[Deck] Dredge

I always go putrid first against an unknown opponent. If I'm even playing with the PImp himself.

The other question is a little too vague to answer correctly. It matters a ton if you're in a preboard game, or in g2 or 3. You also have to take into account previous mulligans and if you know what your opponent is playing. If it's game one against an unknown opponent and your opening 7 has 2 study effects but no dredger you should throw it back. On a mull to 5 though those hands become probable keepers. If it's a postboard game things get more complicated since you now need anti hate alongside your outlet, dredger, and land. So if your 7 has a land, 2 Studies, and a Nature's Claim, I would most likely keep. This also depends on my opponents deck and whether they mulliganed or not since they tend to snap mulligan if they have no hate.

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Originally Posted by Que

If you're a stickler for the 13th land feel free to make any preference cut to fit it in. Though I would urge to keep all 4 Ichorid as I believe it to be one of the best cards in this version of the deck.

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I never drop any number of Iccy Thump. He's the best non cabal therapy card in the deck.

Sup guys. I just missed the top 8 at the SCG IQ Los Angeles. It was a fun event overall seeing as how So Cal repp'd it pretty hard having about 5 locals in the top 8 and about 3 or more in the top 16 including myself in 9th. I did have to fight a lot of my friends throughout the event which was bittersweet. In any case I wrote up a small report. My Mental Notes (no pun intended lol) may not be the most vivid so if I misrepresented anything then I urge my opponents to clear things up if you're on the forums. Here is how the tournament rolled out..

LIST!!!!

R1: Nathan Situ w/ Imperial Painter
- I don't feel super confident since this matchup can be pretty horrid. I have no way to interact with his combo outside of cabal therapy which is only a crutch since he also plays Goblin Welder. Also he has maindeck hate in the form of Ensnaring bridge which I cannot beat game 1. Anyway..

Game 1 I had the elusive turn 1 LED + Breakthrough into Faithless Looting dirtyness. So much for seeing that bridge!
Game 2 He landed a painter with Grindstone, but could not activate it. At that time I believe I had 1 bridge and an Ashen Rider in my GY with 2 BfB and the single DR in my hand. On my turn I activated Cephalid to hit at least 1 Narcomoeba and discarded both bridges and the DR. I sacc'd Narco to cabal Therapy to generate 3 Creatures which allowed me to DR the Ashen Rider back and Exile his Gridstone. He isn't able to reassemble the combo before I kill him with the rider and Ichorids.
2-0, Match Score: 1-0

R2: Koby w/ Tin Fins
- Another matchup which seems unfavorable in that he is definitely faster in being able to assemble his combo.

Game 1 I have LED + Careful Study which allows me to hit at least 1 Narcomoeba and lets me flashback Cabal. Here is where having knowlege of your opponent can become handy. Though considering the makeup of my graveyard I assessed the situation and determined that from my current position the only decks I would lose to were either some kind of S&T deck or Reanimator. I named Entomb and I was paid off. He isn't able to find a way to bin a grisel/emmy and the game concludes a few turns after.
Game 2. My opener has LED and 2 Careful Study along with coliseum. Koby turn 1 Probes and therapies away both of my careful studies which slow me down. I remember he played a chrome mox and imprinted a Grisel to it. He then entombed grisel, however, I was able to faint a couple of draw steps as he did not draw a 2nd land to cast the shallow Grave in his hand. By then I had the chance to DR into an Iona on black. Koby plays on for a bit seeing if he could draw 1 of the Chains of vapor he had boarded in, but to no avail.
2-0, Match Score: 2-0

R3: Jack C. w/ Esper Miracles
Game 1 I mulligan to 4 and pull off the win with about 15 mins left on the clock. Game went so long I don't remember huge specifics. I was just very careful not to overextend my Ichorids into his Terminus.
Game 2 Ended in a draw which awarded me the win overall.
1-0-1, Match Score: 3-0

R4: Mitchell Nguyen Patriot Stoneblade (10th place)
Game 1 I have decent hand and I remember Mitchell fow'd an outlet, however, he pitched Clique instead of TNN it was later revealed. He played Stoneforge and fetched up Batterskull. On my turn I hit a therapy and I aim to hit either the TNN or the Bskull I know about. Either way I wanted to make sure the coast was clear for my Breakthrough which allowed me to generate a zombie horde backed by a giant Troll.
Game 2 Mitchell plays Cage and I spend a couple of turns trying to use my draw spells to find an Abrupt. I end up drawing one and was going to setup a breakthrough Coliseum turn at his end step, however, he decides to cast RIP as well as contaiment Priest to shut me out completely. /Cry
Game 3 I open with Land, Lotus petal, Careful Study, breakthrough and some dredgers. He did not have FOW and that was game.
2-1, Match Score: 4-0

R5: Grant Gutierrez w/ MUD (Top 8 Competitor)
Game 1. I don't remember Grant playing many spells outside of Chalice on 1 after I had already cast a study to start my engine. He also cast an additional Chalice on 0 and eventually a lodstone. By this time though I had recurred Ichorid a few times and continued to build my board which allowed me to overwhelm him before something like wurmcoil hit the board.
Game 2 He plays Tormonds Crypt, but pops it a bit early which allowed me to use the draw spells I was sandbagging to get back into the game. Again Trinisphere shows up a bit late to the party and I'm able to take it without seeing any fat robots.
2-0, Match Score: 5-0

R6: Matthew Chung w/ Grixis Delver (Top 8 Competitor)
Game 1. Matt didn't seem to have much action outside of a Probe, a Young Pyromancer I therapied away, and a delver that would refuse to flip. I eventually build a board of zombies and receive the concession.
Game 2. I mull to 3 and promptly lose
Game 3. I keep a "greedy" hand with all draw spells and 2 coliseums, but no dredgers. I end up seeing 1/3 of my deck before finding one and I die. I don't think I would have mulliganed that either way. That RNG dou.
1-2, Match Score: 5-1

R7: Alex Gellerman w/ Bant Stoneblade (SCG LA Winner)
Game 1. He plays a turn 1 Noble into a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with a green source up and its all downhill from there. At some point I had 2 LEDs in play and 2 Coliseums. He only had 2 green sources available at the time since he had just cast KOTR and I had 3 Dredgers in the yard (2 Trolls and 1 Thug). What I should have done was Crack the LED add 3 blue and activate Coliseum prompting him to eat a Troll. In response to that I would crack the 2nd LED for an additional 3 Blue to activate the 2nd Coliseum to bring back the Troll hes targetting and make him ooze it again. This would allow me to have about 5 untouched activations of Cephalid Coliseum, but I would have to take my chances with the 1 Troll and 1 Thug. This would presumbly allow me to still dredge a good amount of my deck and still have a 2nd main phase to cast cards and generate zombies. Instead I decided to wait until EOT to get the Coliseum activations on all 3 Dredgers (thats all I was thinking),but that was a completely terrible plan as hes just going to eat everything on his turn. Lesson Learned!!
Game 2 he forces my outlet and it slows me down enough for him to waste me off my lands and find a relic of progenitus.
0-2, Match Score: 5-2

My dreams are now dashed. I know that my breakers are amazing though with only Alex having better ones after the swiss had concluded. I was hoping I could sneak into 8th, however, it was determined that it would be a clean cut to top 8 ;__; Now I just had to play for top 16 to get myself a $100 and a playmat.

R8: Angel Stax
Game 1. He drops a tabernacle early which makes me sigh. My dredges get me Ichorids which allow me to bring them back at the upkeep to avoid the Tabernacle triggers all together. I keep doing this until I reduce his life to zero.
Game 2. He starts the game with 2 white leyline. He eventually drops a sylvan library with an ethersworn, but I'm not really concerned with those cards. Eventually he also lands a Trinisphere, but its a litte late. Eventually I get to DR an Ashen Rider to exile 1 of the only 2 lands he had. I figured this way he can't play something like a STP to rid himself of the Rider seeing has how he can't play it under his own trinisphere. That and I didn't care about his other permanents.
2-0, Match Score: 6-2

Overall Record: 6-2 for 9th Place finish. It was a fun event despite the ending. Also I hate that SCG is completely shafting the westcoast and we wont really have any noteworthy events for a good amount of time. In any case I'm glad I was able to rep the west. Keep the dredging alive! :U

I'm really sad to hear about you just missing out on top 8 but you still had a good finish at 6-2.

How did your sideboard work out for you? Personally, I'm not comfortable running only a single Firestorm in the sideboard, especially if I don't have Elesh Norn to sweep away creatures. Its nice in that you can always discard 2 cards to it if needed, and I have won several games due to a Firestorm blowout.

