By mid to late game, their GY is going to have plenty of options for Snapcaster targets. Do you want them flashing back their one Swords for your KotR and their one Spell Pierce for your Vindicate or do you want them flashing back their Swords on your KotR and having a GY full of Spell Pierces when you play your next threat?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

On the flip side, let's say you blow up some Delver(s) and/or Goyf(s) (with removal, against RUG). Now instead of digging for countermagic to counter Junks creatures (since Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt are worthless at dealing with Junks creatures), they are digging for more creatures. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Resolving a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary after they resolve a 3/3 Mongoose is nice.

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If RUG doesn't have the soft counters to stop your removal on their creatures then you are probably already winning. Abrupt Decay buys you enough time to land a bigger threat than they can handle. Vindicate is clunky.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I do agree with your assessment of blues flexibility and consistency, and overloading a blue player with a large threat density does work well against typical blue aggro/control decks like Stoneblade and RUG.

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I think we generally agree, but I'm just not a fan of Junk playing the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none game. Junk doesn't have counters to protect their threats. Junk doesn't have cheap creatures and burn to race their opponents. Junk doesn't have the threat density of Maverick. Junk has discard and Junk has fatties. Discard paves the way for your threat to stick unopposed for a few turns and then you need to be able to finish the game before they start out-topdecking you.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I am a huge advocate of BGW loam lists, all of my lists are in past pages or on the aggro dirt thread in established. I'm at work now but I would live to talk about life from the loams.

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I like the idea of Junk Loam and I'd probably start with a full set of KotR, Goyfs, Bobs, and Lingering Souls and move on from there.

Wow, this thread almos went away from the first page! Let me Unearth it! (:p)

I got 2 copies of abrupt decay today on the pre-release! Now I need at least one more rawr

Anyway, I'd like to post 2 lists: one I discussed with a friend and the other one I brewed.

The first one is:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowhares
3 abrupt decay
2 maesltrom pulse
4 mother of runes
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
2 green sun's zenith

and 23 lands (the same ones...)

the second is:

3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 sylvan library

...and the same lands

I like the first one because it feels safer to play our guys with the mother of runes, witness is cool, ooze is great, and zenith is, well, zenith.

However the second list shines in my eyes because it is much more like the old tempo version. You'll see I cut liliana in both. I miss her, it is a great card, but I don't know what to cut to fit in her (all cards seem vital, and I was running a lot of 3cmc spells).

Changing the subject a bit, what do you think of vraska? Playable (of course, it would be a supoer-duper slooowww deck, lilianas, deeds, stalling a lot etc)?

Well, with the first list I don't think you have enough creatures to justify the inclusion of mother of runes, especially without SFM or just straight up equipment. Without equipment, your 2/1 and 1/1 army will have a hard time killing anyone. She also seems very redundant with all of your discard, as you can use discard to clear the way for you dudes.

The second list, lacks any "engine" cards which help us win many of our matches. Without loam, planes walkers or any recursion engine you will have a hard time against other mid range plus decks, especially if you cannot stick a confidant.

With both of your lists you have 9 dedicated removal slots which also seems a little heavy.

But, both of the lists are smooth and look consistent, they just aren't my style with he speed of the format today.

That being said, does anyone think eternal witness is becoming better and better as the format does on? I have been thinking about a list with 4 witnesses main board to act as a super snapcaster and rebuy all of GBW powerful spells. The synergy is really high with life from the loam, Lilliana and the like. I will get a list up as soon as i can!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Well, with the first list I don't think you have enough creatures to justify the inclusion of mother of runes, especially without SFM or just straight up equipment. Without equipment, your 2/1 and 1/1 army will have a hard time killing anyone. She also seems very redundant with all of your discard, as you can use discard to clear the way for you dudes.

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Alternatively, Mothers plus Discard will definitely forge a path for the 4 KotRs and 3 Goyfs w/2 GSZ to fetch either one. Essentially the same assault game plan as Maverick.

I think 4 Witnesses is too many. You start to clog up your hand with 3cc 2/1's and you limit what you can revive, not to mention the slow speed of that play. The recursion is great for sure, but only if you can ensure that you're controlling the board or hand first.

Also, Vraska seems too high CC for this deck but I haven't played with this version of Rock. I'd worry about the deck's ability to protect her when she's on cool down from her Pulse, and she almost needs the Pernicious Deed (which isn't an autoinclude here) to wipe the board before pooping out 3 assassins.

Maybe in the early to mid 2000's Vraska would be good in Rock. Unfortunately, I don't think a 5-CMC Planeswalker that doesn't do much for a while is good enough. Against most aggressive decks, they'll have enough creatures maybe to attack her. Her -3 is great, but I think the creatures dying doesn't matter much since they can just attack you instead.

I think maybe in Nic Fit it could be okay, but here, not so much.


-Matt

When I mentioned vraska, it was, of course, not for these builds (and most builds we play around here). I was talking about a deck built around her. But I already dismissed it as too slow, losing easily to burns and combos.
Maybe next week I'll have all the decays and I'll (try to) play with a tempo version of bgw.

Played against RUG tonight, and Abrupt Decay was VERY juicy.

-Matt

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I was talking about a deck built around her. But I already dismissed it as too slow, losing easily to burns and combos.

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You know, Vraska would easily drop into the Legacy Death Cloud Rock deck. I've done some testing with it for modern and was somewhat pleased but am on other projects.

The thread for it here on Source is extremely old, but relied on such synergies as Stronghold + Shriekmaw for relentless removal against RUG/Maverick and then Loam + Cycling Lands and Planeswalkers vs control decks for endless card advantage. It always seemed to do well when reading tourny reports, not sure why the deck died off...

Overall her strategy is too far from this thread's Rock, but I think she can give other variants outside of Nic Fit a significant boost.

As I play and read here, my list evolves as does my understanding of how each card in the deck functions. This leads to new questions:

1) @daimon: How is it having only 4 discard spells? Seems like you'll be disappointed every game where you don't draw one in your opening hand. Also, combo must be a very hard matchup with only 4 discard (local combo players have come to fear my Hymns :cool: )

2) also @daimon: seeing as I've become disillusioned with Stoneforge, yes you are kinda the only one still playing it. I jumped ship because it's such a slow clock, to the point where I often lose games I was winning because I couldn't bash hard enough fast enough. Do you ever have speed issues? If not, how the hell do you do it?!

EDIT:
To those doubting Lingering Souls, you do have a point. It is counter to the more tempo construction of my current build. However, it has some undeniable uses: 1) With 3x Jitte in the deck, I must ENSURE that I always have a critter to carry it or Jitte becomes a dead draw. 2) It is technically card advantage. It's good to have card advantage (where's that "It's good to own land" picture?). 3) It is a hilarious answer to most classic control elements: LSouls drives planeswalkers, ESPECIALLY Jace and Lili, nuts; it keeps you from getting blown out by sweepers; it even keeps StP from blowing out your board.

I thougt about playing Rock with Stoneforge package but if everybody writes he is to slow maybe i should cut him.

If i would cut the Stoneforge package i have the following creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant