Being exposed to: wasteland, price of progress, blood moon, back to basics etc... means no penalty for you? Why is it so that any deck wants to play as few duals as possible?Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
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Being exposed to: wasteland, price of progress, blood moon, back to basics etc... means no penalty for you? Why is it so that any deck wants to play as few duals as possible?Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
A format without fetchlands, but with Wasteland still being a thing, would greatly reduce the format diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Are mana bases to good in Legacy? Certainly, but making fetchlands go away would do more harm than it would do good.
Is having an aggro deck tier 1/1.5 too much to ask?
For me personally, Jan-Oct 2013 was pretty damn healthy and balanced (Jund #3, Maverick #7 during that stretch). Obviously there were even more balanced metas before then, but for the most recent example that I can think of, going back to a pre-TNN meta would be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
First let us define "good" and "harm" and then we can know what each of us are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
And it is possible we play in different metas, Wasteland is played, yes. Blood Moon in Painters and some 1.5 decks, sure. But Back to Basics? Price of Progress is a Burn card, and that's the thing that's going to bring all the three color deck to their knees?Quote:
Originally Posted by prateta
I just gave you some examples. Back to basics is played in some UWs and Miracles AFAIK. Have seen it on SCG Open and even at my LGS. From above listed Price of Progress is obviously played the least, it just came to my mind. Maybe there are more cards that are exploiting dual heavy manabases, I just don't know them / can't remember them. But aside of PoP all other three I mentioned need to be considered when building (or just playing) a deck nowadays. My point was - yes, thanks to fetches and duals you can access any mana you want, but it is definitely not without penalty as you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Good: Less decks with greedy mana bases, Brainstorm is less brokenQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Harm: A significantly less diverse metagame because alot of decks would just plain go extinct. This isn't Modern where you can afford to play shitty durdle lands because Wasteland exists. I like a diverse metagame, hence why I'm so up in arms against the current blue dominance because forcing players into blue to be competitive does not contribute to a "real" diverse metagame. U/x/x Delver and UW/x Stoneblade variants all day long isn't diversity, it's just plain boring.
I personally like as little card and color overlap as possible, while still being relatively competitive.
That's silly. The reason BS-specific hate doesn't work is because Brainstorm is not such a problem card/strategy that it deserves explicit resources to be fought over. In contrast to Spirit, Thalia does see so much play not because it is better at hating Brainstorm but because it does more than just attempt to hate Brainstorm. If there was a Bear that read "Players cannot cast the card Brainstorm," it would see exactly zero play. The only reason Spirit is even in contention for playability is because it has potential splash damage elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I agree with you that banning fetchlands would do much more harm than good, but I would disagree that Legacy mana bases are too greedy. This is obviously a relative term and I find that the balance between Stifle/Wasteland/Blood Moon and multicolored mana bases is quite enjoyable and interactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I would still rather see True-Name Nemesis errata'd, but I wouldn't be sad if it were banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I agree, very boring. You think the problems with these decks is the use of Brainstorm. I think the problems lay elsewhere (hint it's in the deck names)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Sooooooooooooooo you're basically just going to abdicate this point then I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by DzraA card should be banned when it hinders format diversity to the point where the only competitive decks either play said card or revolve around specifically preying on said card.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
No more than 2/3 of the winning lists over time should contain a specific color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If being exposed to ideas you dislike disrupts your harmony so much, you should probably just avoid discussion forums. I'm sure somehow we will recover from the loss of your presence.
Finn ran Death and Taxes for years before they printed cards that made it somewhat competitive, but is this a bragging point? If their maindeck REBs and Pyroblasts weren't insanely effective against the format, the deck would perform a lot worse, is that seriously in dispute?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
A card should be banned whenever Wizards randomly decides it should be banned on whatever criteria they decide is justifiable this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
See:
Mystical Tutor - No 1cc tutors (except Entomb, Worldy, Enlightened)
Survival - Banned due to repeatable tutoring, and general high profile player bitching.
Mental Misstep - Banned due to prevalence
Flash - Banned because it put things into play for cheap, however Show and Tell (which puts more than protean hulk into play) is cool.
Time Vault - Banned because it "violates the intended printings" however LED still sees play.
Also of note, these are the ONLY cards banned since the format split. Is brainstorm on power level with the mentioned cards? (actual question). Maybe it's the same as Mystical, but I still think that was a bad ban.
So the top decks when Skullclamp was in Type 2 were Raffinity, Elf and Nail, and Goblin-Bidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Of course, blue's dominance is attributable to multiple good cards existing that are either in the color or easy to splash for. If you are asking what single card most pushes blue over the other colors, it is pretty clearly Brainstorm though. There's arguments for banning other cards instead, but it'd require multiple non-BS bannings to affect a meaningful change in the format's color composition I think.
Obviously a card should be banned when it shows up in a demonstrably infinite number of decks.
That's just common sense.
sent from phone, don't be a dick
Time Vault and Flash are actually just insanely OP without errata.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technics
I mean I guess I agree that Wizards is a bit random and contradictory on this shit though, ain't no one defending Mystical Tutor's banning. Not that I would unban it at this point, already too much blue.
Mono black decks dont exist because of their complete inability to deal with artifacts and enchantments. Thats the only reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
If abrupt decay was BB instead of GB mono black would be a force to be reconed with in legacy
Brainstorm is just the symptom of Wizards various fuck-ups which started to accumulate over the years and with their inaction to deal with it, but it has gotten only worse and worse since ever since Innistrad.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Blue already has the best spells, so it shouldn't have the best beaters, too. TNN was a huge mistake that should be corrected asap with a ban. End of story. Delver is almost as cancerous (which also happens to make Brainstorm better), but at least it has more ways to deal with it.