I'm also curious how the Putrid Imp/Street Wraith split has been working out for you. I tested 3 Wraiths over 3 Imps at DC and honestly couldn't really say how good they were as I only ever cycled a Wraith once the entire 8 rounds.

I'd also be interested to hear about the Street Wraiths, Que. :smile:

As obvious as it sounds street wraith is good in an opening seven when you got other draw cards in hand. Without draw cards but having dredgers, it seems, imp is the more optimal option. Depending on whether you list puts more or less stock in dread return and targets also may sway your choice. I personally love dredge and am in the process of buying (again) a playset of led's. Street wraith seems great in a vacuum and I'm sure people will have positive results in a deathrite meta, I think it really depends on your opening seven though. I've only goldfished a 2/2 split of imp and wraith and I seem to favor imp, what about 4 wraith and no imp.....I don't know. Que probably has a better answer since he actually played the config competitively.

In my testing. 2/2 split is perfect. I keep a 3rd in the board now. Especially when your opponent surgicals. Cycle in response. Raise your middle finger and continue to grow thy friendly graveyard.

@gibbousm.

I keep going back and forth with Firestorm. My final postition on it currently is that its only ok. Tbh I don't have too many troubles with creature decks because we normally amass a great number of 2/2s that can simply go over the top.

Obviously you mean to hit creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or other utility creatures, however, it forces you to play a reactive game which I don't like. Would you use the firestorm as an outlet on the first available creature to start your engine? In my experience if I wait to get value from Firestorm then I feel like I'm in a losing proposition. Your opponent will also be amassing better cards via Brainstorm and Ponder to disrupt your graveyard strategy with a more permanent based form of hate. This includes cards like Cage and RIP which Firestorm does nothing against.

Firestorm is also a wierd nombo with Bridge from Below since discarding is an additional cost to cast Firestorm. You killing a creature is to your detriment. And idk about you but sometimes I don't actually want to discard more than 2 cards or so because those other cards have better utility. Think about it this way You need to have Firestorm in your opener which is also another ordeal, but then you want to pair it with cards like Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, and other cards better served in your graveyard instead of your draw spells. However, those cards are actually a lot more poor in openers considering games 2 and 3.

No really I just use this card as an additional discard outlet that cannot get countered and thats it.

Regarding Street Wraith I'm just going to copy + paste. Side rant: Idk what it is about the Dredge thread, but sometimes I feel like a broken record when I have
to reiterate points on cards we've probably already discussed. but thats my deal haha. I just hope newer dredge players bother to read the thread instead of just the last couple of pages.. /breath ok lol.

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I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.

Extra dredge + they're live vs Deathrite Decks which ARE coming back. The deck already has plenty of outlets, it can afford to cut on the imps for added utility.

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Regarding the 2/2 split:
The 2/2 split is because I still want to be able to have a fresh body to sac to a Dread Return if I need to. I did utilize it in tournament saving a dredger after a Tormond's Crypt activation. My hand had Careful Study and Coliseum, but no dredgers outside of the 2 in the bin. It allowed me to return the Troll to my hand and continue on with the game. I've also used the wraith in tournaments to blank DRS activations. The fact that MUD is becoming more prevalent is also another appealing reason to run the Wraith since a Chalice on 1 will blank most of your draw spells. Not to mention they play Trinisphere and wasteland. Having the Wraiths gives you additonal gas without the mana investment. :)

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Originally Posted by Que

@gibbousm.

I keep going back and forth with Firestorm. My final postition on it currently is that its only ok. Tbh I don't have too many troubles with creature decks because we normally amass a great number of 2/2s that can simply go over the top.

Obviously you mean to hit creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or other utility creatures, however, it forces you to play a reactive game which I don't like. Would you use the firestorm as an outlet on the first available creature to start your engine? In my experience if I wait to get value from Firestorm then I feel like I'm in a losing proposition. Your opponent will also be amassing better cards via Brainstorm and Ponder to disrupt your graveyard strategy with a more permanent based form of hate. This includes cards like Cage and RIP which Firestorm does nothing against.