Utility casters like Snapcaster Mage are fine (even if it would have been more appropriate in red), but stuff that breaks the color pie and makes blue better is just plain annoying. While not broken in any way or form, I'd love to hear why blue needed hand disruption, slapped on an efficient 3/1 flyer, while Maro whines and bitches about Chaos Warp.
@Technics: Flash was banned because it allowed for a ridiculous number of early kills with a high consistency and loads of protection.
Time Vault + Voltaic Key is a 2-card 4 mana "I win" combo, not because of oracle/printed text semantics.
Hey guys, Brainstorm was fine before Delver and TNN got printed.
Hey guys, Survival of the Fittest was fine before Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze got printed.
I wasn't saying Flash or Vault should be in the format, just that the reasoning is funny. Why ban flash over Protean Hulk? Vault is broken with Key DUE to errata (power level being removed). The point is that Wizards defines banning something differently for every card ever banned in Legacy. There is no TRUE "This is why we ban a card" criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Death and Taxes, Jund, Imperial Painter, and Elves are all pretty successful decks that have little* to do with preying on Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
*The best you could offer is a case that Death and Taxes operates by constricting mana, which naturally makes casting multiple cheap spells and cantrips per turn much worse, or that Imperial Painter preys on the color Blue and most Blue decks run Brainstorm. I can't think of any reasonable cases where Elves or Jund are preying on Brainstorm though.
Brainstorm is like a pariah; people see it in a lot of decks and assume that this entails it to be a problem. The problem is twofold, stupid cards like TNN and other colors not having enough ways to manipulate their card quality. It's easy to see that Brainstorm isn't a problem because of the lack of penetration by Brainstorm-hating cards.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just claim that the deck which runs maindeck Red Elemental Blast DOESN'T prey on Brainstorm decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Well he said Brainstorm, not Brainstorm decks, there might be some differences. Playing Reanimator, we run 4x Brainstorm, and while getting a Brainstorm hit with REB is annoying, it isn't really our first or second concern. And I wouldn't really put Reanimator in a group called "Brainstorm Decks" either. Run to gain consistency, but not playing center to the deck's main goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Can any deck really be assumed to be the predator of a single card? Assuming no (because that idea is absurd) we'll assume he meant Brainstorm decks. Claiming that Imperial Painter is not a predator of "Brainstorm decks" is patently ridiculous. We could easily make an argument for DnT and Jund being Brainstorm deck "predators" as well, so I don't even see the point of his post in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Well this is the internet, making arguments is what easy is. But my experience has been that the main deck REB's are well balanced between offense and defense. Painters preys on blue as much as it gets bothered by having its key spells countered. And so I wouldn't really say a deck built to defend itself in a specific environment particularly predatory. A better example would be Stifle used in the tempo shell. It's possible to use the card defensively, save yourself from that lethal storm trigger, but that's a corner case. It's main use is offensive and aggressive. I don't see REB used in the same capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
No one has to devote SB slots to beating Brainstorm. No one has to design their deck while keeping opposing Brainstorms in mind. No one has ever lost a game of Magic because they weren't prepared to face Brainstorm. Brainstorm isn't Mental Misstep; it isn't Survival of the Fittest; it isn't Flash. I mean, it's not even Show and Tell or True-Name Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Imperial Painter is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format is Blue and full of nonbasics. UB Tezz is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format plays weak but efficient 1-drops. Death and Taxes is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format likes to cast the cards in their hand. These decks do not prey on Brainstorm; they prey on various aspects of Legacy the format.
Becasue cards are different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Technics
There's no true flavoring, becasue sometimes you throw dried garlic into your dish, while other times it's vanilla.
FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
You need to play more Vintage, and stop being and ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Some people can't handle the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
The position that a deck with maindeck REBs doesn't take advantage of the prevalence of Brainstorm decks is pretty laughable on its face.
I can do that with a lot of other cards like Bargain, Will, or Black lotus. Saying a card "doesn't win" is the stupidest argument ever and i'm pissed that everytime it's brought up in the case of brainstorm but conveniently forgot for every other card in existence. Talk about intellectual prostitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
For that matter, I'm not sure who ever devoted sideboard slots to beating Mental Misstep.
Why bother, when you could play the Boogieman to stop it? Having said that, bringing in Nix to stop those shenanigans was a weirdly hilarious thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I play that deck a lot, I almost never counter Brainstorm. Save for when I am against Miracles or the guys hand is nearly empty. I normally save the blasts for protection of my combo or locks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
The Painter deck is a anti Blue, Prison deck that wins though bloodmoon locks and Bridge. It just happens to have a combo finish. If Painter could not paint the town blue, you can bet the deck would not run so many blasts.
It's not because of Brainstorm that Painter exists, but blue overall. Yes Brainstorm makes itself felt in blue decks, but if the meta was the same with only Brainstorm removed, Painter would be just as effective.
"If the meta was the same with only Brainstorm removed" is a proposition that makes no sense on its face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Although you probably should consider countering Brainstorm sometimes.
Oh in the right situations I will look at countering it, but the deck works mostly on the lock plan. I would rather protect and land Jaya then stop you drawing 3.
Also the comment makes sense. If the format was the same blue saturated situation minus that one card, it would still be a powerful choice.
Brainstorm is, alongside Force of Will but somewhat more importantly, at the core of the blue package that is dominant in the metagame. Maindeck REB would be drastically worse if it were gone, for reasons far beyond it simply being a potential target.
I thought REB was there to counter TNN more than anything
It causes more butthurt to claim that Brainstorm is the reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Blaming TNN is boring and uninspired.