Firestorm is also a wierd nombo with Bridge from Below since discarding is an additional cost to cast Firestorm. You killing a creature is to your detriment. And idk about you but sometimes I don't actually want to discard more than 2 cards or so because those other cards have better utility. Think about it this way You need to have Firestorm in your opener which is also another ordeal, but then you want to pair it with cards like Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, and other cards better served in your graveyard instead of your draw spells. However, those cards are actually a lot more poor in openers considering games 2 and 3.

No really I just use this card as an additional discard outlet that cannot get countered and thats it.

Regarding Street Wraith I'm just going to copy + paste. Side rant: Idk what it is about the Dredge thread, but sometimes I feel like a broken record when I have
to reiterate points on cards we've probably already discussed. but thats my deal haha. I just hope newer dredge players bother to read the thread instead of just the last couple of pages.. /breath ok lol.



Regarding the 2/2 split:
The 2/2 split is because I still want to be able to have a fresh body to sac to a Dread Return if I need to. I did utilize it in tournament saving a dredger after a Tormond's Crypt activation. My hand had Careful Study and Coliseum, but no dredgers outside of the 2 in the bin. It allowed me to return the Troll to my hand and continue on with the game. I've also used the wraith in tournaments to blank DRS activations. The fact that MUD is becoming more prevalent is also another appealing reason to run the Wraith since a Chalice on 1 will blank most of your draw spells. Not to mention they play Trinisphere and wasteland. Having the Wraiths gives you additonal gas without the mana investment. :)

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So I don't want to be the new guy who rehashes old things, but I built Dredge a few months back and never had a chance to play it and I have a few questions.

Can you explain the Surgical Extraction and the extra City of Brass in your SB? Also, how often do you find that Mana Confluence vs City of Brass matters? I have every iteration of the deck/sb minus the Confluences because I can't justify paying Standard prices for them, but chances are I'll try out the deck in a tournament sometime soon.

Also, how do you mulligan on games 2 and 3? Is it a toss up of whether to go for speed or anti-hate? I feel like it's hard to get Lotus Petal + Decay along with a good opener.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

I always go putrid first against an unknown opponent. If I'm even playing with the PImp himself.

The other question is a little too vague to answer correctly. It matters a ton if you're in a preboard game, or in g2 or 3. You also have to take into account previous mulligans and if you know what your opponent is playing. If it's game one against an unknown opponent and your opening 7 has 2 study effects but no dredger you should throw it back. On a mull to 5 though those hands become probable keepers. If it's a postboard game things get more complicated since you now need anti hate alongside your outlet, dredger, and land. So if your 7 has a land, 2 Studies, and a Nature's Claim, I would most likely keep. This also depends on my opponents deck and whether they mulliganed or not since they tend to snap mulligan if they have no hate.

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I will keep this in mind!

Anyways I went to a local legacy win a legacy staple tournament yesterday. Got absolutely crushed (which sucks :cry:) but I learned a lot about sequencing, mulliganing, etc. Also probably should try to not make my sideboard the morning off the tournament, turns out that I forgot to put chain of vapors in my board. I don't know if they would have won me any matchup, but it probably would have been nice to have. Most of the games I played were really close, I sort of mulled myself to oblivion in multiple games but I guess that is the nature of dredge.

These were the matchups I played:

0-2 RG Combo Lands
1-2 BUG Delver
1-2 Dark Maverick
2-1 UR Delver

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Originally Posted by Encendi

So I don't want to be the new guy who rehashes old things, but I built Dredge a few months back and never had a chance to play it and I have a few questions.

Can you explain the Surgical Extraction and the extra City of Brass in your SB? Also, how often do you find that Mana Confluence vs City of Brass matters? I have every iteration of the deck/sb minus the Confluences because I can't justify paying Standard prices for them, but chances are I'll try out the deck in a tournament sometime soon.

Also, how do you mulligan on games 2 and 3? Is it a toss up of whether to go for speed or anti-hate? I feel like it's hard to get Lotus Petal + Decay along with a good opener.

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The Surgical Extraction is so you don't auto lose to Reanimator. If they grab Elesh Norn the game is over. They're also ok against storm decks, but not amazing. You can pair it with Cabal Therapy to take away a potential Infernal Tutor or respond to a dangerous PIF by taking something from their GY.

The reason I run a land in my current sb is because I'm not playing the traditional 13 land variant in my maindeck. I don't mind only having 12 lands with my build. I bring in the extra land when I board in the Abrupt Decays alongside my Lotus Petals.

Confluence vs Brass. It doesn't really matter at all. I mean unless your meta is infested with Death and Taxes.. They have port. but yeah don't worry about it.

The boarding. Yes its pretty much at your discretion when to go for speed or antihate. You don't need to necessarily have the Decay in your opener. If your hand is amazing then keep it! If they turn 1 cage you then so be it. Start digging for your anti hate then. If they didn't have their one of then you would have destroyed them. Play the odds my friend.

No Dredge top16 in Dallas. :/


Imho we have 3 cards to assess from Dragons of Tarkir (although I don't really see any making the 75):

Help against lands/enchantress
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...aItGvd4yqT.png

Help against merfolk
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...IwGsp4uP9N.png

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...Jqu8AEoXVr.png

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

No Dredge top16 in Dallas. :/


Imho we have 3 cards to assess from Dragons of Tarkir (although I don't really see any making the 75):

Help against lands/enchantress
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...aItGvd4yqT.png

Help against merfolk
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...IwGsp4uP9N.png

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...Jqu8AEoXVr.png

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I think one has to ask oneself if a card among these posted would at all help when seen in an opening seven considering most of our deck ends up in the graveyard. Unless it's a card that draws, deals with hate or recurs from the grave few cards can be contenders for dredge and I think the first two are just too situational. As far as the dragon goes I think flame kin does a better job at executing our plan. Led dredge is just extremely tight as far as what cards can be considered to replace any of the existing 60, definitely keep your eyes open though. There's lots of big fatties we can dread return to answer different deck strategies.....what's the newer green one that deals with enchantments??

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuv...Jqu8AEoXVr.png

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Being potential Icky food has me listening.
I'm certain this is a very situation (therefore marginal) card choice, however I think this might be useful against some control to some extent also.
That said, the conditional nature of *creature* & *planeswalker* makes me think this guy will just sit in the sideboard for almost every meet....

Not sure, but at the price they're going for, I might give it a test just because. Maybe.

Kolaghan seems a solid choice over FKZ. Maybe just straight better. Lists that run FKZ should definitely test him out. However, he's only good in those lists. Lets see his pros and cons:

+ he is black (= Ichorid food if necesary)
+ he is solid on it's own (nice attacker, marginal ability) whereas FKZ is useless until lethal
+ he's a cool dwagon :P

- doesn't give the +1+1 boost (he is however, a 6 power flyer on it's own)

I think he's worth it. Again, only over the FKZ slot.

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Originally Posted by Mastikor

Kolaghan seems a solid choice over FKZ. Maybe just straight better. Lists that run FKZ should definitely test him out. However, he's only good in those lists. Lets see his pros and cons:

+ he is black (= Ichorid food if necesary)
+ he is solid on it's own (nice attacker, marginal ability) whereas FKZ is useless until lethal
+ he's a cool dwagon :P

- doesn't give the +1+1 boost (he is however, a 6 power flyer on it's own)

I think he's worth it. Again, only over the FKZ slot.

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Cons: Creatures don't have haste anymore if he gets removed.

Just thought about that too. Eh.

FKZ can kill with one less zombie in play, this should be the most important part, imho.

What are we really discussing here? Am I missing something? Where is the knockout punch. This is a 6/5 dragon you're Dread Returning. The target you're getting should flat out win you the game. It shouldn't be a win more card.

With such tight lists often threads like these seem "dead" at times. Often our enthusiasm may get the best of us which leads to "reaching" for certain cards that are really quite sub-par. We don't get too many tools too often which again can lead to a more quiet thread, that and not everyone is comfortable bringing dredge to tournaments. I think match up analysis (from real experience) and tournament results are the best tools for us to become better dredge pilots, rather than reaching for cards (no offense). To get back on track, some talking points:
When entering an unknown meta is it optimal to run natures claim over abrupt decay?
The split between s.wraith and imp, has it improved the decks functionality and against which decks?
Is the quad laser version still more optimal over other more comboish type lists?

I just received my playset of led's so I'm gonna be running this deck in multiple scg events and at my lgs. Again, I believe tournament results from competent pilots will serve the dredge community best. Don't be afraid to run this deck a few weeks in a row at your lgs, I think there's a common misconception that you can't run this deck on a normal basis. Make them have the hate or die.